Never had a server...advice welcomed!

[djglenn]

Hi,

 

My first post, and it comes after 2 weeks of researching Synology / Qnap / NAS / FreeNAS / unRAID, etc... 

 

Long story short, I currently store media in my home (ripped Blu-ray's, DVD's and Music) of which like to be able to access it via NVIDIA Sheild TV's and also my Sonus system (music).

 

Unfortunately I live in a 3 story house, and full hard cabled Ethernet is not an option (wife will kill me), so have ended up going with Power over Ethernet sockets as found wifi unable to stream 1080p+ content reliably.

 

Now the part you need to make sure your sitting down for if your a full server convert..... I currently store data in 2 locations, 1 is my main PC (1st floor) and 2 is my old HTPC (ground floor livingroom, which was replaced by a NVidia Shield). Neither location has any form of redundancy or backup, apart from my photo's which I have on an external USB as well....

 

The reason why I am using the HTPC to store as well as main PC, is because I have found streaming 4k movies unreliable via Kodi / SMB, and needed to keep them locally to the Shield TV. Both PC's are running Windows (7 for the HTPC, and 10 on Main PC).

 

In general I am finding Widows SMB shares temperamental, am annoyed I have 2 different locations for media, and concerned that I have zero backup (as some of my original disks are now damaged, I would lose the data forever if a HDD packed in).

 

To cut to the chase, I am considering modifying my HTPC build, or building a fresh machine to be dedicated to unRAID.

 

My current HTPC build is:

 

Intel G840 (2.8GHz, 2 core, 64bit)

Asus P8ZZ7-M (micro atx motherboard)

120GB Samsung EVO SSD

6GB WD Red HDD

2GB Ram

Scythe Big Shurken LP Cooler

Seasonic 400W PSU,

etc

 

Having lost a weekend reading the FreeNAS forums, it appears in most of their humble opinions that to have a NAS I require a £200 Server Motherboard, + 16GB of ECC RAM, etc. This would result in me binning all of my current HTPC (with exception to the PSU) and spending £500 on new kit.

 

When I read the unRAID forums, it appears to be less onerous (albeit a preference to the above), but believe I should be ok with the above by increasing the RAM, and by adding something like the LSI 9211-8i HBA? Would this be a fair assessment?

 

I dont mind spending the money if its needed, but dont want to waste money going for something overkill for my needs. All I need is a central source to store data, have some redundacy and be more reliable than windows SMB shares. I believe NFS is generally better for Kodi and unRAID supports it.. Also I use Plex for my daughter (to seperate libraries) so would be helpful to have the ability to run a plex server.

 

PS. I assume I could set a scheduler within unRAID to shutdown at night and reboot in the morning to save electricity?

 

Open to opinions, and am fine to invest in new hardware if there is a benefit to doing so!

 

Edit: Its worth explaining the reason why I am looking to unRAID is due to how the file system works, as I have mixed size HDD's and prefer not to lose TB's to a RAID array + like the ability to spin down drives not being used

Thanks!

Daniel

Edited February 19, 2018 by djglenn
typo

[pwm]

It seems the motherboard has 6 internal SATA connectors - so you might manage without any additional controller card.

 

But should at the very least aim for 4 GB of RAM.

 

You write "Power over Ethernet" but I assume you mean Ethernet over Power, i.e. using the mains cables. Have you verified your bandwidth? You are likely to do better with WiFi if you look at some external antennas with gain and the ability to aim - but that depends a bit on how much contention there is for the available frequencies.

Edited February 19, 2018 by pwm

[DoeBoye]

I think for a basic NAS, with a few dockers, your existing hardware should do just fine. as @pwm states, 4GB is definitely worthwhile. I ran a server for years with specs similar to yours, and had no issues.

 

Also, as an aside, if you are still having bandwidth issues, you might want to look at MoCA 2.0. It can give you near gigabit speeds and, in my experience, is much more stable/reliable than Powerline Ethernet.

[djglenn]

The reason why I was looking to the card controller was due to the recommendation within the system builders section in which it's to avoid a "bottleneck for parity sync/check". 

 

If I am honest I don't really understand what it does...just that I don't like bottlenecks.

 

Yes, Ethernet over Power..makes more sense that way around :-) How would I go about verifying my bandwidth?

 

I have never come across a MoCA 2 system, but looks really really interesting. Seems not readily available in the UK, but could get imported from the US...thanks!

