[SOLVED] How to spec a UPS for clean-shutdown purposes only?

[VelcroBP]

I need to get a replacement UPS. I have only ever configured mine to immediately issue a clean shutdown after more than 5 minutes outage. That said, I think my previous UPS (APC Back-Ups BE550G) is underpowered at only 330watts/550VA. I say this because I just ran NewEgg's psu calculator and it estimates my system draws ~380watts. Does this mean that my BE550G isn't actually protecting my system, or am I not understanding the VA/watts, runtime till shutdown, or other parameters? If that's the case, how do I estimate how much VA/Watts I need out of a UPS? Again I'm just looking for bare minimum protection so my system has time to do a clean shutdown when needed.

 

Any clarification would be appreciated since I'm really confused by all the similar specs out there and varying prices. I'm on a very tight budget and hope to spend the minimum on this (which would be a replacement battery for my current UPS). 

 

Thanks in advance!

[Squid]

If you UPS goes into Overload (there's usually a very annoying alert they make in that circumstance) when the server is running full tilt then yes it's underpowered.  With full load (say running a parity check while you're doing whatever else you do) what is the estimated time on battery when looking at the UPS settings?

[Ford Prefect]

On 2/18/2022 at 9:25 PM, VelcroBP said:

Any clarification would be appreciated since I'm really confused by all the similar specs out there and varying prices. I'm on a very tight budget and hope to spend the minimum on this (which would be a replacement battery for my current UPS). 

You cannot simply beef up your actual UPS with a battery that has higher specs (Ah).

A battery with higher energy storage would enable your UPS to last longer, so basically you are correct.

But as said above, if load (real Power, W) required is higher than that of your UPS is specified for, the converter (from DC to AC inside) is the real problem.

 

The peak power draw of your system needs to be matched by the nominal power specs of the UPS, too. This is because the power will be drawn through the inverter circuit (and fuses) of the UPS. This value is mainly driven by the number of HDDs inside your system and occurs when your system boots up. A 3.5" disk will draw around 20-25W (when the motor is spinning up the platters inside) and upon boot all of these will need to spin up at once (there is a thing called staggered spinup to reduce this, but this is not necessarily working well - if present at all in your system).

 

Your PSU is specified for 550W.

So if you do not experience any problems when booting or when the system is at high load. This value (or with an extra headroom +10%) is a good spec for the UPS to get.

If you want to go as low as possible, you could also measure the peak wattage used during boot and/or maximum load with a digital power meter that has the ability to measure peak wattage.

If you don*t own one, often your electricity network operator often lend portable energy meters (these go between your device/system and your power outlet) to customers...ask at the customer service store.

[VelcroBP]

thanks for the detailed response. I have ordered a watt meter to determine my system levels

To clarify: if I get a replacement battery it will be their official part for my specific UPS model. I understand that I cannot upgrade by simply installing a larger capacity battery. Apologies for that confusion I'm my original post.

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[Ford Prefect]

37 minutes ago, VelcroBP said:

To clarify: if I get a replacement battery it will be their official part for my specific UPS model. I understand that I cannot upgrade by simply installing a larger capacity battery. Apologies for that confusion I'm my original post.

Not really a confusion here, I think.

You *could* install a larger capacity (as long as the rated voltage of the battery is the same).

However:

• if the UPS would detect the higher capacity or if this would result in a longer support/run time is not guaranteed.
  Normally the UPS would shut down before the batteries are completely drawn/depleted (preventing an undervoltage and which would cause damage to the batteries), leaving a lower base capacity (typically 20%) unused. in order to do to so, the nominal capacity needs to be known first. If you cannot adjust it or if the UPS will not determine it via a complete measurement cycle, an enhanced capacity would go unnoticed.
• the limiting factor is the inverter and its nominal power rating, which is independent of the battery capacity

Hence both requirements need to be matched.

 

47 minutes ago, VelcroBP said:

I have ordered a watt meter to determine my system levels

...tell us what you find out and maybe we can help in assessing the options with you.

[VelcroBP]

...tell us what you find out and maybe we can help in assessing the options with you.

Will do, thanks in advance!

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[VelcroBP]

...tell us what you find out and maybe we can help in assessing the options with you.

After 2.5 days My server’s max draw was 164.4 watts.

I’ve gone ahead and ordered an APC replacement battery for my BE550G. I need something asap and don’t have the funds to upgrade at the moment.

Ideally I’d like to upgrade in the near future. I’ll be looking for a unit with at least 7 battery outlets. This is so I can also run basic internet gear and Ooma for landline after the server shuts down. I’m testing each piece with the meter but estimate about 70 watts for the WiFi & phone. I’m including the modem, router, switch, Ooma, landline base, and WiFi AP (RJ45 w/ power injector).


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[ConnerVT]

Back of napkin math says you will need, at a minimum, a 1000VA / 700W UPS.  Bigger would be better.

 

Some things to note:

-- You aren't likely to have 7 battery powered outlets.  You will likely see units with 4 battery backed up outlets + 4 outlets with just surge protection.

-- With a 250W draw, a unit with a new battery will give you around 30 minutes of run time.  This runtime will decrease as the battery ages.

-- You typically do not wish to run the batteries down below 50%.  Not good for longevity of the battery, and takes hours to charge back up to full.

-- Along with the time to wait until starting shut down, you need add time it takes for the server to cleanly shut down - Stop running services, dockers and such;, stop array; etc. 

