New to Unraid, need few help with cache and drives

[sonuyos]

Hello,

 

I am very new to unraid and going through the forum i am quite overwhelmed with drives recommendations.

 

I need help.

 

Currently i have

 

1 x 1TB NVME 970 Evo

1 x 250gb SSD 850 EVO

1 x 1TB Internal from WD (On verge of failing).

1 x 1.5TB External from Seagate.

 

I am planning to setup my Unraid server and need some suggestion.

 

I am thinking to buy 3 x 4TB HDD (1 in parity and 2 in running) and 1 Cache drive.

 

Will run my Windows off from 250gb 850 Evo and 1TB NVME.

 

And rest all in Unraid and cache.

 

Will there be any problem?

 

Also please help me with drive recommendation.

 

Right now I am thinking ti get Firecuda 4TB as it's faster. WD red is also an option but really leaning towards the aforementioned one.

 

Also how much cache should I get and SSD or NVME? Any recommendations?

 

My main use is backing up my PC (time machine backup type), my phone's and using it as home automation and Plex server.,

 

[testdasi]

1 hour ago, sonuyos said:

Currently i have

 

1 x 1TB NVME 970 Evo

1 x 250gb SSD 850 EVO

1 x 1TB Internal from WD (On verge of failing).

1 x 1.5TB External from Seagate.

 

I am thinking to buy 3 x 4TB HDD (1 in parity and 2 in running) and 1 Cache drive.

 

Will run my Windows off from 250gb 850 Evo and 1TB NVME.

 

Right now I am thinking ti get Firecuda 4TB as it's faster. WD red is also an option but really leaning towards the aforementioned one.

 

Also how much cache should I get and SSD or NVME? Any recommendations?

 

My main use is backing up my PC (time machine backup type), my phone's and using it as home automation and Plex server.,

 

Are you planning to run Windows VM or Windows barebone (i.e. dual-booting i.e. EITHER Win or Unraid at any time)?

 

If you are running Windows VM, then you can use the 250GB SSD as cache and pass through the NVMe as a PCIe device (i.e. similar to passing through a GPU) for best performance.

Save you having to buy another drive for cache and the 250GB is better off used for Unraid purposes (e.g. appdata, docker, libvirt, temp storage etc.). For most users with modern HDDs, there's really no need for a cache drive to enhance write speed (e.g. you can use reconstruct drive aka "Turbo Write" to write to you array at close to the max write speed of your HDDs).

IF you still want to buy another SSD for cache then get SATA unless you are out of SATA ports (obviously). Outside of extremely niche uses (e.g. massive db webserver), I have not seen any perceivable diff between SATA and NVMe for Unraid cache.

 

In terms of HDD choices, buy the cheapest you can get from a reputable dealer who are familiar with shipping HDDs (e.g. Amazon is a reputable dealer BUT they are NOT familiar with shipping HDDs e.g. they sent me a HDD in a cardboard envelope without padding recently). Brands / models don't matter with consumer home uses.

To use as backup server, 7200rpm is only necessary if you have a ton of tiny files. 5400rpm is generally good enough (and will be less noisy and should consume a tiny bit less power).

 

Also, you are better off getting 2x8TB instead of 3x4TB. (a) fewer points of failure, (b) based on Backblaze data, newer large capacity drives e.g. 8TB+ seem to have better reliability than old low-capacity drives and (c) relatively easier future expansion of the array.

Edited January 7, 2020 by testdasi

[sonuyos]

Just now, testdasi said:

Are you planning to run Windows VM or Windows barebone (i.e. dual-booting i.e. EITHER Win or Unraid at any time)?

 

If you are running Windows VM, then you can use the 250GB SSD as cache and pass through the NVMe as a PCIe device (i.e. similar to passing through a GPU) for best performance.

Save you having to buy another drive for cache and the 250GB is better off used for Unraid purposes (e.g. appdata, docker, libvirt, temp storage etc.). For most users with modern HDDs, there's really no need for a cache drive to enhance write speed (e.g. you can use reconstruct drive aka "Turbo Write" to write to you array at close to the max write speed of your HDDs).

IF you still want to buy another SSD for cache then get SATA unless you are out of SATA ports (obviously). Outside of extremely niche uses (e.g. massive db webserver), I have not seen any perceivable diff between SATA and NVMe for Unraid cache.