 

D

[DoeBoye]

10 minutes ago, djglenn said:

I have never come across a MoCA 2 system, but looks really really interesting. Seems not readily available in the UK, but could get imported from the US...thanks!

I think this is a rebranded version of the model I bought from amazon. Looks like you can get it from Amazon UK as well :). I bought a unit from ji-tong because it was half the price of the Action-tec ones, and I have had no issues with it, though it is no longer sold (which concerns me a bit, but, as I said, mine has been flawless. I haven't re-booted due to a performance issue a single time in the over a year that I've owned it. I've had to move one of the adapters, and shut off all my networking stuff when traveling a few times though.).

 

I lied! You can't get it anymore in north america, but it seems to still be available in the UK. Here's a link to the ones I bought, though the one linked above seems to be 'newer'... These are low stock and may be the last of the product...

 

[JorgeB]

1 hour ago, djglenn said:

If I am honest I don't really understand what it does...just that I don't like bottlenecks.

It won't be a bottleneck for 6 HDDs, it would be if you were thinking of having an SSD only array.

[CHBMB]

My advice, be aware you're on a slippery slope.....

 

First thing you just want a simple file server, skip forward a few years and you end up with something like in my signature.

 

I've used powerline adapters to good effect for a number of years, albeit only with 1080p content as a maximum.  Which ones you using?

[tdallen]

Do you have an option to run any Ethernet cable at all?  Even a couple of runs could enable a much better Wifi solution.  Oh, and get up to at least 4GB, that will help for now.

[DZMM]

1 hour ago, tdallen said:

Do you have an option to run any Ethernet cable at all?  Even a couple of runs could enable a much better Wifi solution.  Oh, and get up to at least 4GB, that will help for now.

I agree.  If you buy quality APs like Unifi, you don't need to run cables all around the house - just to the APs and use wi-fi for everything else.

 

I'm in a 3 storey home as well, with my server in the loft and my main AV kit on the ground floor.  I tried powerline and one AP and it just didn't cut it for me.  What I did initially was buy 2 unifi APs and used the unraid docker to control, with the 2nd AP controlled by wireless uplink:

 

https://help.ubnt.com/hc/en-us/articles/205146000-UniFi-Set-up-UAPs-in-wireless-uplink-topology

 

I had one AP downstairs connected to my ISP router and the 2nd upstairs connected via uplink, providing connectivity to my server and other kit via a switch.  I was amazed how good the performance was, which was more than satisfactory but I eventually decided to run an ethernet cable upstairs when I built a pfsense VM (and one cable back down to the other AP). 

[tdallen]

I'm also running Unifi in a 3 story house.  I'm running 3 APs and it's almost overkill, I could have arranged adequate coverage with 2.  It's important to do a site survey and figure out where to put your APs, though.  I have sufficient cable in the walls that my APs are hard-wired, which is nice.

[djglenn]

And I am quickly reminded as to how non technical I am, despite having an engineering degree, ability to build and repair PC's and having a career with technical products...

 

What is the difference between Unifi AP's and just a standard wireless connection? Having a quick scan at the logic, it just looks to extend the wireless coverage?

 

I have a wireless signal all through my house, but I found when trying to stream a 1080p video from a central source (Main PC) to a TV via an Android box etc, then it kept buffering every 5s.

 

Also when transfering files... with wifi I was getting 5-10MBs moving a file from one physical location to another, where as with EoP am getting around 21MBs.

 

Complete network novice..however if I should do something better it would massively help as if I have the flexibility as to where I can locate a unRAID box would massively help as can avoid having to locate near my main TV!

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by djglenn
typo

[djglenn]

18 hours ago, CHBMB said:

My advice, be aware you're on a slippery slope.....

 

First thing you just want a simple file server, skip forward a few years and you end up with something like in my signature.

 

I've used powerline adapters to good effect for a number of years, albeit only with 1080p content as a maximum.  Which ones you using?

 

Hi, I have the "TP-Link TL-PA9020P KIT 2000 Mbps 2-Port Gigabit Passthrough Powerline Starter Kit" of which have in 4 locations:

 

1. Router (front hall)

2. Living room / TV & Nvidia shield

3. Main PC (first floor)

4. Bedroom / TV & Nvidia shield

[Hoopster]

@djglenn As others have mentioned, the UniFi APs are excellent WiFi devices.  If your only experience with WiFi is the consumer-grade all-in-one router/switch/WiFi units you don't know what is really possible via WiFi.  I live in a 2-story home and I have a UniFi UAP-AC-LR on each story.  The truth is that one would be sufficient for the whole house; I just liked the redundancy of having two.

