how to opt out of the new User Profile Component (UPC) in 6.10 and all following releases


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I'd like to opt out of being required to use the new User Profile Component (UPC) in 6.10 and all following releases. How can I do that?

 

If you're unfamiliar with this new feature of 6.10.0, it's the first feature described at the top of the 6.10 release candidate topic.

 

This new requirement, to have my OS connected to limetech's cloud via the new UPC, is appalling to me. Let's suppose some enterprising hackers commandeer limetech's cloud and turn all home servers running unraid into a botnet for some nefarious purpose. I do not want to be exposed to such liability, to be an unwilling participant. Nor do I want my server to appear amongst thousands of other servers in forum dashboards.

 

What is limetech's business purpose for using the information gleaned from our servers? Surely it's more than simply transferring license keys between thumb drives with all the "extras" that UPC enables.

 

Why isn't the community in an uproar about having our personal systems roped into another corporation?

 

Thanks,

- Eric

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12 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

This new requirement,

As stated multiple times, there is absolutely zero requirement for you to log in to the UPC, (or to install MyServers).  Logging in is only required for key replacement.  Everything else is optional and completely opt-in

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13 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

Nor do I want my server to appear amongst thousands of other servers in forum dashboards

Even if you did install MyServers, why would you think that your server would appear in every one else's dashboards?

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34 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

 

Why isn't the community in an uproar about having our personal systems roped into another corporation?

 

Is probably because of this community does not fully understand the implication of this substantial change or they just simply don't care for their privacy.  And most of the limetch folks will just downplay it. And I am sure we will hear all kinds of arguments, pro & cons arguments on the privacy and security aspects.  I for one would like to stay off the grid and it will be nice to have a setting where you can toggle off the UPC from the webUI, so esthetically will look cleaner. I truly doubt that limtech will ever give us these options and probably this "strategic" move is paving the way for a subscription model.  Let's not beat around the bushes here :) 

 

And yes I am very very bitter about this entire move.  One of my purchase decision a year ago was around the ability to run and stay off the grid behind my firewalls /IPS/ IDS. Great product but not anymore.

Edited by johnwhicker
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24 minutes ago, johnwhicker said:

so esthetically will look cleaner.

So I suppose you have issues with every other website in the world also tossing up a login in the top right that you can't get rid of?

 

24 minutes ago, johnwhicker said:

Is probably because of this community does not fully understand the implication of this substantial change

But that's the key.  There is no substantial change....  

 

24 minutes ago, johnwhicker said:

subscription model.

Where have you ever heard it mentioned that this is paving the way for a subscription model?  It has already been stated multiple times that existing features will never be charged for.  If LT wants to start charging for new features then that's completely their prerogative.

 

You want to stay "off the grid" then don't log in.  What's the problem?

 

I don't need to actually log in to Amazon to make a purchase, but if I want to take advantage of their Amazon Prime shipping subscription I do have to log in.  Should I complain to them that 

  • I'm not required to log in to utilize their basic services and yet the log in link is always present?
  • I don't believe that they have the right to charge extra for a subscription service that requires me to be logged in.
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1 hour ago, Squid said:

As stated multiple times, there is absolutely zero requirement for you to log in to the UPC, (or to install MyServers).  Logging in is only required for key replacement.  Everything else is optional and completely opt-in

 

From the RC release topic: "Starting with this release, it will be necessary for a new user to either sign-in with existing forum credentials or sign-up, creating a new account via the UPC in order to download a Trial key.  All key purchases and upgrades are also handled exclusively via the UPC."

 

This is more than key replacement.

 

How much support will be moved to MyServers? Will I no longer be able to submit logs when I have a problem, but instead will have to allow staff onto my machine via UPC and MyServers? Or follow a bug submission process that requires UFC and MyServers?

 

From the RC release topic: "Notification of critical security-related updates.  In the event a serious security vulnerability has been discovered and patched, we will send out a notification to all email addresses associated with registered servers."

 

limetech already has my email address from when I purchased my keys. It is disingenuous to say I have to use UFC to get email notifications.

