Xen/unRAID-6 Discussion


limetech

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Lol

 

what about :

 

If you have a machine that supports x64 then you can run vm's

if you have 4gb or more ram then you can run a vm (guess 3 would even do :P)

you can run windows as vm  and install all programs :P the way you are used too, just don't expect anything fast or a good screen resolution without special hardware

preferably you setup a vm with a liux OS where you need to remember 2 commands depending what flavor

 

ubuntu/debian you remember apt-get install and apt-get upgrade

red hat/centos/fedora you remember yum install and yum upgrade

 

all dependencies of whatever program you want to install are included with those

and upgrading an application will also upgrade the dependencies

 

you can run a desktop version of the linux OS if you want to point and click :P

 

you can upgrade most of the time the complete OS with all programs with one command

 

 

I presume most know what virtualisation is and what it can do.

 

The question is how easy is it to invoke, configure and setup for those of us less technically minded.  What you have described is a hell of a lot more work and complicated than today's plugin system.

 

Here's a sticky tongue as you seem to like those. :P

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Guess it will all come down to are you able to install an OS on a computer ?

if you can do that then you can install a vm like a pro  ::)

but don't even fret there are images out there where you just need to import the image

 

all depends what we will settle for as gui ...

 

I for one will be happy to not have to depend on unraid 's slackware packages as to what app we can install and which not

the new v6 is easy as it uses the last slack edition

but v5 was not always that evident to get an app running especially if you want the latest version of an app

ask the transmission plugin developers how funny it was

 

For the end user it was easy... install plg and complain if it doesn't work.... even if it didn't work because of problem between chair and computer...

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One liner for the masses: Plug-n-Play modules to extend your servers capabilities.

 

Everybody is familiar with "Plug-n-Play" with the advent of USB. They don't need to know that they're creating an entire new computer inside their computer, ala TRON.

 

Edit: I would assume that UNRAID Xen would only boot on capable hardware.

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I think we can safely assume most (and by most I expect to be a very very high percentage) of unRAID user could run at least one VM without any real impact.

 

My honest opinion is that 2 Xen tings confuse new users:

 

1. passthough. people seem to to stuck thinking that you MUST have it and the reality is very few people will and if they do they will have very specific high end requirement i.e. HTPC on top of unRAID.

2. The perception that each addon will come with a new vm to try and work with. My honest opinion is that naturally we will settle on one vm OS and though some process most users will be able to get most things by magically sourcing this one vm.

 

but we are straying back to plugins again.

 

The matter at hand is how to make Xen work and work in a way that users can understand.

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Firstly I'm far from an expert user but I have been around since the beginning.

 

I think I'm a typical user. I have a few plugins running, mainly PMS but that is about as much as I can manage without step by step idiots guides.

 

I have upgraded hardware a few times over the the years and liked the idea of ESXi, even have the right hardware to do it now but have never had the nerve (and time) to start with risk of messing up the family's viewing.

 

I love the idea of the route v6 is going with Xen. I see it like running Virtual Box on a Windows machine (which I can manage)  but without the overhead. I see the VHD's being created by others with the packages I need to use. Each VHD could be thought of as a plugin or a group of plugins.

 

All we really need is a management page on the GUI which points to the folder that holds the VHD's and start, autostart, stop, backup, options for them. 

 

Wouldn't be any different to the way most plugins are now, would it?

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How noticeable will the performance difference be when running a vm from the cache drive vs protected array?

 

That is almost a trick question there are so many variables. However given enough memory and the efficient nature of linux the answer will like be very little if any at all after boot.

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How noticeable will the performance difference be when running a vm from the cache drive vs protected array?

 

That is almost a trick question there are so many variables. However given enough memory and the efficient nature of linux the answer will like be very little if any at all after boot.

 

 

It depends on how many writes the VM performs.

If you can write at up to 35-40MB/s on the protected array vs 60-90MB/s, the amount and frequency of writes could determine the feel/performance of the VM. (and the rest of the array).

 

 

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My most important VM will be a pfSense firewall.  Will this require a passthrough on v6?  Any other expected challenges with v6 and this kind of a VM?  I also can see a Crashplan VM to get rid of the plug-in there, but guessing that this will work well.

 

(Using X9SCM F O with Xeon1220, so I have 2 network ports.  pfSense is currently running with a Hotlava/Intel Vesuvius 6C11810A3 Six Port Gigabit Ethernet PCI card in a second computer that I can move if need be to the X9SCM.)

 

 

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I'd like to learn more about this, but Google fails me. Would you be so kind as to point me to a white paper or two that describes the technical rationale for not passing through disks to a VM? Or if you are inclined, share one or two of those technical reasons?

 

I will post several tomorrow.

 

Cool. Thanks!