 

The APs can run on Power over Ethernet (PoE) - this is where that term comes into play - so the Ethernet cable provides the power to the AP in addition to the Internet connectivity.

 

You definitely want at least 4GB RAM in your server.  As CHBMB has already warned you, when you see how functional unRAID is and how much you can do with it via dockers, VMs, etc., you, like the rest of us, will end up upgrading your server over time.  Other than a RAM upgrade, don't spend a lot on additional server upgrades until you are comfortable with your unRAID server and its capabilities.

 

Of course, if you choose to upgrade your WifI with UniFi equipment, that is completely independent of your server hardware choices and will work with anything.

 

I also have TP-Link powerline adapters, but, the performance of the UniFi APs is much better than the powerline adapters; consequently, I have "retired" the powerline adapters from use in my home.  Of course, if you cannot run Ethernet cables, powerline adapters are a good option, especially if you have poor WiFi in certain locations.

 

EDIT: With certain devices, of course, WiFi is your only option.  Running cables and wiring everything (even if that were possible) won't help with your phone, tablet, some laptops, refrigerator, coffee maker, video door bell and all the other things that these days are WiFi enabled.  If you have poor WiFi, that limits where portable devices can be used within your home and could determine if some devices can be used at all on a WiFi-enabled network.  Regardless of what you do to improve the performance of those devices which have an Ethernet connection, you may want to address your WiFi problem.  I did and the before and after difference is very, very noticeable.  There is not a device that enters my home on which it is not possible to stream 1080p content without buffering and that even extends to close by outside the home (assuming the device has antennas strong enough to communicate back to the access points).

Edited February 20, 2018 by Hoopster

[Hoopster]

2 hours ago, djglenn said:

What is the difference between Unifi AP's and just a standard wireless connection? Having a quick scan at the logic, it just looks to extend the wireless coverage?

 

Think of UniFi gear as the component approach to networking in which there is a specific piece of equipment for each networking function. Each piece performs one function and does it very well as that is what it is designed to do and nothing else.  

 

With most consumer-grade routers they are all-in-one units that combine routing/firewall/switching/WiFi all in a single piece of equipment.  They do an "adequate" job with everything, but not an excellent job with anything.

 

My home network consists of one UniFi USG for routing/firewall, two 8-port switches (each with four PoE ports for powering access points, cameras, other switches, etc.) and two UAP-AC-LR access points.

 

If you are an audiophile (HiFi instead of WiFi ) think of home audio equipment with a separate receiver, pre-amp, tuner, disc player, turntable (yes, I am old), speakers, etc. vs, the all-in-one cheaply-made and less-expensive units that attempted to combine everything into one or two pieces of equipment.  Which provided the better listening experience?  Of course, for many, the cost difference did not justify the additional expense since the-all-in-ones were perceived as "good enough" and easier to operate.  Those who wanted an excellent audio experience went with dedicated gear and learned how to maximize their listening experience.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Hoopster

[DZMM]

30 minutes ago, djglenn said:

 

Hi, I have the "TP-Link TL-PA9020P KIT 2000 Mbps 2-Port Gigabit Passthrough Powerline Starter Kit" of which have in 4 locations:

 

1. Router (front hall)

2. Living room / TV & Nvidia shield

3. Main PC (first floor)

4. Bedroom / TV & Nvidia shield

hmm more adapters reduces the bandwidth available - it's like using wireless repeaters.

 

Some of the benefits of unifi adapters over buying powerful wi-fi routers:

 

- each AP has its own wi-fi channel, so there's no loss of bandwidth like with google home/eero/lumia etc that just repeat the signal effectively halving bandwidth with each hop.  In a large home one AP will never be enough, and even if it were - the radios on the devices will be too weak to 'talk back' at a fast rate, meaning the overall network slows down

- access to additional DFS wi-fi channels so no congestion e.g. in the UK consumer routers don't support DFS channels (52-140) and only 36-48 are available, because of the problems with having to check military, ATC etc aren't using and potential disconnects (imagine ISP call centres with people calling to say wifi keeps going off...).  As a result I have my APs on channels 58 & 122 all to by myself and if they do detect issues (once a week or so), the controller moves straight away to another channel

- kickass wi-fi including the ability to boost/decrease broadcast dBM as required

 

[DoeBoye]

Though I'm hearing a lot of voices speaking up for wifi, I've never found wifi to be as fast or as stable as Powerline Ethernet or MoCA (Even though on paper, it seems to claim the opposite). Now I've never used UniFi equipment, so I can't speak to that, but given the choice, I would take a wired solution like MoCA or EoP over wifi. Even the best wifi equipment is still going to be subject to potential interference from other wifi networks in the neighbourhood.

