Cloud Storage Discussion

[toby9999]

 

@squirrellydw:

Your post was a complete troll.  It didn't add anything constructive to the discussion.  It didn't say WHY you think $100 for 100GB is expensive.  It didn't offer your "cheap" alternative and benefit the readers of the thread.  I would suggest that you are missing the point - there are certainly cheaper ways of getting cloud storage (I honestly know of a number of services that offer unlimited storage for $50/year, no joke) BUT each one is lacking something important such as usability or security and therefore either can't be used or require additional code to be written to plug the holes.  If you know of a solid service that "ticks all the boxes" and is cheaper than $100/100GB, please share.  I'm certainly open to learning about new services (such as Crashplan and Wuala) - I wasn't even aware of SpiderOak until yesterday - it's easy for good stuff to go unnoticed on the internet.

 

 

A troll??? I don't think so, all I was saying is that is WAY more than I would spend.   I will wait to see what Apple and Google come up with.

 

@squirrellydw:

What is your target $/GB?  What would you consider to be an acceptable price?  What are you looking for in cloud storage (what features etc)?  I'm genuinely interested in your point of view as its an opportunity for me to broaden my perspective on what people are looking for/expecting from cloud storage, and to compare that to my own expectations.

 

Also, as Aiden correctly stated, because trust is such an important issue when it comes to throwing your precious data into the cloud, looking at the motivations of the company behind the service is important.  Apple are certainly driven by profits and in my opinion would have no qualms messing with users' data if they could make a buck from it and get away with it.  Google, in spite of all their "we're the good guys, trust us" hype, are still a big company driven by profits, and they actually have a vested interest in NOT encrypting your data because one of their main strategies has been to have automated processes (programming code) trawl your searches and email for keywords to trigger advertisements.  Of course they would want to do the same thing with any of your uploaded documents!  But you can't trawl if the data is encrypted.  So if it's not encrypted, what's to stop their employees (or a government via a subpoena) reading all your email, or viewing all the files you've uploaded to them?  Strong, correctly implemented encryption is the ONLY mechanism that offers any real protection and peace of mind.

 

@aiden:

I appreciate your kind words.  Yep, the "cloud" buzz word kinda bugs me too, but I use it in place of anything better I can find.  I've been in touch with SpiderOak's marketing person, and she is going to send me the results of a recent analysis she's done comparing SpiderOak to other providers.  At my request, she's now researching crashplan and adding it to her findings.  I'll post her report once I receive it.  Should make interesting reading (although probably will be a bit biased towards SpiderOak of course).

 

Lastly, something I'm realising is that cloud storage offerings are one of those things that seem really simple on the surface, but actually have a lot going on underneath.  The more you dig, the more questions you start to ask, and the more digging you need to do.  I suppose one approach would be to make a HUGE spreadsheet comparing possibly hundreds of features between all the different providers, but it would be a big undertaking and even then, would probably come down to which features were most important to each person (ie no one perfect provider because different people want different things).

 

@sunnyville:

Just wanted to clarify something - yes there is the dropbox like approach in WUALA, i.e a mapped network drive on your desktop representing your online storage. HOWEVER there is also the option, once you have become a "pro user" by trading storage, to select folders on your hard disk to be backed up to the cloud.

Good to know.  It's great to have the freedom to approach your backups in the way that works best for you.

ANOTHER option is to synchronize folders across computers. So in my case, I have a download folder for...things....on my macbook and on my pc. This folder is constantly synchronized, so if my laptop downloads an episode, it will appear on my pc as well.

SpiderOak also has the sync feature - very useful.

 

There are definitely a LOT of similarities between SpiderOak and Wuala, but actually one thing that seems to be missing from SpiderOak is the "cloud drive" feature.  Specifically, I mean a drive that appears on your computer (ie looks like a local drive) but actually points to your cloud storage.  This then allows a lot of applications to just reference the drive normally and use it's contents.  It also leads to iOS apps (such as office apps) possibly having the ability to save files edited on the mobile device directly to the cloud.  Dropbox has this sort of integration with Dataviz's Docs To Go app (which allows MS office docs to be viewed and edited on your iDevice).  I'd love to see Dataviz (and others) add support for Wuala's network drive, and I'd love to see SpiderOak add the cloud drive feature.

