Question about selling used drives

[wsume99]

Looking for some advice from the forum. I recently sold two 1TB Seagate 7200.12 HDDs on e-bay. These drives were in my desktop and functioning right up until I sold them. Both drives passed a SMART test (one had about 60 reallocated sectors) and the SeaTools long test. I alos ran three preclear cycles on them and the passed them all with no issues. Now the buyer is saying they won't pass the same SeaTools long test that I performed. I assume they were damaged during shipment but I packaged them pretty well. The listing specified that no returns or exchanges were provided and the buyer did not purchase shipping insurance. So what should I do? If I refund their money then I'm getting screwed. They did not purchase insurance so why is it not their fault.

[JonathanM]

Sounds like you are getting shaken down. There probably is not going to be a happy ending.

Hopefully you still have the preclear reports that at least will have smart status recorded with the serial numbers. Email a copy to the buyer, and tell them "sorry, but they were shipped to you exactly as I represented in the auction".

[WeeboTech]

The concept of 'the buyer is responsible for insurance' is a mistake.

 

It's the sellers responsibility to provide them in working order. If the few dollars of insurance were not supplied to protect the seller, and the buyer, then that is a mistake the seller may have to live with.

 

Insurance is cheap. Especially considering what a seller may have to deal with.

 

If they do not pass the manufacturer diagnostics, the buyer has the right to file a complaint with paypal since the auction probably stated known to be in working condition.

 

If the box shows damage, it's shipping damage. The seller can file the insurance claim.

The buyer cannot. This puts the seller in the hot seat since the buyer says they do not work.

If the box shows distress from shipping, then it is truly a shipping issue.

however, the buyer would need to be honest with that.  UPS may even request the box and/or pictures to prove it's a shipping/handling issue or a poor packing issue.

 

If the buyer files a claim, Paypal will tell the buyer to ship them back.

It's up to the seller to file the insurance claim and reap the benefits of insuring the item.

 

Insurance is a sellers protection.

 

1. If the item gets lost and does not show 'received' by a valid tracking number.

 

 

2. If the item is not working as per auction and paypal sides with the buyer. They usually do. There's a reason for buyers protection.

 

Now here is where you may be protected if the buyer is pulling a fast one.

If you have details of the serial number and condition proving what was sold and the buyer does not ship back what you shipped out, you can file a police report and the buyer will not get their money back.

 

Here's the thing, even if the auction states, no exchanges or refunds, you can still be held liable for the item(s) if they are not received in working condition.

 

I've been through this a few times.  I've always won.

 

You can accept the return, at the buyers expense. Then refund their cost (minus the shipping I believe).

 

I might insist on tracking and insurance coming back to you.

However if the buyer does not provide it, and they never arrive you will win a case.

 

Point to consider.

 

1. It has to be working if the auction says it's in working condition.

 

2. You must have tracking and it has to say received or you will loose the case. 

    A shipping receipt does not count (either way).

 

3. If the buyer returns it with tracking and it shows received, the money gets returned.

 

4. If what was sent out, and what is returned differs, a seller will need to file a police report and -

provide that to paypal.  This could sway the case to the seller's side. 

 

Chances are not good on this though. A seller I knew sold a guitar pedal only to have the buyer say it did not work.  Paypal told him to send it back. it came back with the insides removed. Just the metal case.  He lost the case. He did not know about the police report.

 

As a seller you are NOT absolved of the responsibility of receipt until it says "received".

A seller who believes "insurance is the buyers choice and cost" will find they could be on the loosing side of a case.

Sellers who present "working items"  sold "as is" with "no returns" can still find they will loose a case if the item does not work as advertised.

 

I suppose you can insist on tracking & insurance to receive the hard drives.

Then receive them, if they do not work file an insurance claim.

However, the shipper is the one who gets the insurance funds. So it would be the responsibility of the shipper to refund you. 

However, without a bill of sale from the buyer back to the shipper, there is little chance it will go through.

 

I'm sorry, but in this case, not paying for insurance, or charging the customer for it, puts you in a precarious situation.

