unRAID Project Update, Core Features, Virtualization, and Thanks You's

[jonp]

Are there really so many looking to play games on virtual machines (I'd have thought they were 'bare metal' types)?

 

Any game that can be played on a "bare metal" machine.  I have played Watch Dogs, Wolfenstein (the new one), Far Cry 3, and many others with near bare-metal performance on our test builds.  That said, SteamOS itself only supports a handful of games directly so far as many are written for Direct X (therefore Windows).  The best game on SteamOS right now is probably Metro Last Light.

 

Hmm, well needless to say I have little time for apple's attempt to sell needless hardware or propagate their insular ecosystem. Not sure I agree either with your "don't mention the OSX, I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it" - if it's possible to get it running, people will - and they'll describe how here. Lot's of times.

 

Still, it's a rod for your own back that you're making...

 

Its all about not wanted to get sued.  Check that link out some more.  There's a reason why lots of big name websites won't allow folks to post that kind of stuff on forums.  Same reason why if you post anything about how to pirate software or anything like that, those posts get taken down as well.

 

In short, I agree with you 100% on the apple stuff, but it is what it is.

 

That's right, work on your weekend ..... 

 

Always do!

[sane]

Its all about not wanted to get sued.  Check that link out some more.  There's a reason why lots of big name websites won't allow folks to post that kind of stuff on forums.  Same reason why if you post anything about how to pirate software or anything like that, those posts get taken down as well.

 

In short, I agree with you 100% on the apple stuff, but it is what it is.

Yeah I understand the position you are in - don't want any gutter dwelling lawyers slithering up. Just sticks in my craw that apple took BSD, then proceeded to form a closed ecosystem with it to extort money with no quid pro quo. Roll on the day that EULA are recognised as illegal contract renegotiations and not holy writ.

[JustinChase]

Normal Way...

 

1. "apt-get install xbmc" (if it isn't in the Linux Distro already).

 

Video Card Drivers are enable (by default) / used in most every Linux Device / Distro I can possible think of.

 

unRAID Way - Number 1

 

1. Wait for Lime Technologies to allow you use to computer / motherboard / iGPU (they disable it in Linux).

 

2. Go spend the next few months [to] determine if you have the correct hardware for it iGPU passthrough or not.

 

3. If you do not have the correct gear for number 2 above, go spend a small fortune on a new CPU, Motherboard, Video Card, etc.

 

4. Wait for Xen / KVM to be done / work correctly in unRAID 6 (which is still in beta).

 

I am not an expert, or even particularly knowledgeable in any of this stuff, so I may be confused, but are you saying that unRAID just disables video drivers in Slackware, and that all they have to do it un-disable them to allow someone to run a VM with video enabled, without a PCI video card?

 

I find it hard to believe that jonp can't/won't do something so simple, especially since he's told us you've communicated with him via email to help him.  If it were that simple, I'd like to think it'd be done by now.

 

Also, #2 seems to indicate that the 'correct' hardware is required, which would indicate that "the normal way" won't 'just work' without the 'correct' hardware either, or am I missing some nuance in this?

 

I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM.

 

Are you suggesting he could?  If so, how?

[jonp]

I am not an expert, or even particularly knowledgeable in any of this stuff, so I may be confused, but are you saying that unRAID just disables video drivers in Slackware, and that all they have to do it un-disable them to allow someone to run a VM with video enabled, without a PCI video card?

 

And this is the other reason Grumpy's posts at time's aren't helpful.  Sometimes they flat out misrepresent the truth.  We do not disable anyone's hardware from working with unRAID for the purpose of GPU pass through.  This is just plain not true.

 

I find it hard to believe that jonp can't/won't do something so simple, especially since he's told us you've communicated with him via email to help him.  If it were that simple, I'd like to think it'd be done by now.

 

You hit the nail on the head Justin.  If it was, we would.  It's not that simple and many of the things Grumpy suggested for us to try did NOT work out.  We are talking to the guys working on this at the closest level.  Alex Williamson is THE MAN on this stuff (VFIO in particular) and his word trumps what any one else on a forum here has to say about it.

 

Also, #2 seems to indicate that the 'correct' hardware is required, which would indicate that "the normal way" won't 'just work' without the 'correct' hardware either, or am I missing some nuance in this?

 

Having the correct hardware to make this work right is definitely key.  This is true no matter how you look at it. We're hoping to make it easier to discern what your existing hardware can support and what folks have got working.  Right now, you have to know where to look ;-).

[BRiT]

 

We are talking to the guys working on this at the closest level.  Alex Williamson is THE MAN on this stuff (VFIO in particular) and his word trumps what any one else on a forum here has to say about it.