 

And now back to discussing SpiderOak ;-)......or rename thread to "Cloud Storage discussion" or something?

Actually I agree that this thread would be more useful as a generic cloud storage discussion (I've given up on the idea of trying to raise some funds for Lime Technology - not sure what the answer is there, ie how to prompt some further development work on unraid (that's based on my own assumption that not much seems to be happening in the past couple of months)).

[S80_UK]

...I've given up on the idea of trying to raise some funds for Lime Technology - not sure what the answer is there, ie how to prompt some further development work on unraid (that's based on my own assumption that not much seems to be happening in the past couple of months....

I think that if there was a sufficient critical mass of users favouring a particular approach, whether SpiderOak or some other, then if it fitted with Lime Technology's business model to do so, they could offer such a facility as part of the unRAID package.  This could either be a way of increasing unRAID sales with a wider feature set or it could provide an additional revenue channel from the cloud storage provider.  I applaud the sentiment behind the idea of encouraging users to sign up for a service that may benefit Lime technology, but I am not sure that some wouldn't question the rationale unless LT were directly providing some kind of support.

 

Me - I'm still on the fence.  Both SpiderOak and Wuala look interesting at this point.  I don't like Dropbox - too easy to lose stuff, no access permissions for other users of your data (like read-only).

[boof]

I appreciate your kind words.  Yep, the "cloud" buzz word kinda bugs me too, but I use it in place of anything better I can find.  I've been in touch with SpiderOak's marketing person, and she is going to send me the results of a recent analysis she's done comparing SpiderOak to other providers.  At my request, she's now researching crashplan and adding it to her findings.  I'll post her report once I receive it.  Should make interesting reading (although probably will be a bit biased towards SpiderOak of course).

 

 

I'd be very interested to read this once available. If it's not something that should be posted up here (for whatever reason - at spideroaks request) but still distributable could you pm me with details once available?

 

Actually I agree that this thread would be more useful as a generic cloud storage discussion (I've given up on the idea of trying to raise some funds for Lime Technology - not sure what the answer is there, ie how to prompt some further development work on unraid (that's based on my own assumption that not much seems to be happening in the past couple of months)).

 

With only a hint of flippancy at some point in the not so distant future we probably won't need / care about local storage. We can have it all online. The storage infrastructure and pricing tiers are pretty much already there - it's just bandwidth and connectivity that needs to catch up.

 

So we might have all our data 'in the cloud' before limetech can do many more updates

 

I actually wrote a paper 10-12 years ago and predicted we'd see a rise in online storage / offsite data business models as storage costs went down and bandwidth went up. I didn't quite expand to the whole 'cloud' concept or to the feature set current online storage offerings provide. But at the time such a thing seemed very futuristic. Having bulk storage online with 'fast enough' access to it to be able to use it for streaming media, day to day file related tasks is a comparable step forward.

 

Clocks ticking.

[sunnyville]

@toby9999 - you write of "acceptable price" and that made me think of something I keep reading all over the web, and that is that storage is not as cheap as it may seem at first glance. Yes a 2TB HD can be bought for $70, but then the entire infrrastructure around that, even if you are renting rackspace in a Datacenter, costs money (for example redundancy). I have been intrigued by Cloud storage for a long time, and numerous companies have sprung up becuase they managed to get funding from somewhere (venture funding usually), they then oversell by offering enormous, if not unlimited, amounts of space for a comparatively low price. The only way that the company will stay alive is if they manage to get x amount of subscribers before funds run out. From what I have read, Backblaze had taken this approach, however they managed to make their business profitable. Anyways, what I am trying to say is that 100$ for 100GB might seem a lot, but then again maybe it is not.

 

@S80_UK - I loved Dropbox until recently, where I discovered how easy it was for other people to access my data. I realised how foolish it was of me to use this online hard drive day in day out blindly trusting Dropbox - moved to Wuala.