 

You are adding ANOTHER layer on top of the things your data has to go through before it writes the data to your drives. Even when passing through your SATA / SAS / RAID Controller... Your VM DOES NOT have direct access / control over it. It is talking to it through the VM to the Host, Host to the Kernel and the Kernel to Block Device.

 

I found this summary: http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Xen_PCI_Passthrough#Overview_of_passthrough

 

I'm curious about the role of pciback on a system with VT-d/IOMMU, since the hardware is providing the protection. And I guess the real issue is whether pciback causes additional risk or serious performance loss.

 

3. They are talking about Virtual Hard Drives (what your VMs will be running on in your unRAID / Cache drive) not drives that are passed through via PCI Passthrough.

 

Ah, so I should be searching for "pci passthrough". Thanks for the clarification.

 

Considering you didn't know what a VHD is and the Hyper-V can't do PCI Passthrough... Do I really need to post the whitepapers that you probably won't understand and will only confuse you and others?

 

You're an authority. I get that. But I, and I suspect others, want to learn the details instead of just taking your word for it. I have a PhD in computer science, so I think I'm able to learn. If you can set aside the condescension and arrogance and teach us, it would actually help the community more than "trust me because I'm smart and you're dumb". And instead of repeating yourself all the time, you can just link to your response. :)

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Well of course one very good reason to avoid needing pci-passthrough for the likes of many UnRaid users is the ability to avoid needing a motherboard and bios that supports IOMMU.  At best that means buying a new MB (and making sure it has the right BIOS version, sometimes an old one!!!).  At worst it means buying an EXPENSIVE new MB.  The choices out there are actually very slim and documentation is sketchy at best.  The OEMs are really bad about documenting that feature on consumer level boards.

 

So making Xen-UnRaid dom0 and running the SATA parts bare metal once again opens us to using all manner of inexpensive consumer level MBs without worring about a poorly documented and occasionally poorly implemented feature. 

 

Then the only people that need to worry about it are those looking for video-card passthrough for things like XBMC.  Sure a good number of people will still want that, but it is yet a smaller subset of the users who will want to virtualize at all which of course is yet a subset of all possible unraid users.  Though the expectation is that once we leave beta, installing a VM will be a "plug-in-like" experience such that the less technically inclined users who want clink-installabilty will use VMs too.

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There's a lot of fear about virtualization in here.  While not everyone is an IT professional or power user, a lot of us are and we aren't about to leave everyone in the dust.  I've helped tons of users with esx setup/config and hardware purchasing advise via PM and I don't mind doing it one bit.

 

If your unraid server is currently running apps x,y and z via plugins , you have enough horsepower to run those apps in a VM!  The overhead of the hypervisor and a stripped down linux distro will be pretty much negligible.  All we need from Tom is an official VM import tool in the webGUI and the community will come to the rescue with pre-made VMs that are stripped down and optimized to run all the apps we know and love. 

 

Want to run an app that's not pre-loaded in one of these VMs? - No problem, there's at least 50 people on these boards that can create a guide to walk you through it.

 

Want to make your own VMs? - Sure, there's already guides popping up and we'll make you a VM pro in no time.

 

Dont wan't to use VM? - I hope the plugin authors upgrade their plugins to x64 for you, but as the bus driver as mention they'd be pulling their hair out for nothing.

 

Still not convinced? - Go buy a Synology NAS and you'll see why we're pushing the virtualization agenda

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Well of course one very good reason to avoid needing pci-passthrough for the likes of many UnRaid users is the ability to avoid needing a motherboard and bios that supports IOMMU.  At best that means buying a new MB (and making sure it has the right BIOS version, sometimes an old one!!!).  At worst it means buying an EXPENSIVE new MB.  The choices out there are actually very slim and documentation is sketchy at best.  The OEMs are really bad about documenting that feature on consumer level boards.

 

So making Xen-UnRaid dom0 and running the SATA parts bare metal once again opens us to using all manner of inexpensive consumer level MBs without worring about a poorly documented and occasionally poorly implemented feature. 

 

Then the only people that need to worry about it are those looking for video-card passthrough for things like XBMC.  Sure a good number of people will still want that, but it is yet a smaller subset of the users who will want to virtualize at all which of course is yet a subset of all possible unraid users.  Though the expectation is that once we leave beta, installing a VM will be a "plug-in-like" experience such that the less technically inclined users who want clink-installabilty will use VMs too.

This.

 

I just had to get a new motherboard and the BIOS has virtualization settings but I don't think I will know without me trying it or someone else with the same board trying it. I'm not sure I care because I have no immediate plans to use passthrough. I will be serving Plex to my network, unRAID will be using the disks bare-metal, and VMs can get at the unRAID data without passthrough.

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Peter virtualizing OpenElec should be possible although I'm not clear on some of the paravirtualizing drivers Grumpy mentioned before so it might not be as clear cut as on ESXi.