 

Not to say I'm against wifi! In fact, I'm using MoCA to get the signal upstairs, and then I'm using a wireless router as an AP. My Kodi box is hardwired into the router, and any mobile device upstairs connects to the wireless signal from that router to give me a solid connection on the 2nd floor (My main router lives in the basement, and the signal upstairs is less than adequate).

 

That said, speaking as the MoCA advocate in this thread , there may not be a cable outlet available near the endpoint and all my rantings may serve no purpose... .

[Hoopster]

20 minutes ago, DoeBoye said:

Though I'm hearing a lot of voices speaking up for wifi, I've never found wifi to be as fast or as stable as Powerline Ethernet or MoCA

 

I would also never argue that WiFi is better than a wired connection.  I have wired everything I possibly can.  WiFi or powerline adpaters for some are the only alternatives.  In my case, having used both, I found UniFi WiFi to give me better throughput than my powerline adapters.  This could simply be because my in-wall power cabling is deficient in my 30-year-old home and, were it better, the powerline adapters would kick WiFi's butt.    My solution to the problem was to hardwire everything I could with Ethernet and use WiFi only for things for which it is the only option; e.g laptops, tablets, phones.  The OP, apparently, does not have that option.

 

If you can't run additional cables, I think it is far more likely that a power outlet is going to be where you need it than a coax connection. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Hoopster

[DoeBoye]

12 minutes ago, Hoopster said:

If you can't run additional cables, I think it is far more likely that a power outlet is going to be where you need it than a coax connection. 

Agreed. Absolutely! There's no question that EoP is way more versatile. Until I came across MoCA, I used EoP for my bedroom media player, and it worked fairly well. It really depends on the OPs home and the location of the coax drops in relation to his media players and router.

 

In my situation, MoCA worked very well. Internet comes in the basement. My main router lives beside the modem, as well as my UnRaid server. I've wired the basement, second, and third floor with cat6a, but have the one dead spot in the master bedroom where running ethernet would have proven to be difficult. I have a coax connection in the basement by the router, and have one in the master bedroom, right behind where my tv lives. I have a second router fed by the MoCa connection in the bedroom that provides a hard wired connection to the media player, while also providing a strong wireless signal for the top floor for mobile devices.

[tdallen]

1 hour ago, djglenn said:

I have a wireless signal all through my house, but I found when trying to stream a 1080p video from a central source (Main PC) to a TV via an Android box etc, then it kept buffering every 5s.

You're receiving lots of good advice regarding both wired and wireless options, and I don't want to be redundant.  But I'll mention this - you may have a wifi signal throughout your house but it doesn't sound like you have a *good* wifi signal throughout your house.  If you want to go further, wifi is more than capable of supporting 1080p video with better results than you are getting.  Mind you, ethernet is always better.  The results with Ethernet over powerline or MOCA are mixed - they can be lots better than wifi, but not always - it depends on the wiring infrastructure in your home.  But it sounds like your current wifi results are poor, and they can probably be improved.  If you want to build a good wifi network it can help to run a little bit of wire, though.

[SSD]

If you have wall board and not plaster, I would at least price running Ethernet to a few locations in your house. It may not be as expensive as you think. If you can get it into the attic, it can be pretty easy to drop it into rooms. I have run wires from my study into an unfinished basement, and from an upstairs bedroom into my attic by myself. Just takes a drill, fishtape, and a big drill bit (maybe an extra long one depending). Also might need a drywall saw and a few cover plates. A friend helps too, especially if he brings the beer. Most expensive part is the shopping trip for your wife to get her out of the house. Run HDMI2 and a USB extender and you'll be all set for 4k.

