External Backup


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I am about to purchase one of these for external back up:

 

https://www.startech.com/uk/HDD/Enclosures/4-Bay-Rackmount-Enclosure-for-SATA-SAS-HDDs~SAT35401U

 

This will be filled with 4 x 6TB hardrives and I will hopefully use crashplan (unless anyone recommends anything else) to backup my unraid server fully.

 

I have an Asrock EP2C602-4L/D16 motherboard, but am currently using all the sata connections for all the hard drives in the unraid array, and am left with 4 x SCU ports which I understand I can use as normal SATA ports (although the controller is a Marvell?)

 

So, to connect the above JBOD device to the 4 SCU ports on the mother board, I am contemplating on using one of these (spare port just in case I purchase another external enclosure in the future):

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B06ZZDLJH6/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_3?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1E5DJ3G6SIEDV

 

I will then use a Mini SAS SFF-8088 SAS cable between the Dual Port adapter and the external enclosure, that bit I get. The bit I'm stuck on is which SAS 36Pin SFF-8087 cable I need to connect the Dual Port adapter to the 4 x SCU ports on the motherboard. Is it a forward or reverse cable I need? In the back of my mind it is a reverse cable I need, but I just wanted to check before I went ahead and made the purchase.

 

Cheers

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The EP2C602-4L/D16 has 3 HDD controllers.  1 6 port Intel.  1 4 port SCU Intel.  and 1 Marvel 9230.  When I used the Marvel 9230 ports on my 4L/D16 I got controller failures every few weeks at random intervals.  It would go two months some times to less than a week other times.  That is one of the reasons Marvel controllers are not recommended with v6 unRAID.  For me I wasn't using them with array drives.  I had passed the controller through to a VM so didn't cause me any problems in unRAID except for one.  I had to reboot the WHOLE PC to get them back so was continually rebooting my unRAID server which annoyed me once too often.  I then passed the 4 port Intel controller to that VM and haven't had to reboot the PC for dropped drives/controller since then.

 

So long story short.  I would turn OFF the Marvel controller in the bios if you are using it with unRAID and use the 4 port Intel for this. 

 

That of course means you can only use 6 MB ports with unRAID if you do so you may need an HBA to supplement.  That's what I did.  I got a 9201-16i when my 8i became insufficient for my drive connection needs.  Gave me an extra 4 ports as spares - for a while.

Edited by BobPhoenix
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You have confirmed my suspicions about the Marvel controller so I will look at the HBA route instead. I currently have a brand new IBM M1015 HBA that hasn't been flashed to IT mode yet and is still in its packaging. However, the intention for this card was to give me an extra 8 ports (i have a 16 bay server case with eight of the bays already filled). With what you have written in mind, I could go one of three routes from here:

 

1) Purchase a second IBM M1015 card

 

2) Purchase an expander to run along side the existing M1015 I already have, something like the IBM-46M0997 expander card, then purchasing the external SAS adapter as in my OP

 

3) Find a SAS card that has 8 internal ports and 8 external ports. I had a look last night for one of these, but they seem to be rare although I did come across a couple, they were just so expensive

 

If the IBM-46M0997 expander card is compatible then I think this would be the route I would take, unless someone comes up with a reason not to go for it? At least this negates the problem of which cable to go for as it would just be a simple SAS to SAS cable required.

 

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Oh hang on a mo. If I go the expander route, I have just come across this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-24-Bay-SAS-Expender-Expander-Card-487738-001-468405-001-External-Internal/222966046815?epid=19014650362&hash=item33e9cfe05f:g:FhoAAOSwA4Va4jvl

 

Anybody know if this will work with unraid as it has both internal and external connections and would be ideal in my situation.

 

Edit: Apart from of course the 2TB limit for the hard drives, grrrrrrr!

 

I may well go the purchasing a 2nd M1015 route as I know this works and they can still be had quite cheaply.

Edited by apefray
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50 minutes ago, apefray said:

Anybody know if this will work with unraid as it has both internal and external connections and would be ideal in my situation.

Yes.

 

50 minutes ago, apefray said:

Edit: Apart from of course the 2TB limit for the hard drives, grrrrrrr!

There's no 2TB limit.

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Oh, thanks Johnnie.