 

So the 5 minutes to start shut down (from your original post) plus perhaps another 5 minutes to clean power down, with the other points from above, puts you in a 1000VA UPS.  That's before considering what if the power goes out for 4 minutes, comes back on, goes out another minute or 2...  May sound improbable, but exactly the type of thing I see during storms.

[VelcroBP]

Thanks for breaking it down for me. I've noticed that in order to get more outlets I was ending up around or above 1000VA anyway.

5 minutes ago, ConnerVT said:

-- You aren't likely to have 7 battery powered outlets.  You will likely see units with 4 battery backed up outlets + 4 outlets with just surge protection.

I've seen units with 5+5 and 6+4. Hopefully APC  makes something with 8+? Otherwise it's a dealbreaker since that is the minimum devices needed to maintain internet/Ooma landline. Although I could get by with a 6+4 if I ditch the WiFi. 

 

In all likelihood you're right and I won't find anything consumer grade with more than 6+4. In that case I'll have to use both a new unit and my current BE550G for the lower draw items.

 

Thanks again for all the input!

[Vr2Io]

Really don't understand the purpose of order a battery. And what current main problem.

[VelcroBP]

3 minutes ago, Vr2Io said:

Really don't understand the purpose of order a battery.

I don't understand. Why wouldn't I order a replacement battery if I already have an otherwise functioning UPS? 

 

3 minutes ago, Vr2Io said:

And what current main problem.

Could you rephrase?

[Vr2Io]

6 minutes ago, VelcroBP said:

Could you rephrase?

Do you complaint your UPS only provide 5min protection for 165w loading ?

[VelcroBP]

Do you complaint your UPS only provide 5min protection for 165w loading ?

Not at all. I was looking for guidance on what level of protection I needed to be shopping for in a replacement. I didn't quite understand how a UPS functions and wasn't considering all scenarios. It has been explained to me as well as how to estimate and what to factor in.

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[ConnerVT]

You can always plug a power strip or outlet octopus into the UPS.  Especially for the several low power units (modem, phone, etc.).

[Vr2Io]

2 minutes ago, VelcroBP said:

Not at all. I was looking for guidance

Fine. So, thats also why I said why you buy a new battery. BTW, if it is battery degrade issue then a new battery would help.

[VelcroBP]

You can always plug a power strip or outlet octopus into the UPS.  Especially for the several low power units (modem, phone, etc.).

That’s an excellent idea, thanks!


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[S80_UK]

36 minutes ago, ConnerVT said:

You can always plug a power strip or outlet octopus into the UPS.  Especially for the several low power units (modem, phone, etc.).

That is also what I do.  I colour coded the multi-way block so that I can easily see that it has a different purpose (it's under my desk).  It handles the cable modem router, a couple of switches, and a KVM switch.  The servers and my main PC go direct to the UPS.  You just have to be careful that someone else can't come along and plug in a vacuum cleaner...

[JonathanM]

43 minutes ago, S80_UK said:

You just have to be careful that someone else can't come along and plug in a vacuum cleaner...

Sometimes baby proofing plugs are necessary for the "adults" in the room as well.

 

Block off unused outlets with plastic baby plugs duct taped in place. Easy enough to remove when you need to rejigger something, but enough of a deterrent to make someone think twice about utilizing a "free" plug spot.

 

1 hour ago, ConnerVT said:

You can always plug a power strip or outlet octopus into the UPS.

Just don't use a surge protector. Added power conditioning circuits on the output of a UPS can make them angry. A cheap outlet splitter is a good choice.

[Ford Prefect]

After 2.5 days My server’s max draw was 164.4 W

...did you measure also the Power draw upon boot?
This number is not that high/only half of what you got from the calculator, isn't it?
Tell us more about your System, especially number of 3 5" HDDs.

What is the given runtime at 50% load of your actual UPS?
In order to properly shutdown the server, maybe 10mins is good enough...look in the ups datasheet.

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[VelcroBP]

Just don't use a surge protector. Added power conditioning circuits on the output of a UPS can make them angry. A cheap outlet splitter is a good choice.

Really good tip, thanks!

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[VelcroBP]

did you measure also the Power draw upon boot?
This number is not that high/only half of what you got from the calculator, isn't it?
Tell us more about your System, especially number of 3 5" HDDs.

I booted the server while plugged in to the meter and also performed a reboot.

Specs are:

- 3.5 HDD x 8
- SSD x 2
- Xeon E3 1246 Haswell
- Supermicro MBD-X10SLHFO uATX
- 16gb ECC DDR3
- AOC-SASLP-MV8 Supermicro


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[Ford Prefect]

12 minutes ago, VelcroBP said:

I booted the server while plugged in to the meter and also performed a reboot.

did you get the meter reading by just looking at it during boot or does it provide something like a stored value for P-max, which you can fetch/read separately?

Also, how exact is it? Did you compare its reading with a 100W light bulb (no LED), for example?

 

12 minutes ago, VelcroBP said:

- 3.5 HDD x 8
- SSD x 2
- Xeon E3 1246 Haswell
- Supermicro MBD-X10SLHFO uATX
- 16gb ECC DDR3
- AOC-SASLP-MV8 Supermicro

I'd estimate something like 250W (8x20 + 2x6 + 40 + 20 + 10 + 10 = 252, as the lower end) during boot 

[VelcroBP]

The meter has a max watt mode. That is where I got the reading.

The meter is a kuman KW47-US. It was the recommended one on Amazon.

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[Ford Prefect]

I canot vouch for that meter, but should you trust its measuremnets, your current UPS with 330W peak is good for 7.5mins runtime (running at 50%)...this should be OK for a proper shutdown (although double would be better, of course).