 

@boof - all the data in the cloud is a scary thought. Yes I like the cloud for backup of my backup or for easy data transfers between computers etc. But my main storage should stay at my house. Just feels better. I remember reading about those microsoft mobile phones a couple of years back (some A-list celebrities in the US had them). They had everything online, photos, addressbook, etc. Everytime you switched it on it would download this data and display it. So in actual fact nothing was saved to the phone (correct me if I misremember). Then one day the servers crashed, no recovery possible, all the customers lost all their data. So much for the cloud ,-)

[squirrellydw]

I just think that price is WAY to high for only 100GB.  I am not to worried about privacy with my photos, music and movies, nothing exciting to see.  As for the government not being able to access your data, trust me they can get it.  Apple, Google and Spider are all in business to make money.  I trust Apple more than Google but I have never trusted Google.  Not trying to start a war, it's just my opinion.

[dgaschk]

Abusing the unlimited versioning to provide infinite storage is not hard to invision. It requires a front end application that interfaces with spideroak as a backend. The front end provides a view of an infinite number of files.

 

Let's say a file is 2MB in size. I write 1000 such files. I've used my 2GB limit. Now I want to write one more file. Instead of creating a new file, I update the first file I wrote with the contents of the new file.

 

In order to read my first original file I first read the new version of the first file and write it as an update to the second file. Now I roll back the first file to the original and read my first original file. I've turned 2GB of free storage onto 2.001GB of free storage.

 

The technique in this example can be used to implement an application that provides a local directory that is infinite in size using a free spideroak account as the backend.

 

The application will store files of any size in 2MB chunks on the cloud. 1000 2MB chunks are managed as stacks. The "Towers of Hanoi" problem provides insight on how the stacks are managed. Proof by induction is trivial.

[aiden]

... I am not to worried about privacy with my photos, music and movies, nothing exciting to see.

 

This is where you will find a difference of opinion.  While I agree there's "nothing exciting to see", I still have enormous issues with anyone having access to ANYTHING personal of mine or my family's without my permission or knowledge.  I also back up my tax returns, blueprints of my house, retirement information, etc, and I'll be damned if I allow THAT information to be mined or accessed.

[EasyME]

spideroak storage looks pretty cool.. haven't signup yet, but if it's going to allow me to have history of my files looks like a good winner.

For those that wish to signup there's a coupon code that good for 25% off.

 

the coupon code is spring

 

 

[toby9999]

I've attached a report I received from SpiderOak's marketing person comparing their product to others.  I've also asked her to compare to crashplan and wuala.

SpiderOak_Vs._The_Others.....pdf

[Rajahal]

Pretty obvious that SpiderOak is the best out of those options, but no comparison to Wuala unfortunately.

[sunnyville]

I have used mozy, carbonite and am now using backblaze as a backup solution. I find that it is somewhat strange to compare SpiderOak, which seems to be an amalgamation of different types of services (backup, online storage, filesharing) to a service such as backblaze which is focused solely on backing up your data. So of course backblaze will receive less checkmarks in that little table SpiderOak provided, but it is also an entirely different service.

 

You could do a chart comparing backblaze, mozy, crashplan and carbonite, and a separate chart comparing SpiderOak, Wuala, Dropbox, and ZumoDrive/ZumoCast.

[Rajahal]

Yeah, that occurred to me as well.  Still, if SpiderOak is able to offer everything that Backblaze does and more, then why not use it?

[sunnyville]

Well, for one, backblaze has saved me before so I will trust them ;-) They also offer unlimited storage (they currently hold over 1TB of my data) and offer next day delivery of external HD's containing your Data if it's too much to download.

[Rajahal]

I thought Backblaze's 'unlimited' claim was actually limited by file size?  Is that not the case?

[sunnyville]

The file size limit is 9GB. I think that is quite reasonable. I have the odd ProRes video File that is a bit bigger, but only very few.

[Rajahal]

I agree, that's reasonable, but I would still rather have no limit at all.  A 4 GB limit would be a deal breaker for me.

[toby9999]

Yep, she is doing a crashplan comparison and hopefully also for wuala.

 

Sunnyville is right, you really need to look at what you want from your service.  A *real* comparison would possibly contain hundreds of criteria points.