 

On your OpenElec VM in ESXi, goto system, system info and tell me what Video Card Driver is showing. Is it VMWare?

 

If it isn't showing AMD or nVidia (if you a Quattro Series)... You are not using Hardware Video Acceleration. Instead your CPU in the VM is doing all the processing / decoding of your video files.

 

I have had 0 success passing through a video card to an OpenELEC VM in ESXi.  See my thread here:  http://openelec.tv/forum/64-installation/69158-openelec-vm-with-vga-pci-passthrough

 

The fact that there has been 0 replies tells me that there is no interest in virtualization in the OpenELEC world.  Sure, OpenELEC VMDKs exists but I have yet to see anyone pass through a vid card.  Honestly, what is even the point of running an HTPC in a VM without VGA passthrough?

 

John

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Peter virtualizing OpenElec should be possible although I'm not clear on some of the paravirtualizing drivers Grumpy mentioned before so it might not be as clear cut as on ESXi.

 

On your OpenElec VM in ESXi, goto system, system info and tell me what Video Card Driver is showing. Is it VMWare?

 

If it isn't showing AMD or nVidia (if you a Quattro Series)... You are not using Hardware Video Acceleration. Instead your CPU in the VM is doing all the processing / decoding of your video files.

 

I have had 0 success passing through a video card to an OpenELEC VM in ESXi.  See my thread here:  http://openelec.tv/forum/64-installation/69158-openelec-vm-with-vga-pci-passthrough

 

The fact that there has been 0 replies tells me that there is no interest in virtualization in the OpenELEC world.  Sure, OpenELEC VMDKs exists but I have yet to see anyone pass through a vid card.  Honestly, what is even the point of running an HTPC in a VM without VGA passthrough?

 

John

 

I too had issues with openELEC but more success with xbmcbuntu

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A simple question to the virtualization gurus:

I have a separate server running a card-sharing software on it which is connected to a bunch of readers via USB to serve my local TV set-top-boxes. My Unraid motherboard is virtualization capable (Supermicro X9SCA-O) so as the CPU (Xeon E3-1220v2 - still not installed in Unraid). Do I need to pass-through only the USB hub (attached to one of the internal USB ports of the MB) so that I can use the card-readers on virtualized Ubuntu and consequently get rid of the first server?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

 

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My most important VM will be a pfSense firewall.  Will this require a passthrough on v6? 

 

I am building similar setup and I don't think you need pass through for that.

as far as I can tell you need to create a dedicated bridge for any interface you want to access from pfsence and use that as  NICs for your VM

 

I am still in research mode on this one though so let you know when I have a working setup.

 

 

 

 

I am also curious about this!

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I found this summary: http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Xen_PCI_Passthrough#Overview_of_passthrough

 

I'm curious about the role of pciback on a system with VT-d/IOMMU, since the hardware is providing the protection. And I guess the real issue is whether pciback causes additional risk or serious performance loss.

 

In "layman terms"... You just explained ONE very important reason why it is not not a good practice and why you will not find companies or whitepapers supporting / encouraging / recommending PCI Passthrough for the Drives / RAID. You add a bunch of additional layers which opens your data / drives to a whole host of things that could harm it. Not to mention the additional management / support / costs associated with it.

 

If you want to run unRAID in a VM... by all means go do it.

 

Let me give you a preview of what you get to look forward too...

 

1. Several hours / days combing through websites, blogs, forums trying to determine what motherboard, CPU, SATA Controllers, USB Controllers, Video Cards, etc. that are capable of doing VT-D / AMD-V and IOMMU.

 

2. Several hours / days installing various versions of ESXi in hopes that one of them works for both PCI Passthrough / USB Passthrough and no guarantee that it will work.

 

3. Several hours / days getting the correct BIOs on your motherboard / RAID Controller and configuring the settings correctly.

 

4. Newer versions of ESXi can / probably will break your PCI / USB Passthrough.

 

5. Manage ESXi and your unRAID VM with not 1 or 2 Management Tools... but 3 or 4.

 

6. If you are using ESXi and you want / need the capabilities / features of Virtual Machine 10, be prepared to pay $700 for the software.

 

7. If you want to run different apps than unRAID plugins offers / work (the reason you are going through the expense and hell of running unRAID in a VM to begin with)... You still have to create / install / use VMs ANYWAY.

 

8. Adding a bunch of additional layers which opens your data / drives to a whole host of things that could harm it.

 

Now multiply the 8 headaches above across 1,000+ Servers, 1,000+ VMs, across an Enterprise in 200 locations.

 

Are you starting to see the Logistical / Management / Service / Support nightmare? That is without adding the additional layers your data / drives have to go through which make it more vulnerable. Those reasons above and many more are why you will not find Whitepapers or Businesses that support / encourage / promote PCI Passthrough for their valuable / mission critical data.

