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ECC still a good idea?


SavellM

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So I've been away from unRAID for many years and deciding to come back to it now with all the latest updates.

Planning on building a new NAS for it, and wondering if its still a good idea to get ECC ram?

If so can anyone recommend a good ECC mobo for something latest generation?

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Welcome back!

 

Yes, ECC memory continues to be recommended for server builds, but it is not an absolute requirement.

 

There are a number of options for a new rig, and depends a lot of what you plan to do with it.

 

Recently there has been a lot of advancement in the area of virtual machines. Users have begun to use VMs to replace physical workstations - even powerful gaming rigs are running as VMs. There was a video from Linus (Linux YouTube guy) where two gaming VMs were setup on one unRAID server yielding very good performance on each. Depending on the number of VMs and performance needs of the VMs, the number and speed of CPU cores become important.

 

And if you are running VMs, the video / keyboard become a question. unRAID allows you to pass through a video card and USB controller to a VM, allowing it to operate just like a physical machine. Mine is that way, and I am running a 4K display and you'd never know it was a VM. Most motherboards would allow you to run one such VM. But you may also have a second VM, say as a media player for a TV. It would also need to pass through video. The number and speeds of motherboard slots become important if this is your desire. And more fundamentally the number of PCIe lanes of the platform become important. Since most video cards are now double width, and you'd need to have both the video cards and disk controllers accounted for. So not just the number but also the physical configuration become important. I have a 16 drive controller in my rig to allow room for the video card. It is a tight fit but works. But I could never add a second passthrough (although I could use the passthrough I have with 2 different VMs, so long as both are not running at the same time).

 

The other use case that tends to drive the need for high performance and more cores is video transcodes with something like PLEX. Although serving a video file is pretty lightweight for unRAID, converting that video file into a specific format for something like a phone or tablet can be resource intensive. And needing to convert one is different than needing to convert 2, 3, 4 or more at the same time. The rule of thumb is you need ~2,000 Passmark for each transcode.

 

Somewhat related, 4k video has become more common, and the need to support HEVC decoding in hardware is important to some users. If this is your primary use case this will have some affect on your choices. Because transcoding ONE can drag a very powerful Xeon to its knees, while a much less powerful Celeron or Pentium might be able to do it with ease if it has the hardware assist (i.e., Kaby Lake). Having a video card in the server can also provide the needed hardware assist, although I am far from an expert here and research would be required to determine which transcoders will work with Kaby Lake and/or video cards in this way.

 

So the most common questions asked for new users is how many VMs, how may passthroughs, and how many simultaneous transcodes are needed. That is a good starting place when looking at a new CPU / motherboard.

 

My general recommendation is a an Kaby Lake. It comes in different varieties from Pentium to Xeon. One that supports ECC is suggested. A 4-core version with 32G of memory is a powerful platform and meets the needs of many users. It is tried and true and users should not expect a lot of difficulty with a motherboard from one of the larger companies.

 

Older generations like Hasswell (which is what I have), Brasswell, and Sky Lake are also options, but you loose some of the HEVC features (e.g., Brasswell / Sky Lake with handle 8-bit decodes but not 10 bit). But these are cheaper - all comes down to your needs and the budget.

 

The other option which has peaked interest is the new RyZen platform from AMD, which offers more cores for a low price. These have been somewhat problematic with unRAID, although a handful of users are running them successfully, and as Linux support matures, support continues to improve. But it takes a certain kind of person to be on the bleeding edge of processor support. That may sound a little extreme, as we're probably almost past bleeding edge, but there are still challenges that uses face, particularly if hardware passthrough is a driving need.

 

The final option is there are some big, powerful older generation rack mount servers that are available for cheap on eBay. They have multiple CPUs, lots of cores, and support a tremendous amount of memory. Although not energy efficient and loud, depending on your needs especially for transcoding, these offer a price to performance ratio that is more than alluring to some users. You need to be well educated to know the right questions to ask (some backplanes are limited to 2T drives). I will mention that we do have some buyers remorse occasionally here, desiring to downgrade to a less powerful machine due to some of the negatives of the large servers. Another negative - despite being big and powerful, the motherboards are often very sparse of expansion slots due to their primary use case mostly as web servers in big server farms. So if your goal is lots of cores to support lots of passthrough VMs, you may be dissappointed.

 

I'll add one more item. The most common problem people have with their unRAID servers, and this hasn't changed for the nearly 10 years I have been here, is drives dropping due to cables problems. I highly highly recommend hot-swap style cages for the drives. The CSE-M35T-1B is my favorite, but there are numerous models available.

 

Read this and consider what you are really looking for, and respond back with more details around your usage and I think people will be able to better answer the question.

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Wow what an awesome reply!

 

Ok so my main use will be a Plex Media server dishing out content at 4k, and multiple streams to other devices.

So will need something that can transcode well. Also going to run it in Docker.

 

Next I will have a bunch of downloaders running in dockers too.

This will probably not be a gaming machine at all.

But will probably have a few VM's.

 

So ECC for the file server would be good.

Do you have any recommendations on a Mobo and CPU for 4k Plex transcoding that supports ECC?

Dont care about budget, just want something good!

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I'd go with the Kaby Lake. There are i7s, E3s, and E5s. You can even get dual E5 Xeons to up the cores if money is no object. If you go with earlier generation chips, the "K" versions did not support VT-d. You definitely want VT-d enabled. I don't remember when this stopped and unlikely to affect you, but just mentioning.

 

16G barely enough - I'd go with 32G or even 64G if you are going for 8 cores. There are transcode options into RAM you could consider.