 

But some aspects should be a fundamental regardless of what your goals are, such as strong encryption, never trusting the provider etc.  Sadly some providers try to gloss over their lack of good security.

[Loch]

Having just read about Wuala the other day, both of these are intriguing. It seems they both provide high user security so no one else should be able to access your files. But to me, the eye-catching features are a) the distributed nature of Wuala as well as b) the sharing option for Wuala, where you can increase your available space by sharing space on your own system... for free. A side-by-side comparison would be nice, although one must acknowledge where it is coming from.

[EasyME]

 

I'm new at this so I have to ask the NOOB question.

 

if on waula you are sharing diskspace with others (trading) and decide to "Quit doing it" does this mean all the data of the user that was using your storage for archive also gets wiped ?

 

if that's the case are we confronted with the same issue , say we hit/store data on some user(s) share who didn't pay their ISP that month and is now disconnected ?

 

just a NOOB question, I'm certain I'm missing something here.

[toby9999]

Nah, the data is also stored on wuala's central servers.

[Johnm]

I am still a bit sceptical of cloud computing myself. especially since microsoft's goal is no local PC, we just get a terminal and  run a VM.

 

I had been running a 1U with 4TB of storage at a co-loc for years for less the cost of my Internet at home. That was where all my back up was at. I recently lost that co-loc when they were bought out and the prices went up.

 

My dad and myself both have comcast business Internet. It is only a few bucks more then residential, is faster and uncapped.

We just set up a VPN to each other and he has a box at my house that his WHS backs up to and I have a box at his house my WHS backs up to. we have a sync script that runs and repeats when done, if nothing is copied on the next pass, sleep for 4 hours. if files were copied, run again. the first time we ran the sync, we ran it locally so it didn't take a week.

 

I know it is a bit off topic of commercial clouds, but is it cheap, effective and secure. Many of us have friends and family we could do this with.  If i need more storage. i can get another drive and install it on he remote server. If i need  4TB of backups. i can drive to his house and get them instead of downloading them. I bet you could Rsync 2 unRAID boxes over a VPN in a similar fashion.

[aiden]

I know it is a bit off topic of commercial clouds, but is it cheap, effective and secure. Many of us have friends and family we could do this with.  If i need more storage. i can get another drive and install it on he remote server. If i need  4TB of backups. i can drive to his house and get them instead of downloading them. I bet you could Rsync 2 unRAID boxes over a VPN in a similar fashion.

 

Not to keep bringing up Crashplan, but this is a function of Crashplan that I find very useful.  I have a friend sending me backups, and his files are completely obfuscated using their encoding technique.  Yes, it does require their interface to restore the files, but it's very easy.

[Loch]

I am with aiden. A buddy and I use Crashplan to automatically back-up important stuff (pics, home movies, docs etc) to each other. Works great (when his Crashplan process doesn't die). You can allocate as much space as you want, plus I use it with the family backing up to me. I really like the weekly updates as well as the warnings when a system hasn't backed up. It tells me I need to email him and get him to fix his machine!

 

The only issue is you can't Crashplan backup a Crashplan backup. So with family backing up to me, I can't reiterate that to him. Unless someone knows a way around that.

[toby9999]

Folks

 

This thread was originally posted to introduce SpiderOak, but quickly morphed into a more generic discussion about Cloud Storage.  But in my original post, I made an offer stating that any money generated from people joining up for the free or paid version of SpiderOak (using my affiliate link - see below) would be donated to Tom at Lime Technology.  I'm happy to report that three people have joined up so far, for a total commission generated of $19.25.  While it's small, it's a good start which I hope will help Tom realise just what a wonderful community of supporters he has, and possibly prompt him to become a little more involved in the community (say with more regular progress updates).

 

If you're interested in signing up to try SpiderOak (free/per-month/per-year options), please use the promo link below, thanks.

 

https://spideroak.com/download/promo/unraidpromo

 

 

Cheers

 

Toby

 

[sunnyville]

I believe your donation idea is a great idea, even if the amount is low as the aim is not to make Tom rich (although I'm sure he'd like that ;-) ) but to entice him to become more actively involved with his community and make his already great product even better.