Edited by eweitzman
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1 hour ago, Squid said:

Even if you did install MyServers, why would you think that your server would appear in every one else's dashboards?

 

From the release topic: "My Servers is what we call our set of cloud-based or cloud-enabled services and features that integrate with your Unraid server(s).  Once installed here are some of the features of My Servers:

My Servers Dashboard - when logged into the forum a new My Servers menu item appears. Clicking this brings up a Dashboard which displays a set of tiles representing each signed-in server Here you can see real-time status such as whether the server is online or offline, storage utilization and other information.  In addition, links are created to bring up a server webGUI, either locally on the LAN or remotely over the Internet (if Remote Access has been enabled)."

 

It says, "each signed-in server". There will be thousands of signed-in servers. I can't see why limetech would display all servers in a dashboard to all users...

Edited by eweitzman
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1 hour ago, Squid said:

Because it's not a big deal you don't have to do it if you don't want to. 

Ironic. I would have posted this topic in the MyServers sub-forum, but following regulation Catch-22, I had to install 6.10.0-rc, turn on UFC, and set up the MyServers plug-in to comment there.

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30 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

From the RC release topic: "Starting with this release, it will be necessary for a new user to either sign-in with existing forum credentials or sign-up, creating a new account via the UPC in order to download a Trial key.  All key purchases and upgrades are also handled exclusively via the UPC."

Still key related.  In order to get or replace a key you need to be signed in.  Sign out afterward

30 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

How much support will be moved to MyServers? Will I no longer be able to submit logs when I have a problem, but instead will have to allow staff onto my machine via UPC and MyServers?

You don't need to do that now.  You won't need to ever do that in the future....  Downloading diagnostics and then uploading them to the forum / reddit / discord etc has nothing to do with the UPC, nor will it ever will

 

30 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

From the RC release topic: "Notification of critical security-related updates.  In the event a serious security vulnerability has been discovered and patched, we will send out a notification to all email addresses associated with registered servers."

Fair point.  Except to say that while they have your email address via registering the key, they also have absolutely no clue as to what version of the OS you're running.  The same key file works for all versions of the OS past, present and future.  IF you want to receive those types of notifications (if they ever send one), then it only makes sense that you'd be logged in so that the system would be able to discern if it's even applicable to you.  Note that the vast majority of notifications are sent by your server itself relating to its own health and once again have absolutely nothing to do with the UPC

25 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

It says, "each signed-in server".

You're misinterpreting the statement.  It means YOUR signed-in servers.  You do not see, nor will you ever see any one else's servers and they do not see yours.

 

image.thumb.png.3a289e80a1062ba617c4ba345bade1c4.png

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22 minutes ago, Squid said:

 

You don't need to do that now.  You won't need to ever do that in the future....  Downloading diagnostics and then uploading them to the forum / reddit / discord etc has nothing to do with the UPC, nor will it ever will

 

 

If licensing moves to UFC now, and security notifications to MyServer now, it's pretty much inevitable that bug reports and support requests and diagnostics will move to UFC/MyServers in the future. Using unraid with these new requirements will be just like most web properties now. Yet this is not a web-hosted application! Your comparison with amazon, a web-hosted business, is not correct. Windows or OS/X or iOS or spying for Microsoft or Apple are better analogs to what's going on here.

 

FYI, I was not misinterpreting "each signed-in server". Most users (and I) only have one, and since everything is linked via UFC to a forum login, it's only reasonable to read the release notes in this context where "each" is "all", not "just yours". Perhaps the author should edit the post if only the user's server/servers are shown.

 

I appreciate that you're a developer and have some insight into what's being built, but I don't think you represent limetech or can predict what will follow the camel's nose into the tent. It's pretty much guaranteed that any behavioral surplus freely given to limetech by tying our operating systems into limetech's forum and cloud will get monetized with negative consequences for our privacy.

