Should I swap out for AMD hardware?

[TyantA]

Could use some input on this as Friday (Win 10 update deadline) is quickly approaching and I need to finalize hardware choices.

 

Build purpose:

Media/file server, Plex, centralized backup, owncloud, crashplan, (bunch of other dockers), dabble in VMs - W10 install that I wouldn't mind gaming on if I can pull it off, perhaps a W7 32bit for retro gaming with my old peripherals that aren't supported in 64bit/newer oses. etc. I also like the idea of streaming to other thin clients (old, under powered hardware) throughout the house but I don't know if I'll get this far. 

 

My unraid box is currently running on:

Core i7 3820, socket 2011 chip on an Asus P9X79 board. This was my previous workstation setup and thought it would be a great platform for my unraid box (way better than the Sempron 140 I started with!). But:

• Until today, I falsely assumed the vanilla P9X79 would support VT-d. It supports VT-x but not d. This really hampers the whole gaming angle / good performance out of my vm.
  
• The higher-end P9X79 E WS, according to its manual, supports VT-d so this is pretty frustrating to learn.
  
• The processor supports it. So I'm really just limited by my motherboard.
  
• It made sense to me to use this board as it supports up to 128GB of ram, which I understand is typically a VM's limitation.
  

 

A few months back I picked up some parts for a secondary "retro" gaming PC and because I was curious about dabbling with AMD parts after some time, play with some overclocking, etc. that I'd rather not do on my main production rig that I rely on for work. I picked up a Phenom II X6 1100T which supports IOMMU and so does the Gigabyte GA-990FXA-UD5, apparently. With this setup I:

• Seemingly have full support of IOMMU
  
• Have a 6 core processor vs 4/hyperthreading
  
• Have 8 sata (+ 2 eSATA) ports instead of 6 so I could actually build out a cache pool. I'm out of sata ports on my current setup.
  
• have 6 PCI-E slots to play with
  

 

On the down side:

• Hotter processor (160w TDP vs 130w
  
• 32GB max memory
  
• I lose my "tinkering" gaming box... but the other setup would work fine as a secondary gaming PC as well.
  

 

Actually, in theory... if the VM worked well enough, because my unraid box lives under the stairs, directly behind where the secondary gaming pc was going to live (attached to TV), I could run cables through the wall to the TV and sell the 8320 setup period. Then the unraid box would handle all those duties.

 

Thoughts? What would you do?

[SpaceInvaderOne]

I guess you mean the Core i7 3820?  not 8320.

 

I would use the intel chip all day long. The passmark is around 9000 on the intel, whilst the amd is 5800. Single thread is also only 1259 on amd and 1900 on the intel. So the intel i7 3820 is far better cpu than the Phenom II X6 1100T.

 

If you want a gaming vm on your unraid the intel chip is the way to go. I would just get a mb that supports vt-d and sell the amd stuff and/or the intel motherboard you have now.

 

Needing 128GB memory i doubt you would ever need anything like that. 16 to 32 gig for most is fine. So dont worry about if a mb doesnt support 128GB.

 

As regarding the win 10 upgrade you can make your win 10 machine now as is virtual hardware will work on any unraid system you have. Check this thread http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=50533.0

 

[tdallen]

@gridrunner +1

[TyantA]

I guess you mean the Core i7 3820?  not 8320.

 

I would use the intel chip all day long. The passmark is around 9000 on the intel, whilst the amd is 5800. Single thread is also only 1259 on amd and 1900 on the intel. So the intel i7 3820 is far better cpu than the Phenom II X6 1100T.

 

If you want a gaming vm on your unraid the intel chip is the way to go. I would just get a mb that supports vt-d and sell the amd stuff and/or the intel motherboard you have now.

 

Needing 128GB memory i doubt you would ever need anything like that. 16 to 32 gig for most is fine. So dont worry about if a mb doesnt support 128GB.