 

Since he is the man as you admit and he works on the stuff for Red Hat, wouldn't it be wise to take a serious look at using a Red Hat based OS for exactly this purpose? Perhaps for unraid 7.0 series?

[jonp]

 

We are talking to the guys working on this at the closest level.  Alex Williamson is THE MAN on this stuff (VFIO in particular) and his word trumps what any one else on a forum here has to say about it.

 

Since he is the man as you admit and he works on the stuff for Red Hat, wouldn't it be wise to take a serious look at using a Red Hat based OS for exactly this purpose? Perhaps for unraid 7.0 series?

 

Most definitely!  We are open to the idea of another distro (never said we weren't).  Bottom line is that would be a bigger change to make than we can at this point for unRAID 6.  I am not promising anything for unRAID 7, but if there was a time to reassess the underlying operating system, unRAID 7 would be a good time to do that I think.  No promises being made here, but want folks to know that we aren't opposed to changing how we do things.  All to be reviewed in due time.

[dlandon]

I should have remembered, "if you give a mouse a cookie..."

 

Grumpy, we just don't have time to debate our development decisions with you or anyone for that matter.  I also don't appreciate having words put in my mouth.  Do you feel the average unRAID customer wants to manage their array using tools and utilities built for enterprise organizations?  I'm not saying that Red Hat's tools aren't good or usable, but not for an everyday user.  I've been in the enterprise virtualization/infrastructure industry for 10 years myself before joining Lime Tech, so no, I am not new to this space at all.  Eric, our other developer, has been coding for over 15 years on a variety of platforms.  Bottom line, what we're working on is directly in our wheelhouse.

 

My bigger issue at this point is the approach you take in these forums and the way you address people (not just Lime Tech, but anyone that disagrees with your viewpoint) is insulting, demeaning, condescending, egotistical, and unprofessional.  In addition, anyone that has as much time as you to post in these forums the same points over and over clearly doesn't have a business to run or a product to build, right?  I mean, seriously, just look at how many pages of content you've filled our forums with in just the last few days / weeks!

 

I can't find a nicer way to say this:  If you don't like where we are headed, leave.  We are moving forward to make unRAID better and better.  We are not just adding capabilities with virtualization either.  Building out the capabilities of a core NAS product is exactly what we're doing.  No matter how many times you and others remind us again and again that you've been asking for this for years doesn't actually help anyone.  If you don't like the order in which we're focusing on things or think that we should do X instead of Y, you are more than welcome to make your opinion known (that's what forums are for), but acting like a troll will get you treated like one.

 

All your rants in the complaint dept thread got a response, but all it did was slow down what we were working on for the next release.  We are upping our communication efforts and trying to do more, but its never good enough for people like you.

 

We do NOT follow the grumpybutfun playbook for supporting this initiative.  And instead of coming on here every day and apologizing for any sins of the past, we're too busy focused on making a better future.  That path is about iterative steps from where we're at to achieve our goal, not this "throw the last 10 years of work out the door and start from scratch."

 

This is the last response you will get from me.  It takes too much time.

 

Thank you

 

+1

[bungee91]

Looking forward to the upcoming release (with the ACS patch, woot! woot!), and all the effort to keep us updated with the progress/path forward.

Thanks again!

 

 

[Thornwood]

Jomp, Eric, Tom M and Tom H.

 

Thank you. You have a great product that can be seen by many that cares about our data and try's to protect us from loosing it.

 

I personally enjoy Unraid and all the plugins and new stuff you are adding.

My customers love the ease it bring them and peace of mind in cost savings.

 

Keep up the great work.

 

 

 

Thornwood

[jonp]

Jomp, Eric, Tom M and Tom H.

 

Thank you. You have a great product that can be seen by many that cares about our data and try's to protect us from loosing it.

 

I personally enjoy Unraid and all the plugins and new stuff you are adding.

My customers love the ease it bring them and peace of mind in cost savings.

 

Keep up the great work.

 

 

 

Thornwood

 

Thanks guys!  We greatly appreciate the support and really are looking forward to bringing you even more return on your existing investment!

[jakea333]

...

I can't find a nicer way to say this:  If you don't like where we are headed, leave.  We are moving forward to make unRAID better and better.

...

 

Thank you

 

+1

 

+2

 

One thing I don't see myself doing on my small form factor build is installing a video card. If iGPU is part of the plan then I might see what I could do with that capability. Just some of the usual media apps with a web interface is all I need.

 

Just for another perspective, in a very similar SFF build I am using a card to do passthrough (for a Plex front-end). While iGPU capability would be great, I can manage just fine without. Just noting that there are folks using these features.