 

In terms of HDD choices, buy the cheapest you can get from a reputable dealer who are familiar with shipping HDDs (e.g. Amazon is a reputable dealer BUT they are NOT familiar with shipping HDDs e.g. they sent me a HDD in a cardboard envelope without padding recently). Brands / models don't matter with consumer home uses.

To use as backup server, 7200rpm is only necessary if you have a ton of tiny files. 5400rpm is generally good enough (and will be less noisy and should consume a tiny bit less power).

 

Also, you are better off getting 2x8TB instead of 3x4TB. (a) fewer points of failure, (b) based on Backblaze data, newer large capacity drives e.g. 8TB+ seem to have better reliability than old low-capacity drives and (c) relatively easier future expansion of the array.

Hello,

 

Actually i am going with the third way, neither Complete VM nor Dual booting, what i did is bascially bypass my Windows Drive (250G SSD) and my NVME to VM, that way i didnt had to do anything, now even if i just restart my PC, it will boot into baremetal or in VM.

 

Will my 250GB SSD be enough for cache? I can move my Windows to NVME and survive off it for Windows?

 

I have 8 SATA PORTS and 2 m.2 slots, so adding more drives wouldnt be a problem. As of now only 2 Sata and 1 m.2 are full.

 

I am thinking to get this - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07H289S79/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1 they are having - "

Ships in Certified Frustration-Free Packaging".

 

Also the reason i am thjinking to go for 3x4TB is for Parity, 1 Drive would be in parity.

 

Or should i go for - https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-BarraCuda-Internal-Drive-3-5-Inch/dp/B07H289S7C/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=8TB+NAS+ironwolf&qid=1578391885&sr=8-5

 

As for the backup, i still havnt decided, but i am looking forward to backup my whole windows drive every alternate day with 10 days backup retainable, so about say 500gb would be used for backup of windows drive. It will include multiple big and small files. Unless there is a better way to do it, this is the route i will take. As i said am very new to this.

[testdasi]

2 minutes ago, sonuyos said:

Actually i am going with the third way, neither Complete VM nor Dual booting, what i did is bascially bypass my Windows Drive (250G SSD) and my NVME to VM, that way i didnt had to do anything, now even if i just restart my PC, it will boot into baremetal or in VM.

 

Will my 250GB SSD be enough for cache? I can move my Windows to NVME and survive off it for Windows?

 

I have 8 SATA PORTS and 2 m.2 slots, so adding more drives wouldnt be a problem. As of now only 2 Sata and 1 m.2 are full.

 

"Ships in Certified Frustration-Free Packaging".

 

Also the reason i am thjinking to go for 3x4TB is for Parity, 1 Drive would be in parity.

 

Or should i go for - https://www.amazon.com/Seagate-BarraCuda-Internal-Drive-3-5-Inch/dp/B07H289S7C/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=8TB+NAS+ironwolf&qid=1578391885&sr=8-5

 

As for the backup, i still havnt decided, but i am looking forward to backup my whole windows drive every alternate day with 10 days backup retainable, so about say 500gb would be used for backup of windows drive. It will include multiple big and small files. Unless there is a better way to do it, this is the route i will take. As i said am very new to this.

From what you have described so far, you have 2 set of uses:

1. "backing up my PC (time machine backup type), my phone's and using it as home automation and Plex server." <-- this is typically done by Unraid
2. Windows PC <-- obviously Windows

So for your normal uses, are you looking to do BOTH (1) and (2) at the same time? e.g. will you be working on a Word doc on your Windows PC while another member of the household watches a movie via Plex?

 

If the answer is "yes" then you will be looking to run Windows as a VM and your hardware will have to support virtualisation for it to work (i.e. you might want to clarify what other hardware you have before proceeding).

If the answer is "no" then you can choose between dual boot (dual boot = booting either Win OR Unraid any one time - yes confusing terms) or use VM.

What you have described in your reply is a dual boot AND VM scenario which is OK. Just be mindful that repeated booting between VM and baremetal MAY cause Windows to ask you to reactivate.

 

It's hard to say if x GB is enough for cache without knowing what exactly will be stored on the cache. 250GB is generally sufficient as cache if all you do is docker, appdata, libvirt and light write activities. If you are downing multiple 50GB+ Linux iso's simultaneously then obviously 250GB isn't enough.

For Windows, 1TB NVMe is generally enough for most uses. Ask yourself if you actually need 1.25TB instead of 1TB?