 

I don't have specific motherboard recommendations. They come and go very quickly, so really only the recent buyers are up to date on current offerings. I'd look at SuperMicro, ASRock, ASUS, and Gigabyte. Once you've identified some options, I'd be in a better position to comment on them if you post links.

 

For the case I like something like an Antec 900 with 3 of the aforementioned CSE-M35T-1Bs (15 drives). Or an Antec 1200 (or similar) that can handle 4 cages (20 drives). These style cases are harder to find now, but they are the best IMHO for unRAID server. They have a very small footprint, and once setup with the cages, you almost never have to open the case and risk disturbing the delicate cabling. (See pic below of an Antec 900 with 15 drives). 

 

Although passthrough is not your primary driver, I'd get a motherboard that can handle one passthrough (shouldn't be hard - I expect that all would handle one. Remember the adjacent slot is burned). I'd love to be able to have one more, and 2 will be a requirement when I am ready to upgrade - one for Windows workstation and one for video playing. It may not be at the top of your list now (it wasn't on mine), but I expect you'll reach a point that you want that feature. One advantage of the virtualized workstation, you have very fast access to the array. No network is involved. I was copying data a over 230 MB/sec to an unassigned device. Best I could muster from dedicated workstation on the LAN was about 80.

 

Think about your array size, and consider something like an LSI SAS9201-16i. A tad expensive, even on eBay, but gives a lot of drive support in one slot.

 

If the absolute highest level of gaming performance is not required, it is ok for the x16 slot to only be wired for x8. Even with gaming, if you look at the stats, the difference between x8 and x16 is negligible at PCIe 3.0.

 

My ASRock E3C224-4L motherboard is laid out like this ...

- PCIe 3.0 x16 slot (wired for x8) - EVGA 1050Ti video card (double wide)

- PCIe 3.0 x4 slot (wired for x0 or x4) - unusable due to video card, gives its lanes to slot #3 (x0)

- PCIe 3.0 x16 slot (wired for x4 or x8) - LSI SAS9201-16i (card is PCIe 2.0 at x8)

- PCIe 2.0 x1 slot (wired for x1) - Areca ARC-1200, used for RAID0 parity (card is PCIe 1.1)

 

Would prefer one more at least x4 slot. But this works.

 

By the way, steer clear of Marvel-based controllers, including the once very popular SuperMicro AOC-SASLP and AOC-SASLP2s. Some people have no problems with them, but others do, especially those running VMs and passthrough. .Believe me, you don't want issues with your disk controller card. Go with the LSIs.

 

5988591e15174_Antec900with5-in-3s.png.08ea2b46246046f00027aaa2932891c8.png

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This is where I'm up to right now.

ECC Build    
Mobo   ASUS P10S WS
     
CPU   Intel Kaby Lake Xeon E3 1225 v6
     
Ram   2x Crucial 8GB PC4-17000 (2133) ECC
     
PSU   Silverstone 550 Watt 80 PLUS Platinum
     
HDD   4x Seagate IronWolf 8TB ST8000VN0022
     
Case   Corsair Obsidian 750D - Silenced
     
SSD  

1x Samsung 256gb m.2 (cache)

 

How does this look for a starter? 

Can add more as I go or if I need a GPU later on in life (I have a few spare)

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Here are some other motherboards that might be worth looking at. I like IPMI, which the one you picked doesn't have. But I really like the other features of that board, and do think it would be a good choice, especially if you are not already spoiled by having IPMI. None of the ones below rock my world but all or most have IPMI.

 

SUPERMICRO MBD-X11SSM-F-O Micro ATX Server Motherboard LGA 1151 Intel C236
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813183013


SUPERMICRO MBD-X11SSI-LN4F-O ATX Server Motherboard
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813182997


Supermicro X11SAT-F Workstation Motherboard - Intel C236 Chipset - Socket H4 LGA-1151 - Retail Pack
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813183016


ASRock E3C236D4U mATX Server Motherboard LGA 1151 Intel C236
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813599006

 

The case looks beautiful, but for the reasons I laid out above, I would rather see you in something with hot swap bays. The ability to swap a problematic drive without taking the computer apart and touching the drive cables is very important to trouble free NAS operation. Given the focus on quiet, I am assuming quiet is a primary requirement, and you'll do what you want, but I can tell you every time you touch the cables you are adding risk. It DOES look like that case would support 1 hot swap unit (good for 5 drives). And maybe there are hot swap options that I am not seeing or understanding. If there are, it looks great!

 

Memory is a tad light. I'd go with 32G. For one thing, I'd rather not see you buy 8G chips, which will limit your ultimate expansion. If you only want 16G, see about getting one larger module and not a pair of smaller ones.

 

I am not a huge Seagate fan. Look at the HGST 7200 Helio's. Same price and these guys are awesome. But there is a cheapskate in me, and you can buy 8T drives for $160-$180, and for 2 extra TB, you are paying double. Granted, you have to shuck them, but that is $20-$22 / TB, vs upwards of $35. Just sayin' :) 

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Hi - 

 

The E3-1225v6 is a 4 core CPU, without hyperthreading.  Since you mentioned VMs I'd go for a hyperthreaded CPU - it will give you more a little more horsepower and more flexibility with CPU assignments.  You need to go a little further up the E3 food chain to get one, I think they start around the E3-1230 or so (I'd try to go to the 1245).

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Thanks for the advice about case and CPU guys.

 

I am going to be building this and hopefully not touching it to increase drives and so on, and let it live in a corner somewhere. Hence the quiet closed case.

 

I'll up the CPU and RAM as per the advice.

And I'll check out those boards.

 

Thanks all.

ps this forum has changed, and for the better!

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