 

Thanks Jon and LT, I really appreciate the new drive towards making an even better product!

[trurl]

...I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM...

Actually I am using a VM now, and it is running most of my addons. I'm just not doing video with it, and don't really need to at this time.

[JustinChase]

...I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM...

Actually I am using a VM now, and it is running most of my addons. I'm just not doing video with it, and don't really need to at this time.

 

Sorry if I put 'incorrect' words in your mouth, that was not my intention.

[bjreich]

I just wanted to say thanks to the LT team for the direction they are taking the product.  From some all of the negative comments that have been made recently you would think that Unraid was a mess that no one in their right mind should use - which is absolutely not correct.  I'm an IT professional of 22 years, IT Manager of 10 and Unraid user of just over 4 years.  I've been running an array of 12 disks since the start (up to 25 Tb now) and in the time I've been using Unraid I've experienced ZERO data loss.  In that time I've lost 6 disks and Unraid has saved me every time.  And more importantly Unraid did this with almost no effort whatsoever, which appeals to the side of me that feels I already do enough IT work at work.

 

I currently have a gaming PC, HTPC, Unraid server running SAB, CouchPotato, AirHD, Plex and Sickbeard, and my son is now old enough to need a PC to game with me on, as well.  Over the last couple months I've researched, researched, and then researched some more before carefully choosing a set of hardware to use unraid to virtualise them all onto.  When your next beta is released it should be at the stage for me to KVM my various PC's under unraid with SAB and all my other services bundled into dockers, which is the sort of efficiency and service isolation my IT mind loves.

 

Helping users select the correct hardware for making this all work will be key to people having a good experience with all the virtualisation technology.  I suggest picking a hardware set that you are using (that is also commonly available) and documenting that as a template for less experienced users to copy and have a seamless experience with.

 

Thanks again for all your efforts and direction, Unraid is getting even better with every new beta.

 

[butlerpeter]

Most definitely!  We are open to the idea of another distro (never said we weren't).  Bottom line is that would be a bigger change to make than we can at this point for unRAID 6.  I am not promising anything for unRAID 7, but if there was a time to reassess the underlying operating system, unRAID 7 would be a good time to do that I think.  No promises being made here, but want folks to know that we aren't opposed to changing how we do things.  All to be reviewed in due time.

Sorry but having read through the thread I must speak up in grumpys defence.

 

This above quote mirrors something grumpy had suggested earlier - do v6 then explore a distro change for 7.

 

I know that grumpy has been banging on a bit lately about changing distro, but he does have some good reasons and suggestions for why it might be a good idea. If a reply along the lines of the above quote had come sooner perhaps grumpy wouldn't have banged that particular drum quite so much. In turn perhaps that would have also stopped things getting so "hostile" (for want of a better word).

 

I know that grumpy can seem a bit abrasive in some of his posts (I guess the clue is in his user name?!), but I do personally find many of his posts to be interesting, informative and educational. He is obviously an individual with a great deal of knowledge and experience (as are many of the users here).

 

As far as I can recall many of his rants/suggestions/topics of discussion have been to do with improving unRAID in some way or another.

 

With that in mind I find it a bit harsh that someone who suggests good things, albeit in not always the most friendly manner, be told to "leave".

 

Personally I hope that grumpy stays around and continues to contribute to the community.

 

 

On the subject of changing distro, perhaps at sometime - could be today, could be next month, month after or whatever, but before work starts on v7 - a discussion thread could be opened where the pros and cons could be debated?

[prostuff1]

I know that grumpy has been banging on a bit lately about changing distro, but he does have some good reasons and suggestions for why it might be a good idea. If a reply along the lines of the above quote had come sooner perhaps grumpy wouldn't have banged that particular drum quite so much. In turn perhaps that would have also stopped things getting so "hostile" (for want of a better word).

No, he would have and did.  Grumpy is a very smart individual, but the constant repeating of his points, in a usually hostile manner, was fraying the nerves of everyone, us mods especially.  We don't try to "censor" anyone on the forum, that is not a good habit to get into...ever, but post after post after post after post was constantly the same thing.

 

All the stuff he kept mentioning was in a thread already... which if I remember correctly he deleted (or something to that effect. It may still exist, I am just not awake enough to find it at this current time).

 

I know that grumpy can seem a bit abrasive in some of his posts (I guess the clue is in his user name?!), but I do personally find many of his posts to be interesting, informative and educational. He is obviously an individual with a great deal of knowledge and experience (as are many of the users here).