 

As regarding the win 10 upgrade you can make your win 10 machine now as is virtual hardware will work on any unraid system you have. Check this thread http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=50533.0

 

Yes, 3820. I realize it's the better performer. I was trying to stay within the parts I had, and when I realized the AMD board supported IOMMU and my intel board didn't, well, that was a curveball I wasn't expecting.

 

My first thought had been to get a board that did support VT-d but the quick check I did for the P9X79 E -WS brought back some scary prices. I'll have to broaden my search and decide how much it really means to me I guess. I don't expect I'll need that much memory any time soon but the 8 slots the 2011 platform has leaves the upgrade path nice and open.

 

The latter point was my biggest fear. What do I do *now* about the W10 upgrade. As per that thread, if there are no issues making changes to the VM provided I know my UUID, then I'm fine! One just never knows with Microsoft and activation... Off to try and install W10 on the current setup then! And I get to keep my vintage build haha.

[jumperalex]

the benefit to the AMD hardware, at least when I boult the rig in my sig, was that it was cheaper to get VM and ECC memory capable hardware because with Intel you have to go server parts but with AMS you can go ASUS consumer.  That might have changed and there is still the choice of what performance level to shoot for and the cost to get it. Its just that cheap iommu and ECC support is (was) not easy.

[00b5]

I'd look around for MB for that cpu that supports vt-d. Its a great CPU, i'd hand on to and use it.

 

Surely there is more than one, you could probably find any last (last) gen asrock/etc and it should support vt-d. Could even find one with more sata ports/etc?

 

But ya, keep the intel.

 

Regarding Win10, you can still spin it up in a VM, and get it activated etc. I don't think it will change so much to invalidate the liscense inside a vm, regardless of the actual MB of the host. Its all emulated anyway (and vt-d, you'd probably just pass through a GPU/USB/etc, which shouldn't do much).

 

Then again, I have no idea how it even activates in a VM in the first place.

[TyantA]

the benefit to the AMD hardware, at least when I boult the rig in my sig, was that it was cheaper to get VM and ECC memory capable hardware because with Intel you have to go server parts but with AMS you can go ASUS consumer.  That might have changed and there is still the choice of what performance level to shoot for and the cost to get it. Its just that cheap iommu and ECC support is (was) not easy.

 

Exactly. I don't recall exactly, but I spent less thatn $200 on both 1100T and Gigabyte motherboard. Can't say the same for the Intel hardware I own!

I'd look around for MB for that cpu that supports vt-d. Its a great CPU, i'd hand on to and use it.

 

Surely there is more than one, you could probably find any last (last) gen asrock/etc and it should support vt-d. Could even find one with more sata ports/etc?

 

But ya, keep the intel.

 

Regarding Win10, you can still spin it up in a VM, and get it activated etc. I don't think it will change so much to invalidate the liscense inside a vm, regardless of the actual MB of the host. Its all emulated anyway (and vt-d, you'd probably just pass through a GPU/USB/etc, which shouldn't do much).

 

Then again, I have no idea how it even activates in a VM in the first place.

 

It's been a long time since I've owned an ASRock board! This looks like beast though: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/X99%20WS-E10G/index.us.asp Hah! But ~$700USD, let along NewEgg Canada doesn't carry it... I had better keep looking

[SpaceInvaderOne]

 

It's been a long time since I've owned an ASRock board! This looks like beast though: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/X99%20WS-E10G/index.us.asp Hah! But ~$700USD, let along NewEgg Canada doesn't carry it... I had better keep looking

 

I think that board is x99 2011 v3  so dont think will work with your cpu. You would need a x79 board.

A few here https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dcomputers&field-keywords=x79  but yeah i see what you mean by the x79 being expensive.