Edited by eweitzman
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@Squid Thanks for adding that screenshot of My Servers to your post. Seems like you have quite a few servers --- I hope nobody cracks the protocol and installs some "security" updates that commandeer your machines in the future.

 

I personally don't see any use case for having that information accessible by logging into the forum. It would only be useful to possibly administer my one server (or more if I had more) remotely over the web when that eventually happens, right?. I don't intentionally expose my machines outside my lan so I don't need this.

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3 minutes ago, Michael_P said:

so I'll just stick on 6.8.3,

Entirely your choice, but once again there is NO requirement to log in, no requirement to allow remote access.  It's only to handle key purchases and exchanges

 

And, by sticking on 6.8.3 you're going to be missing out on new features, security enhancements etc.

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6 minutes ago, Squid said:

It's only to handle key purchases and exchanges

 

Then why the ginormous sign-in icon in the header? I'm already signed in to the server. It smacks of future intentions, and us tin-foil hat wearers default to nefarious, unfounded or not. Just rubs me the wrong way. Same with M$ - I have a Microsoft account, personally and professionally. They already have my "data". But still, requiring an unrelated account and nagging me when I don't want to associate them just to login to MY MACHINE to use software I PAY FOR, just annoys me - especially when it provides absolutely no benefit to me.

 

Seriously, the sign-in nag in the header is huge. If it's not necessary, it should be smaller or better yet, on the admin page.

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2 hours ago, DarphBobo said:

I don't need to actually log in to Amazon to make a purchase, but if I want to take advantage of their Amazon Prime shipping subscription I do have to log in.  Should I complain to them that 

  • I'm not required to log in to utilize their basic services and yet the log in link is always present?
  • I don't believe that they have the right to charge extra for a subscription service that requires me to be logged in.

The Amazon analogy is poor at best. unRaid is nothing like Amazon mate, c'mon you know that.  As I said, many will argue and try to downplay this but reality that this is a bad design choice and I wish some of us can opt out without being told "you need to be signed in.  Sign out afterward"

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32 minutes ago, Squid said:

Entirely your choice, but once again there is NO requirement to log in, no requirement to allow remote access.  It's only to handle key purchases and exchanges

 

And, by sticking on 6.8.3 you're going to be missing out on new features, security enhancements etc.

 

Respectfully mate, this is not our "choice" . We're being FORCED into this new options and we do not have a choice , so yes you're forcing us "to be missing out on new features, security enhancements etc".  Is funny how you put it back on end users because is that much easier than listening and making such simple adjustments. 

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53 minutes ago, eweitzman said:

support requests and diagnostics will move to UFC/MyServers in the future

Free support has always been on the forum, you have to be logged into the forum to post to it, the forum is the best feature of Unraid, and the forum users provide that free support so that limetech doesn't have to. Why would they want to take support off the forum?

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36 minutes ago, Squid said:

Absolutely 100% true.  But here it is from the CTO of limetech

 

 

Thanks for the video. I have the "confusion in the user base" Jon spoke of in the video. I didn't use MyServers in 6.9 so was never exposed to UPC. And the features of MyServers in the 6.10.0-rc topic are of course tied to UPC and I didn't make a clean distinction between the two.

 

That said, pretty much all guarantees and clarifications Jon made in the video relate to UPC, and pretty much all my concerns relate to snooping in MyServers. He only gives guarantees regarding UPC. Here's a transcript of the relevant part, my best effort to be accurate, but not 100% guaranteed:

 

Quote

[some users have] concern about signing with an online account on their local server

 

our promise to you is that when the UPC is signed in, no information is sent nor is an active connection maintained to our cloud infrastructure

 

the only thing that is different from 6.9 in this regard is that once signed in to the UPC, if you navigate to the MyServers page on forums.unraid.net you will see the ability to manually download your registration key ...

in addition, if you do not want to remain signed in on your local server, you can sign out after your local key has been installed

...

some people in the community have a fear that because of the UPC and MyServers, that we are working our way to
ending our ability for existing registration key owners to get updates for the OS
hear me loud and clear today please, this is not the case
we will always remain true and loyal to our customer base and never pull the rug out from under our users

...

folks that purchased keys back then [2005] are still receiving updates for the OS
i want to ... personally thank all keyholders from back then

 

 

The last sentence seems to imply that I could get key service without using UPC since I'm a long time customer. That would be nice. But it actually implies OS updates only.