Yes, but his post leave something to be desired... respect.  His approach is not one that is conducive or productive in the long run.  LimeTech is under NO obligation to share ANY of there plans and roadmaps with us.  They are a private company.  You would not expect Apple, Adobe, Microsoft, etc to release news of every feature that is going into there product.  Unless you feel like paying for a closed beta program to get access to and features of news...

 

As far as I can recall many of his rants/suggestions/topics of discussion have been to do with improving unRAID in some way or another.

 

With that in mind I find it a bit harsh that someone who suggests good things, albeit in not always the most friendly manner, be told to "leave".

His attitude and approach is unhealthy for the forum.  I don't like going into the complaint thread, but I do because I have to moderate it.  His attitude is that of a child that keeps demanding something until he gets what he wants.  I know for myself that if I did that as an eight year old my dad would have spanked me red, taken my toys away and told me to sit in the corner.

 

On the subject of changing distro, perhaps at sometime - could be today, could be next month, month after or whatever, but before work starts on v7 - a discussion thread could be opened where the pros and cons could be debated?

This is ultimately a business choice and public opinion may or may not add anything of value to that discussion.  LimeTech can make that choice when the time comes.  I know from my end of things, I would probably not open it to a public discussion as some may not even grasp the benefit/side effect of choosing one distro over another.

 

 

 

If grumpy is so unhappy with the way unRAID is then he can use his special distro he has built himself and go from there.  He can post his findings and what not in a thread, which he did at one point, and keep everything there.  Instead he spammed every other thread with the same information, over and over and over again.

[trurl]

...I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM...

Actually I am using a VM now, and it is running most of my addons. I'm just not doing video with it, and don't really need to at this time.

 

Sorry if I put 'incorrect' words in your mouth, that was not my intention.

No, I didn't take it that way. Just wanted to clarify my position. I am not one of the VM naysayers. Just perhaps not as interested in video passthru as jonp seems to be.

[trurl]

...I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM...

Actually I am using a VM now, and it is running most of my addons. I'm just not doing video with it, and don't really need to at this time.

 

Sorry if I put 'incorrect' words in your mouth, that was not my intention.

No, I didn't take it that way. Just wanted to clarify my position. I am not one of the VM naysayers. Just perhaps not as interested in video passthru as jonp seems to be.

And I am probably not alone in not wanting to add a video card to my miniITX system. The only PCIe slot I have on my mobo is used to provide additional SATA ports.

[archedraft]

...I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM...

Actually I am using a VM now, and it is running most of my addons. I'm just not doing video with it, and don't really need to at this time.

 

Sorry if I put 'incorrect' words in your mouth, that was not my intention.

No, I didn't take it that way. Just wanted to clarify my position. I am not one of the VM naysayers. Just perhaps not as interested in video passthru as jonp seems to be.

And I am probably not alone in not wanting to add a video card to my miniITX system. The only PCIe slot I have on my mobo is used to provide additional SATA ports.

 

Meanwhile, I am contemplating adding 2 or 3 graphics cards and reducing as many computer as possible! (That is assuming that the VM's are just about as stable as bare metal when all this is said and done...) I am super excited to start playing with KVM when the latest VM updates are released from LT!

[Thornwood]

So running the vm and vnc in should still work right. Kind of gotten use to running headless so would this be a viable idea still?

 

 

Thornwood

[jimbobulator]

And I am probably not alone in not wanting to add a video card to my miniITX system. The only PCIe slot I have on my mobo is used to provide additional SATA ports.

 

Meanwhile, I am contemplating adding 2 or 3 graphics cards and reducing as many computer as possible! (That is assuming that the VM's are just about as stable as bare metal when all this is said and done...) I am super excited to start playing with KVM when the latest VM updates are released from LT!

 

Another data point:  I'm interested in having a GPU in a small form factor NAS.  I am planning a rebuild of my unraid box into a small form factor HTPC style case.  Then I'll do some experimenting with passing a GPU through for use as a HTPC and receiving steam streams from my gaming rig running windows.  If this goes well,  I may eventually turn my gaming rig into the unraid server (either unraid as hypervisor or another hypervisor with virtualized unraid) and use the SFF box as a front end HTPC and receiving steam streams and possibly as also an unraid backup box.

 

I'm looking forward to a simple unified approach to managing VMs in Unraid that doesn't involve a significant amount of messing around.  I enjoy the geek stuff but I don't have time for it anymore, otherwise I'd just set up a system on Arch or Debian or whatever and do it all myself.  I like the blend of DIY/geek and easy-to-use that unraid currently provides and hopefully will provide with future functionality.

[nightanole]

As a person who couldnt code his way out of a paper back, and at best can make a few scripts, I love unraid. 