 

I believe you do have the right to refrain from refunding the shipping,  once you receive the drives back.  If you work it out with the customer, you'll be in control of the return. If paypal decides, they return the whole amount of the transaction/auction.

 

Return shipping is the buyer's expense and it must say received via some trackable method.

 

 

FWIW, UPS Ground provides an automatic $100 insurance.

 

If the same drives are returned in non working condition and you used UPS ground to ship them out to the buyer, you can get some money back.

 

If you have used UPS ground. Call them with the tracking and state the buyer is reporting them to be damaged.  State they were in working condition before the sale and provide all documentation proving it.  They will guide you in the process.

 

They may request pictures, inspection or pick up the merchandise.

Paypal may insist the buyer sends the merchandise back to the seller.

 

This is where it's "iffy".

If the buyer gives the merchandise to UPS (or another carrier), the buyer and seller are at the mercy of UPS (carrier).  (mostly the buyer).

 

Paypal is refund is on hold until the buyer returns it to the seller with a tracking method that shows 'received'.

Once tracking shows received to the seller, Paypal refunds the buyer and the seller is at the mercy of UPS or what ever shipping method.

 

I believe international shipping of merchandise by USPS priority also gets some  'automatic' insurance. But not much. It's based on weight.

 

Insurance is the sellers responsibility to protect their merchandise and the buyer.

If you do not want to eat that cost, then put it in as part of the shipping and handling.

Any thought that it's the buyers responsibility is a mistake.

[WeeboTech]

Sounds like you are getting shaken down. There probably is not going to be a happy ending.

Hopefully you still have the preclear reports that at least will have smart status recorded with the serial numbers. Email a copy to the buyer, and tell them "sorry, but they were shipped to you exactly as I represented in the auction".

 

This may or may not work if they file a paypal claim.

 

If the recorded hours and time are provable, they may side with the seller.

 

If there is a screen capture of the manufacture diagnostics showing serial and PASSED.

Paypal/eBay may consider it as damaged in shipping.  Insurance takes over at that point.

 

If it's not insured, I'm not confident on what they will do.

Chances are they will tell the buyer to return them and the seller will have to refund them.

 

I had a laptop shown to be in 'working condition'.

I had to bring it to an independent party for an assessment.

They gave me a receipt. I documented what was wrong. I showed the independent party. He agreed. I supplied it to paypal and won the case.

The seller had to fight with UPS to get his insurance.

Issue at that point was proving who the irresponsible party was.  Seller or UPS.

 

The box was not damaged enough to prove his case and I'm not sure what the final outcome was.

[WeeboTech]

One more point.

I purchased a hard drive of a specific model from a seller who said no returns/refunds.

 

The seller said 'in working condition'.

 

It failed when I used it. I reported it. The seller balked.

I provided the smart reports and an explanation that a windows quick format was not a confidence test the drive was usable and in working condition.

The SMART long test failed. I provided it and received my refund.

 

This is all going to depend on the education of the customer or the seller's choice to handle it appropriately.  The buyer does have the right to provide negative feedback if they feel it's not in working condition.

 

I might insist on a screen shot of the SEATOOLS diagnostics.

[wsume99]

I have the preclear reports showing the drives were healthy as well as screenshots which include s/n's showing that the drives passed the SMART and long generic test in SeaTools. The only thing I don't have is a picture of the packaging. The drives were shipped USPS Priority which include $50 insurance for free. I sold the drives for $100 with free shipping.

 

I've read the user guide for SeaTools and it says that if an internal drive encounters a bad sector during the long generic test it will fail. If you are testing an external drive it will allow you to repair the sectors. It sounds like a "Fix All Long" test will allow the drive to reallocate the sector(s). I'm going to ask the buyer to run the Fix All Long test to see if the drive can reallocate the bad sectors and then pass the test. I'm betting it passes a SMART test right now.

[WeeboTech]

I've read the user guide for SeaTools and it says that if an internal drive encounters a bad sector during the long generic test it will fail. If you are testing an external drive it will allow you to repair the sectors. It sounds like a "Fix All Long" test will allow the drive to reallocate the sector(s). I'm going to ask the buyer to run the Fix All Long test to see if the drive can reallocate the bad sectors and then pass the test. I'm betting it passes a SMART test right now.