 

I was reading the specs on the HP website and it mentioned (whoops 1TB not 2TB):

 

Capacity
Given the increasing need for high performance and rapid capacity expansion, the SAS Expander Cardand the SA-P410 or SAP410i Controller offers:
  • Up to 14TB of total storage with 14 x 1TB 3.5-inch SATA MDL HDD

  • Up to of 7.2TB total storage with 24 x 300GB 3G SAS 10K SFF DP ENT HDD

 

 

Does the card work straight from the box, or do I need to fiddle with it like I need to with the M1015 to get it in IT mode?

 

Edit: Do you know if this card is SAS v1 or SAS v2? I will only ever use hard drives with the M1015 and the expander card, using the onboard SATA connections for SSD.

Edited by apefray
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9 minutes ago, apefray said:

Does the card work straight from the box

Yes.

 

9 minutes ago, apefray said:

Do you know if this card is SAS v1 or SAS v2

It's SAS2 but unlike most SAS2 expanders it's SATA2 max, not SATA3 (and it requires a certain firmware, IIRC 1.80+), so half the total bandwidth of a SATA3 expander, 1100MB/s for single link, twice that for dual link.

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Silly question time, more curious than anything else, but you mention you are running 9 internal and 5 external, yet the expander card only has 1 external output. Having read time and time again that 1 SAS port = 4 SATA connections, how are you running 5 external disk from the 1 port?

 

As mentioned in my Op, I am contemplating purchasing a Startech SAT35401U, which has a SAS port but may eventually purchase a 2nd one for backup purposes and am intrigued into your 5 disk external setup hence the reason for wanting two external SAS ports. However that can wait for now as the 1 Startech unit will be enough for a couple of years for backup.

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Question for both Bob and Johnnie regarding the Asrock ASRock - EP2C602-4L/D16.

 

Both of you have mentioned not to use the Marvell controller, which I understand due to the issues experienced with unraid. Now, un-be known to me, I thought the 4 blue SCU ports were what we were talking about, but I have just looked at the manual and there seems to be some confusion over the SATA ports.

 

On the website it shows this:

 

Storage
SATA Controller - Intel® C602 : 2 x SATA3 6.0 Gb/s, 8 x SATA2 3.0 Gb/s, support RAID 0, 1, 5, 10 and Intel® Rapid Storage 3.0, NCQ, AHCI and "Hot Plug" functions
Additional Storage Controller - Marvell SE9230: 4 x SATA3 6.0 Gb/s, support RAID 0, 1, 10, NCQ, AHCI and "Hot Plug" functions

 

But there is a discrepancy in the manual itself:

 

image.png.3ba10e85420e85787e16ed4084e14cd3.png

image.png.ccc53a8c7c932dd18c0a1acc16f5ba19.png

 

I know that ports 34 - 37 are the ones to be avoided as they are the Marvell Controller, but its ports 18 - 21 that are confusing me. If you look at the above description from the website, it mentions 2 x SATA3 and 8 X SATA2, yet the above image quite clearly states ports 18 - 23 are SATA3. I understand ports 22 and 23 are controlled by the Intel chipset and are indeed SATA3, but ports 18 - 21????? This then got me thinking, if Asrock can't get there descriptions right, then are ports 18 - 21 also running on a Marvell controller? If so, then I have ports 18 - 28 filled at present and it doesn't seem to have caused me an issue. I have been running unraid for over a year now and use it with the Emby docker as a media server.

 

I then had the idea to check what negotiated speed all my drives were showing in unraid:

 

Parity Drive:  SATA 3.1, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 6.0 Gb/s)

Disk 1: SATA 3.1, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 6.0 Gb/s)

Disk 2: SATA 3.1, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 6.0 Gb/s)

Disk 3: SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 3.0 Gb/s)

Disk 4: SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 3.0 Gb/s)

Disk 5: SATA 3.1, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 6.0 Gb/s)

Cache: SATA 3.1, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 6.0 Gb/s)

Unassigned Disk: SATA 3.0, 6.0 Gb/s (current: 3.0 Gb/s)

 

Unfortunatley, without removing the case from the rack and opening it up, I can't tell exactly which disk is connected to which port, but it appears I have opposite to what is described on the website, but is correct according to the manual, but I'm still none the wiser as to whether ports 18 - 21 are running on a Marvell chipset and if they are, have I just been lucky in that I haven't had any problems so far?