 

It is also why in 3+ years VMWare has yet to get PCI Passthrough working on a variety of hardware configurations across 3 versions. Do you know why that is? I will tell you... Their paying customers do not care / want / use it.

 

If those reasons I listed above do not explain it in a way that you understand / comprehend as to why it's not considered a good practice...

 

Knock your socks off and go become an expert on VT-D / AMD-V, IOMMU, DMA, NUMA, QEMU, Xen, ESXi, KVM, Machine Emulation, Kernel Modules, File System Drivers, Block Device Drivers, Paravirtualized Drivers, HVM, PVHVM, HVM, Virtio, VFIO, etc.

 

If you can set aside the condescension and arrogance and teach us, it would actually help the community more than "trust me because I'm smart and you're dumb"

 

I earn a great living by doing just that. I present a Business Case in "Layman Terms" why they do not want to do X, Y and Z but should do A, B and C instead. They know I am expert in my field, valuable resource and know how to best use technology to execute their business objectives.

 

I also find myself on the other side of table and I gladly pay mechanics, doctors, dentists, A/C repairmen, Realtors, Accountants, etc. a lot of money for their expertise where I am "dumb".

 

And instead of repeating yourself all the time, you can just link to your response. :)

 

If you do not like my explanations, opinions or want additional information... I gave you some clues earlier. Start there and when are finished come back I can provide more.

 

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Geeks and tinkerers aside I think most people would just like to click a button or upload a file which installs package X and guides them through setting it up.

 

Only way that will happen is when Tom moves away from slack

if he makes unraid on ubuntu for example which has a package manager then all your problems will go away

 

If I understand all this properly, unRAID can run on anything it wants, as it will be the host, and all other apps (ex-plugins) can/should be run in a VM.  Therefore, the distro upon which unRAID runs has nothing to do with installing apps, or the ease of doing so, as that will be determined by the distro of the VM in which they are running.  If one wants to install something directly into/on unRAID, a different distro would make that easier, but as has been said very often, one doesn't want to do that.  unRAID should run as minimally as possible (bare metal) to keep it as reliable as possible.

 

Furthermore, from my reading on this, it seems possible/probable that 'installing' the VM can/will likely be done from a GUI and clicking on a button. The specific mechanism of this seems to not be determined yet, but it sounds eminently possible.

 

So, that sounds to me like a system which is actually easier than the plugin system, which I've experienced as far more complicated than people are making it out to seem.  From downloading the html vs xml file, to putting it in the wrong place, to not knowing how to install it, to the changing dependencies, to the changing location of config files, to use the cache drive or not, to competing versions of dependencies.  I'd say the plugin system has been rather successful given the ad-hoc and constantly changing nature of the "system" upon which it is built.  It's not a 'simple' system, it's just what we all seem to have figured out, in spite of it's limitations.

 

It seems to me that the VM solution is bound to be at least as 'easy' as the current plugin system, and probably even easier to install, and will be infinitely easier to maintain updated/current.

 

I'm looking forward to this progressing further, and jumping into testing myself soon (once my HTPC hardware is here with me).  Sadly, I do need to purchase a new processor to get the hardware pass-thru.  I will need to install a windows VM to install JRiver Media Center, and will need to allow it access to a video card (or the IGP, if possible).  I will also need to pass-thru the audio outputs to this VM to allow for multiple zone setup for audio and video :).

 

Good things are a comin ;)

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Hmmm.... Anyone got a slackware 14.1 development vm so we can compile and develop unRAID plugins?  ;D

 

I've got a Slackware 14.1 VM Appliance for you. Let me send it over.

 

That way you can spend the next few weeks and months writing a 2,000+ line plugin that probably will not 100% of the time, crash my other plugins or unRAID itself.

 

On top of that, I will bitch / moan / complain about the work you did, how long it's taking, blame you for crashing my other plugins, crashing unRAID itself and really go off on you when you do not meet my demands and support / maintain it through 15+ beta / release candidates for unRAID 6.0. You should also know, you are going to suffer through all of that and not get a dime or even get a thank you.

 

Installing a VM Appliance or installing Ubuntu in a VM and either clicking Mediawiki in the GUI Package manager or typing "apt-get install mediawiki" is far to complicated and less reliable than plugins. I know this because 3 or 4 people here who have no clue how plugins work (don't work is more like it) or who do not know what Virtualzation is or ever set one up... said so.

 

WeeboTech, since I cannot write a plugin and you can... You are now my little bitch! I'm going to rough you up, smack you around and I'm not even going to leave you money on the nightstand when I leave. Remember, I only beat you because you deserve it and because I love you.... got that?

 

Is it any wonder why the old plug developers faded into the night and why we haven't seen new plugins for apps developed (patched up existing plugins do not count) in forever?

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