 

This should resolve it, since it will force a reallocation.

In the future, purchase the insurance or add it as part of the handling fee.

[garycase]

I agree with WeeboTech's assessment r.e. responsibility.  While you may make insurance optional for the buyer, that is only to cover LOSS of the product in shipment.  If you're concerned about potential damage during shipping, YOU should buy insurance.

 

A buyer who receives a product that does not meet the stated condition will almost always win a PayPal claim.  Although a drive may have passed the manufacturer's diagnostics before you packed it;  if it does NOT pass those same diagnostics when received the buyer has a legitimate complaint r.e. the condition not being as advertised.    As WeeboTech noted, unless the box has clear evidence of shipping damage, the buyer is going to win this argument almost every time.

 

Note, by the way, that the manufacturer's diagnostic in MUCH better than a pre-clear.  While pre-clearing is a good way for UnRAIDer's to gain confidence in a drive, it is NOT an industry-recognized diagnostic.    A SMART report; and a copy of the results of the manufacturer's diagnostics are good things to do on every drive you plan to sell ... and send a copy of these along with the drive.    That does not, however, protect you from the case where the drive has degraded enroute.

 

Your best bet in terms of maintaining a good rep on e-bay and resolving this amicably is to do as you suggested you were planning => ask the buyer to run the repair options in Seagate's SeaTools; and see if that repairs the drive to where it will then pass the extended test.  If not, you should offer to refund the price of the drive or (if you have one) send him a free replacement => although you may want to ask him to send you a copy of the SeaTools results just to confirm they are what he's claiming.

 

I really doubt you're being "shaken down" => drives can (and do) change after the vibration involved in transporting them.  I suspect that's what's happened here.  Even if you had purchased shipping insurance, it's unlikely the shipper's insurance would pay for this unless there was clear evidence of the package being damaged.  Your assessment of what happened is probably right on the money:

... I assume they were damaged during shipment ...

 

 

 

[neilt0]

I haven't read all the replies above (I will do later), but here is my personal experience selling a lot of drives.

 

I recently sold 37 hard drives on FleaBay. All were sold with mfr test reports (all passes) and SMART reports. I spent a lot of time cleaning and testing each drive before selling.

Some of the drives were not packed as well as they should have been because the Post Office (UK) changed the sizings of "small parcels", so I risked sending them out with less bubble packing than I should -- there should be at least 2" (preferably more) of packing around all dimensions of the drive.

 

Of course, as soon as I had finished selling, they changed the sizes back again!   

 

I only had 3 returns.

 

One, the guy was being a huge dick and I refunded it without him even returning it as it was sold at such a low price, me refunding all the shipping back was not worth it and I wanted him to go away.

 

The second one, the guy said he tested it in 2 machines and it wouldn't spin up. I asked him to return it and he didn't. So, either he wrote it off, or it wasn't dead and he was an idiot. Either way, no refund.

 

The third drive was a refurb I received from Seagate -- it was still in the original packing and I hadn't opened it. The guy said it would not work in his machine, but could not provide a SeaTools report or a SMART report.

I asked him to return it, but said that if I tested it myselft and provided reports of the drive working, I would refund his purchase price as a goodwill gesture, assuming his equipment (which was a DVR, not a PC) was not compatible, but I would not refund the shipping either way.

I tested it and there were no errors, so I refunded the purchase price (and got an eBay fee credit), but did not refund the shipping, so I was not out of pocket. PM me if you want to hear a follow-up to that incident -- I'm not posting it here.

 

In summary, I was only out of pocket in 1 out of 37 sales.

 

Returns are a pain. I think in all 3 cases, the users were non-technical and it's a nightmare asking them to test stuff.

However, you can make off like a bandit selling old hard drives on eBay. I made a crapload because I was selling old, small drives that were still working, and people wanted them for specific purposes.

 

If you have newer drives, at larger capacity, I'm not sure I'd sell them. I've kept 1x 1.5TB drive and a few 2TB drives. All the drives I sold were smaller drives. I did sell a few 1TB drives.