 

At its core (compared to most "boxed" solutions):

A jump drive based Os that can, in an emergency, be plugged into most systems along with the drives to get you data back online.  Anything happens to your store bought nas box and you are sol.

Any drive can be taken out of the array and get the data from.  You lose 2 drives in a store bought nas, bye bye data.

If my buddy wants to join Unraid, i can just clone my jump drive and buy a key.

 

You cant get this on any other platform.

 

A few things i would like:

64 bit if it means i can have a huge cache(aka caches a 1-16 gig file i started playing, and then just shuts the drives down again) or make some nice ram drives to run torrents or other massive write applications.

More than one parity/cache drive.  Ive already lost one, and i just bit the bullet and now have a precleaned hot drive for any other disk deaths.

25-35meg a sec writes...  I dont think this will ever improve just because of the nature of the tech, but boy does it take along time to load up a new server or use it as a steam repository.

[ars92]

...I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM...

Actually I am using a VM now, and it is running most of my addons. I'm just not doing video with it, and don't really need to at this time.

 

Sorry if I put 'incorrect' words in your mouth, that was not my intention.

No, I didn't take it that way. Just wanted to clarify my position. I am not one of the VM naysayers. Just perhaps not as interested in video passthru as jonp seems to be.

And I am probably not alone in not wanting to add a video card to my miniITX system. The only PCIe slot I have on my mobo is used to provide additional SATA ports.

Yeah I'm using the h87i plus too and would like to use the Intel graphics rather than a radeon. 

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

 

 

[meep]

...I think what turl was saying is that if iGPU doesn't work (correct hardware or not), he can't/won't put a PCI video card in his computer, so he's not sure if he could use his machine for a VM...

Actually I am using a VM now, and it is running most of my addons. I'm just not doing video with it, and don't really need to at this time.

 

Sorry if I put 'incorrect' words in your mouth, that was not my intention.

No, I didn't take it that way. Just wanted to clarify my position. I am not one of the VM naysayers. Just perhaps not as interested in video passthru as jonp seems to be.

And I am probably not alone in not wanting to add a video card to my miniITX system. The only PCIe slot I have on my mobo is used to provide additional SATA ports.

 

Meanwhile, I am contemplating adding 2 or 3 graphics cards and reducing as many computer as possible! (That is assuming that the VM's are just about as stable as bare metal when all this is said and done...) I am super excited to start playing with KVM when the latest VM updates are released from LT!

 

I have simular ambitions for multiple windows vms, several with gpu passthrough, running on top of unraid.

 

Have this pretty much working under xen in beta5.

 

Just wanted to be sure this use case didn't get lost amongst all the comments on ' we don't need no stinking passthroug'

 

Looking forward to getting up to speeding kvm when the marvell issue gets resolved.

[kaiguy]

I've been a member of this community for a few years now and have stayed out of all of these discussions on unRAID 6, since I'm still rocking 5.0.5 and don't have a test machine.  I've been patiently waiting for the point where 6 is stable and the feature mix is finalized to take the plunge.  I've quietly watched while grumpy and ironic and others made great advances on their own with virtualization (and really led the charge in general), and the arrival of new LT employees like jonp, who has done such a great job updating us.  Perhaps I shouldn't have waited for so long to chime in, but now I feel I have to.

 

Am I really in the minority in agreeing with grumpy, thinking that Slackware is a dead distro and unRAID needs to update to a modern distro?  At the very least, having quick security patches should be a priority for ANY Linux machine, no?  The mishmash of packages from various sources compiled for different kernels--it's a mess.  I only run 2 or 3 apps on unRAID now adays, but making sure they're running efficiently and with recent packages is a constant struggle.  How nice would it be to have a legit package manager?  Or to have a distro that has community support outside of these forums?

 

Like madburg, am I one of only a few that is shocked that basic core functions of a NAS like UPS support and email notifications are still dependent upon community plugins? 

 

I see the amazing potential of Docker and virtualization (I've been running unRAID as a guest since Johnm shared his build with the community), but really question having GPU passthrough for gaming and video applications taking a development priority to glaring omissions still left out of unRAID.  I still don't find NFS stable for my uses, and AFP is pretty much useless as is.  Heck, my Asus router does TimeMachine a heck of a lot better than unRAID, and that's unfortunate.  Thankfully SMB still works well, or else even the NAS functionality of unRAID would be crippled.

 

It's hard to meet everyone's expectations, but let's not forget what made unRAID what it is today: storage.  That should at least take an equal share of development and innovation as passing through 2 GPUs.  And let's be honest--is that really going to be the majority use case?  Don't most of us use unRAID for our media storage?  So we already have media player clients and the such?

 

Forgive the rant.  I just keep on seeing the same things over and over in the forums...