 

Why not just sell the intel cpu and board together and get an skylake i7 6700k $349  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819117559&cm_re=6700k-_-19-117-559-_-Product  and asrock z170 board only $117 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157635&cm_re=ASRock_Z170_Pro4_LGA_1151-_-13-157-635-_-Product

 

so $470 to get new cpu and mb that will do what you want. I bet looking at prices of x79 on ebay you would easily get $470 for your cpu and asus motherboard.

[TyantA]

That's a possibility.

 

There's also a possibility that... with the right bios, my board DOES support VT-d? (So confused).

 

According to this thread: https://hardforum.com/threads/asus-official-x79-motherboards-support-thread.1651429/ "4. Enable VT-d support for VT-d enabled processor."

 

I'm using the latest beta bios for the board. I would assume the feature would have stuck around but perhaps not. There's just the generic Virtualization option in the current bios, and IOMMU says disabled in unraid so I concluded it wasn't supported. Maybe a bios version will do the trick or maybe I missed something basic on the unraid side of things?

 

I have now effectively wasted 3/4 of my day on this lol. Who needs to work...

 

Edit: And yes, I noticed right after I posted that X99 was LGA2011-3 only which wasn't going to work for me. Seems silly to spend money on another X79 board and maybe... I won't have to?

Edit 2: From the official Asus site, the 3rd bios release way back in 2011 added support for VT-d on my board. So... what gives? https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/P9X79/HelpDesk_Download/

[SpaceInvaderOne]

Yeah i had a board once that when i used the latest bios it broke iommu and said it wasnt enabled in unraid. although was toggled on in mb bios. I went back a few bios revisions and it worked. Sometimes on bios revisions they break the vt-d so may be worth a try. If you have wasted 3/4 of your day on it , may as well round it up to a whole day lol 

[TyantA]

Yeah i had a board once that when i used the latest bios it broke iommu and said it wasnt enabled in unraid. although was toggled on in mb bios. I went back a few bios revisions and it worked. Sometimes on bios revisions they break the vt-d so may be worth a try. If you have wasted 3/4 of your day on it , may as well round it up to a whole day lol 

 

Haha, that's what I was thinking

 

So now I'm feeling both stupid and happy. Stupid happy?

 

Armed with the last 3 bios releases I went to keep reverting but I thought I'd check once more to make sure I hadn't missed anything in the current bios. Turns out, I had. Everything I was reading mentioned it would be in the CPU config section. I thought I had gone through every menu item but apparently I completely missed the section I needed. I have this guy's post to thank (he had a screenshot). And while my bios doesn't look like that, with the board being close enough (LE version) I figured it had to be there. Sure enough, under "System Agent Configuration"

 

Now I see:

HVM: Enabled!

IOMMU: Enabled!

 

Better than spending big bucks on a sideways "upgrade". Now on to figure out how to do this passthrough shenanigans Hopefully the stupid feeling will wear off soon enough...

[jumperalex]

so something you might consider doing is post a new thread with all your findings and doings, with all the key search terms someone might use, a good descriptive subject, and maybe even a few screen shots based on your board.

 

Save the next poor soul 3/4 of a day

[TyantA]

Yeah for sure. Still not there yet though. Next I need to play around with passthrough & various VM settings to focus on performance. Can't dedicate another day to that right now though!

[jumperalex]

Fair enough on Time.

 

As for the What though ... I'd say you might not have to pay too much attention to documenting how to passthru since that is pretty well covered elsewhere. That is, unless you have to do something specific to your hardware?

 

Which is the bit I think could be helpful to others, what you had to do specific to your hardware to get iomuu turned on and recognized my unRaid. Once that is done the process is mostly hardware agnostic.

 

Just my final two cents ;-)

[Iguanac64]

*reads some latin from an ominous looking book*

*rings a bell that looks vaguely like a human skull*

*lights some black candles around a pentagram*

*raises this thread from the dead to thank TyantA*

You saved me from having to post and embarrassing myself by asking a question that had already been answered in the forums!  I have this same motherboard and I totally missed the VT-d setting even though I was looking through the BIOS for it.