 

Here are my previous posts about selling drives:

 

1. http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=27018.msg239157#msg239157

 

2. http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=29707.msg266851#msg266851

 

3. http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=30221.msg271486#msg271486

 

4. http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=29370.msg265355#msg265355

 

ETA: With regard to testing, I only ran a SMART test (5 seconds) and a short mfr test (5 minutes). That's enough, unless the drive actually has pending sectors. In that case, I ran a preclear or mfr "Write Zeroes" as that would convert the pending to allocated and pass SMART and the mfr test. I think I only had to do that once.

I did take screenshots of the SMART pass and mfr test pass and included those in the auction.

[neilt0]

Having read all the posts. Here's what I'd do.

 

1. Ask him to send you screenshots of the drive(s) failing the test. If they can't be provided, there is no case.

If you can "fix" the drives by doing a "write zeroes" or write test, that might be acceptable to the buyer. I always try to fix things remotely if I can. I had one buyer report a noisy drive and I asked him to test the drive outside the case and he shut up then -- clearly the drive was vibrating because it wasn't secured properly.

 

2. If he proves they are faulty, you have to take the drives back. "No returns" means nothing if the goods don't work.

As for return shipping, I know eBay UK expects you (the seller) to pay for the shipping. Dunno about other areas. I'd come to an agreement (via messaging) that you will pay return shipping if they are faulty -- assuming eBay (U.S.?) expects the seller to pay shipping.

 

3. Take them back and test them. Then go from there.

[wsume99]

Here's an update - I sent the guy a link to the SeaTools User Guide and asked him to perform the "Fix All - Long" test which is basically writing zeros to the entire drive. He replied back (his username would indicate that he runs some sort of PC shop) and rattled off a bunch of BS about how he is Seagate, HP, & IBM certified and has been testing hard drives for 20+ years. Says that his techs would have tried all options to fix the drive including checking to see if the drive is still under warranty before sending me the message about the drives not working. Anyhow he agreed to have his guys take a look at it again today.

 

[Rant]

It has been my experience that people who throw out all their qualifications and certifications as proof that they are smart usually end up being not very smart. I have several pieces of very expensive paper that say I'm really smart too but that doesn't mean a lot in my book. I'll judge a person's intelligence based on what they say/do.

[/Rant]

 

Anyhow, back on topic. My plan is ...

 

[*]Try to have the buyer fix the drive as stated above

[*]If it cannot be fixed then I'll request a SMART health report to verify. Interesting question is what if the drive passes the SMART health report but fails the SeaTools long test? Assuming that the issue here is bad sectors then either the bad sectors can be reallocated and eventually the drive will pass the long test OR the drive will just keep throwing bad sectors until it eventually fails the SMART check.

[*]I agree that eventhough the listing specified "No Returns" that I need to accept a return for a defective product. If the product was working then I'd say no.

[*]I will require the buyer to ship back to me in the original packaging with insurance and tracking. I will not pay for return shipping. If I buy something from Newegg and it is defective I have to pay to ship it back. The buyer may be out return shiping but I've lost two HDDs plus the cost to ship them to him originally. So I think it's fair for him to cover the cost of return shipping.

[*]Once I receive the drives back I'll refund him the original purchase price.

[*]Then I'll test the drives myself and decide what to do with them. If they are bad I'll pursue an insurnace claim with USPS - that should be a lot of fun. I guess that's what I get for using ebay to sell HDDs.

[garycase]

... I will not pay for return shipping. If I buy something from Newegg and it is defective I have to pay to ship it back.

 

Actually that's not true ... Newegg is very good at providing return shipping labels for defective products.

 

 

... If they are bad I'll pursue an insurance claim with USPS - that should be a lot of fun.

 

A waste of time and energy.  Unless there was clear evidence of damage to the box; or it was lost; they are not going to pay for electronic malfunction.  Save yourself some frustration and don't bother.

 

 

 

[wsume99]

... I will not pay for return shipping. If I buy something from Newegg and it is defective I have to pay to ship it back.