 

As we have talking about above, I am going to get the HP SAS Expander, but I will also utilise a couple of the SATA ports on the motherboard, primarily for the unassigned/cache disks. The unassigned disk will be HDD so either SATA port is fine, but the Cache disks will need to use SATA3 ports as they are SSD's so its' important to know which port is which, but the details Asrock have posted aren't helping in this sense :(

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Here you go, I assume I have done this right?

 

I have to admit that you saying ports 18 - 21 are the marvell controlled ones is a bit worrying, as they are the ports I am currently using and have been for the past year without issue. The only ones I am not using are the 4 blue SCU ports 34 - 37, which I thought were the marvell controlled ports?

 

image.thumb.png.02b1ee1c7e4b818755906796d3ef6c95.png

tower-diagnostics-20180513-1548.zip

 

Although now you mention this, it makes perfect sense as the 4 Marvell ports will be SATA 3, hence why most of my hard drives are showing as a 6GB connection.

Edited by apefray
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There are a number of things that are somewhat confusing on the 4L/D16 board one of them is the Marvel ports the other is the dedicated IPMI lan port.

 

Marvel SATA ports:

657656004_MarvelportlocationonMB.png.0fa6befdf2d8450111cdb292f31447d3.png

 

IPMI dedicated lan port:

876716892_DedicatedIPMIport.png.0aaf8fd48a48a7131fc832f34d7e7edf.png

 

I would have though that #3 above would be the IPMI port - seems more logical to me.  Just like the SCU ports not being the marvel controller.  But that makes a little more since since there are circuit traces on the MB for an addition 4 port to bring the SCU ports up to 8 if they were attached.

 

 

Edited by BobPhoenix
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Yep, I agree, some oddities on this board, lol!

 

At least I managed to work out the IPMI port, eventually.

 

So, I should probably move the 4 Marvell Sata connections to the SCU ports instead? I believe they are SATA3 so will accommodate 2 x Cache SSD's (SAMSUNG EVO 500gb) and 2 x Parity HDD's (WD-Red Pro), then use ports 22 & 23 for the unassigned drives (these could either be HDD or SSD) and ports 24 - 28 as part of the unraid array (mixture of different size WD-Reds)??

 

Then when the expander arrives, I sha'll use the IBM M1015 along with the expander for the external backup solution, then use another 8 ports from the expander for the remaining 8 disks in the unraid array (again a mixture of different size WD-Reds) as I have a 16 bay server case.

 

Or would you do it a different way?

Edited by apefray
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I would put the SSDs on the two white ports closest to the blue ones they are Intel.  Only the 4 white port at the end farthest away from the blue ones are Marvel.   Those 2 white ports are Sata3 like the Marvel ones.  Your HDDs will not need Sata3.  It's only recently that HDDs (spinners) have been able to approach the Sata2 speeds.  Basically the blue ports are all Sata2 speed on the MB. @johnnie.black could tell you about SSDs and the IBM M1015 for sure.  But I believe the M1015 does NOT support the trim operation on SSDs on many/most SSDs.  Enterprise level SSDs are most likely to support the operations needed for TRIM on an M1015.

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Yep, I realised my mistake after making that post. The 2 SSD's on the 2 Intel SATA3 ports, use the 4 SCU SATA2 ports for the 2 Parity drives and 2 unassigned drives. Then use the 4 Intel ports for 4 of the drives for the unraid array, then use 8 ports of the expander for the 8 drives in the unraid array and the external port for the Startech external backup.

 

I think I have finally got there :)

 

Just curious again, but I read somewhere that the M1015 can utilise up to 16 HDD's, so does this mean that when I use the expander I shouldn't go above the 16 drive limit seeing as the xpander can handle 24 HDD's?

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18 minutes ago, apefray said:

Just curious again, but I read somewhere that the M1015 can utilise up to 16 HDD's, so does this mean that when I use the expander I shouldn't go above the 16 drive limit seeing as the xpander can handle 24 HDD's?

No such limit when crossflashed to LSI IT mode, LSI firmware limit is 256 non raid devices.

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The limit in RAID mode is that the RAID controller needs to compute what content should be sent to all the individual drives of the RAID. So it must reserve RAM and computation power for the full RAID stripe.

 

When in IT mode, the RAID controller doesn't need to compute any information at all - it's enough for it to remember the full list of addresses of the connected disks.

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