 

Seriously, if it was beyond my skills as to how to go about it, I'd get a professional to give me a price and ask lots of questions about what he would do. Then decide if you can do it yourself. Or if he could do X and Y, you could do the rest. Or just let him do the whole thing. If you're willing to invest in powerline adapters, coax adapters, wireless adapters, your going to spend some dough, at least know what it would take to do it right! Might be worth it in the long run (no pun intended )

[Frank1940]

On 2/19/2018 at 3:30 AM, djglenn said:

Unfortunately I live in a 3 story house, and full hard cabled Ethernet is not an option (wife will kill me), so have ended up going with Power over Ethernet sockets as found wifi unable to stream 1080p+ content reliably.

 

If this ever becomes an problem or issue and you have a house with central forced air heating and/or cooling, have a look at using the cold air returns to run cat5E/6 cables from floor to floor.  I have done this in several houses and it works well.  In my current house, I have also installed switches on each floor and switches in the media areas (Everything seems to want an Internet connection these days) to eliminate multiple long runs of cable.  (You should probably use plenum rated cables for interior wall runs to meet code.)

[DoeBoye]

1 hour ago, Frank1940 said:

(You should probably use plenum rated cables for interior wall runs to meet code.)

+1 - If you go this route, check out ebay. There's some good deals occasionally on plenum rated ethernet that I assume is left-overs from commercial sites. I picked up some plenum rated cat6a a few years ago for quite a bit cheaper than buying from a traditional retailer.

[HellDiverUK]

Wifi, if you're using decent hardware at both ends, and have sufficient access points for the area and construction of your house, is perfectly fine.  As good as ethernet.

 

If you're expecting good performance from an elcheapo 2.4GHz 802.11n router, or a shitty USB wifi adapter, then you're going to be unsurprisingly annoyed by your experience.

 

With a decent Asus router (RT-AC86U) and the Intel 8265 wifi chip in my laptop, I get great signal everywhere in my house, and where I mostly use the laptop I'm seeing 60-70MB (yes, megabytes) transfer speeds to my unRAID box while the laptop is doing it's backup using Veeam.

 

I'd rank decent wifi more reliable than powerline. MoCA isn't really a thing in the UK as our houses don't generally have the coax in the walls, as few places have cable TV - only really some large cities, and even then very few houses are wired for cable.

[djglenn]

Wow!

 

I am really blown away by the quality advise being given and areas in which I have never considered when looking at a home network setup.

 

Sorry for the delay my side but was traveling extensively with work and only coming back into "the real world" now.

 

I couple more questions based on the above..

 

Looking at a Unifi setup... The modem/router I have is the latest from the ISP (Sky) however they are very difficult about allowing 3rd party Ives being used in their place. Appreciate Unifi would just plug straight into it and provide WiFi but it's the quality jeapordised because of the non enterprise router (within the home network)?

 

Also on a receiving end, for my to be unraid board does not have WiFi, so what is the best solution to receive the data as someone mentioned that a usb dongle is not good. PCIE adapter?

[Hoopster]

1 hour ago, djglenn said:

Looking at a Unifi setup... The modem/router I have is the latest from the ISP (Sky) however they are very difficult about allowing 3rd party Ives being used in their place. Appreciate Unifi would just plug straight into it and provide WiFi but it's the quality jeapordised because of the non enterprise router (within the home network)?

 

Ubiquiti UniFi APs do work with non-UniFi switches and routers.  Even if you do not have a totally UniFi networking infrastructure, you will get improved WiFi performance from the UniFi APs. Of course, the maximum throughput will be determined by the connection speed provided through your router.   Overall network speeds improved noticeably when I replaced my consumer router with the Ubiquity USG; however, WiFi speeds are usually greatly improved with the UniFI APs regardless of the router.   Fortunately, there is a UniFi Controller docker for unRAID from which you can manage your APs  even if they are not connected to a UniFi switch. 

 

 

1 hour ago, djglenn said:

Also on a receiving end, for my to be unraid board does not have WiFi, so what is the best solution to receive the data as someone mentioned that a usb dongle is not good. PCIE adapter?

 

You don't want WiFi on your server as the method for connecting to the network.  In fact, unRAID wants an Ethernet connection and does not directly support WiFi.  See this recent discussion on the topic:

 

 

If your rmotherboard does not have a built-in NIC, a good PCIe card with an Intel NIC can be used (avoid Realtek if possible as some users have had issues with Realtek NICs).  If you can't run an Ethernet cable from your switch to the unRAID server location, your powerline adapter should work OK depending on how good your in-wall wiring is.