 

Actually that's not true ... Newegg is very good at providing return shipping labels for defective products.

I've had to RMA several DOA HDDs to Newegg and they did not pay for return shipping. Never had to RMA anything to Newegg other than HDDs.

 

... If they are bad I'll pursue an insurance claim with USPS - that should be a lot of fun.

 

A waste of time and energy.  Unless there was clear evidence of damage to the box; or it was lost; they are not going to pay for electronic malfunction.  Save yourself some frustration and don't bother.

Well at this point it's a matter of principle to me. If you are going to charge me a premium price for Priority Mail and say it inlcudes $50 of insurance then I'm definitely going to submit a claim espically since the drives went from good to bad and the only thing that occurred was shipping. If they don't pay my claim at least I'll have the satisfaction of being a major PITA to them (actually some poor sap working for them).

[garycase]

Well at this point it's a matter of principle to me. If you are going to charge me a premium price for Priority Mail and say it inlcudes $50 of insurance then I'm definitely going to submit a claim espically since the drives went from good to bad and the only thing that occurred was shipping.

 

I added the bold emphasis => since you apparently didn't insure them when you shipped them ... based on your earlier comment ...

 

the buyer did not purchase shipping insurance.

 

... and the buyer says they're bad => so they can't "go from good to bad" on a return shipment.

 

 

Your experience with Newegg is interesting.  Mine has been different on the few occasions I've needed to return defective items.    I suppose it may be due to different customer profiles .. I am a VERY good customer of theirs (probably 300 orders or so over the past few years).

 

[WeeboTech]

Re: newegg. When my motherboard was defective a few months ago. I had to pay $9.00 for their label. I was not reimbursed for shipping.

 

I can't tell you exactly how many orders I've placed, but I can say it's thousands of dollars a year.

It's my profession and passion. I had computers everywhere before the flood.

Now I have laptops everywhere doing different things.

 

Perhaps it's if you call in or use the online system. The motherboard was the only item I had to return.

 

 

As far as insurance for USPS. if they say it's automatic and the box shows distress in shipping they will cover it. You may have to prove the issue and surrender the box including contents.

 

I've shipped tons of lava lamps with lots of casualties. I've never been declined the insurance.

 

You will need to prove the damage was shipping. SMART before, SMART after.

Show the packaging as distressed. Make sure you get the original box back.

Show all receipts, Proof of sale price, proof of payment, Proof of reimbursement, proof of shipping cost.

 

You will be required to fill out forms.

Amounts $50 and under are handled at the post office.

Amounts over $50 requires mailing everything to a central insurance claim office.

[wsume99]

The buyer did not purchase insurance however I shipped them USPS Priprity Mail which includes $50 of insurance. So the shipment was insured for $50 but the buyer paid $100 for the two drives.

 

Right now the buyer claims they are bad but that is just his word. I won't consider the drives bad until I can test them myself or he can provide me sufficient proof, which I plan to request, that they are bad.

 

I also told him that if he returns the item then he needs to do so in the original packaging.

 

I also order thousands of dollars of merchandise from Newegg each year and have been doing so for at least the last 5 years. Newegg was very good at printing a return shipping label but I was required to pay for it. I now have Amazon Prime and I've shifted a lot of my purchases to them because of free 2-day shipping and hassle free returns. I only buy from Newegg now when they are a lower cost.

[garycase]

Amazon has indeed become a very good source for a lot of this technology.

 

Have you seen the octocopter Jeff Bezos wants to start using for deliveries within 10 miles of a fulfillment center?    Really cool -- although it'll be a few years before it's a reality.  But 20 minutes from the "click" of placing your order until delivery would certainly be slick !! 

[BobPhoenix]

I usually have to pay to get newegg shipping label.  If I chat with a rep and complain loudly about something I can talk them into free.  So you might try that the next time.  If you stick to email like I usually do it will get you no where.

[StevenD]

NewEgg does initially tell you that you will have to pay for return shipping.  If you ask, or pressure them, they will waive it.  I would imagine most people dont question it, so NewEgg makes a fortune.