 

Still, my real concern is not an active connection between the key management backend and my server via UPC, but between MyServers, limetech's cloud backend, and the forum. There will inevitably be a loss of support-related features if I stay opted out of MyServers, and an increase in the attack surface for all unraid systems that are connected. As long as I can stay opted out of MyServers, it should be okay, so long as yet another company won't require that I hand over my privacy for licenses and services already paid for.

 

 

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22 minutes ago, trurl said:

Free support has always been on the forum, you have to be logged into the forum to post to it, the forum is the best feature of Unraid, and the forum users provide that free support so that limetech doesn't have to. Why would they want to take support off the forum?

I've received lots of help on this forum over the years. I've also had lots of issues that haven't been answered here. Jon actually mentions that problem in the video as one motivation for building MyServers, to make things easy for "less sophisticated users" who run into dead ends. But the forum is full of obsolete posts, obsolete documentation, unsolved problems, dated information he also acknowledges as a problem for users. Please note that I'm not taking potshots at community members who provide support on this forum. There are too many users, too many problems, too many new features with, unfortunately, too many bugs. Limetech and the forum has been doing a precarious balancing act for years.

 

If limetech wants to continue scaling, they need to automate support requests and provide better support. UPC and MyServers appear to be a step in that direction. As pointed out earlier, through that mechanism, they get fuller info about the server being supported.

Edited by eweitzman
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15 minutes ago, Squid said:

How are you being FORCED on a purely opt-in system?

If his thumb drive breaks, he's FORCED to opt in to continue using unraid if the only way to authorize a new thumb drive is via UPC. (How he would do that with a server that won't boot is another Catch-22). If he wants to comment on MyServers in the MyServers sub-forum, he's FORCED to opt in. If he wants to make use of new features that are only made available to opted-in users in the future, he'll be FORCED to opt in. In the video, Jon mentions the difficulty of setting up secure remote access and how MyServers simplifies that. If he wants to use that feature, he's FORCED to opt in. Come to think of it, if he chooses to not opt in, he becomes a second-class user.

Edited by eweitzman
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Pre-6.10 release: if someone wants to try out Unraid with a Trial key they have to give us an email address.  When someone makes a key purchase they have to give us an email address.  Hence we already have email/key database, i.e., "accounts".  The primary purpose of the UPC is to now make these accounts accessible by users.  We leveraged the IPS (forum) member capabilities to do this.  That is why we enabled 2-factor authentication for the forum.

 

When you "sign-up" via a sever we create an association between the account screen name/email address and the particular key GUID.  If you already have a forum account then "sign-in" will do the same association.  This lets us simplify a great deal of support having to do with keys.  You also get a nice "dashboard" (the My Servers menu option) that shows all your servers.  In order to show this dashboard, the sign-up/sign-in process will upload your server name and description.  This is so we can present a link to your webGUI on your LAN.  But of course this is a local IP address and only works if you click from a browser running in a PC on the same LAN.  We don't send up any other info and the code that doing the sending up is open source in the webGUI - you can examine and see this.

 

If you don't want to use your forum account to associate with your keys, then just create a different forum account.

 

Yes, having "accounts" will open the door for us to provide "cloud based" services.  For example you can install our My Servers plugin and get real-time status of your server presented on the dashboard as well as automatic flash configuration backup.  If you don't want this, don't install the plugin.  If you don't want your server to appear "signed in" then sign out.  For those who think the will never sign-in and are disturbed by having a "sign in" link in your header - well we will consider cosmetic changes.

 

No doubt some may have more questions and want more details.  So let's do this: go ahead and fire away but please ask only one question or ask for only one clarification per post and I'll try to answer them all until we're all exhausted. 8)

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