 

"Certified Frustration-Free Packaging" = cardboard envelope. Padding is entirely optional.

 

You don't need 3 drives to have a parity. You have 2 drives with 1 parity and 1 data.

[sonuyos]

1 minute ago, testdasi said:

From what you have described so far, you have 2 set of uses:

1. "backing up my PC (time machine backup type), my phone's and using it as home automation and Plex server." <-- this is typically done by Unraid
2. Windows PC <-- obviously Windows

So for your normal uses, are you looking to do BOTH (1) and (2) at the same time? e.g. will you be working on a Word doc on your Windows PC while another member of the household watches a movie via Plex?

 

If the answer is "yes" then you will be looking to run Windows as a VM and your hardware will have to support virtualisation for it to work (i.e. you might want to clarify what other hardware you have before proceeding).

If the answer is "no" then you can choose between dual boot (dual boot = booting either Win OR Unraid any one time - yes confusing terms) or use VM.

What you have described in your reply is a dual boot AND VM scenario which is OK. Just be mindful that repeated booting between VM and baremetal MAY cause Windows to ask you to reactivate.

 

It's hard to say if x GB is enough for cache without knowing what exactly will be stored on the cache. 250GB is generally sufficient as cache if all you do is docker, appdata, libvirt and light write activities. If you are downing multiple 50GB+ Linux iso's simultaneously then obviously 250GB isn't enough.

For Windows, 1TB NVMe is generally enough for most uses. Ask yourself if you actually need 1.25TB instead of 1TB?

 

"Certified Frustration-Free Packaging" = cardboard envelope. Padding is entirely optional.

 

You don't need 3 drives to have a parity. You have 2 drives with 1 parity and 1 data.

Actually I have already setup scenario 1, j am running my windows in vm with nvme and HDD pass through.

 

My windows is mainly for work (Chrome, fuck ton of chrome) and gaming.

 

1TB nvme would suffice, theoretically. I wonder if I can play games from Unraid array, even if I do, wouldn't it be bottleneck at 100mb/s due to hdd speed? Or will it load the game I am playing on cache?

 

My main use for NAS is backups and Plex and maybe openvpn and such, basically nothing to do with big files that aren't media.

 

1TB of nvme would suffice tbh, but I would strongly prefer to keep my windows separately, right now I am using 1038gb/1163gb of SSD and NVME.

 

Most of it is game,

[testdasi]

1 minute ago, sonuyos said:

1TB nvme would suffice, theoretically. I wonder if I can play games from Unraid array, even if I do, wouldn't it be bottleneck at 100mb/s due to hdd speed? Or will it load the game I am playing on cache?

 

My main use for NAS is backups and Plex and maybe openvpn and such, basically nothing to do with big files that aren't media.

 

1TB of nvme would suffice tbh, but I would strongly prefer to keep my windows separately, right now I am using 1038gb/1163gb of SSD and NVME.

 

Most of it is game,

If you are planning to run game out of the array then you probably will benefit from 7200rpm drives (but only a bit).

100MB/s bottleneck is only if you access the array through gigabit network. Your virtio network card in your VM runs at 10Gbps which maxes out at 1.25GB/s so you will not be gigabit-limited.

Of course there is network latency but that would usually only be a big problem with games that have zillion tiny files (unlikely with modern titles).

 

There is a guide by SpaceInvaderOne on how to set up a hybrid cache + array storage for games. In that case then you will benefit from a large (e.g. 1TB+) SATA SSD for cache.

Take note though that certain game services do NOT allow you to move game storage to a network drive (I think Blizzard is one).

In that case, you will need to create a vdisk file, which make things rather complicated albeit doable.

[sonuyos]

19 minutes ago, testdasi said:

If you are planning to run game out of the array then you probably will benefit from 7200rpm drives (but only a bit).

100MB/s bottleneck is only if you access the array through gigabit network. Your virtio network card in your VM runs at 10Gbps which maxes out at 1.25GB/s so you will not be gigabit-limited.

Of course there is network latency but that would usually only be a big problem with games that have zillion tiny files (unlikely with modern titles).

 

There is a guide by SpaceInvaderOne on how to set up a hybrid cache + array storage for games. In that case then you will benefit from a large (e.g. 1TB+) SATA SSD for cache.

Take note though that certain game services do NOT allow you to move game storage to a network drive (I think Blizzard is one).

In that case, you will need to create a vdisk file, which make things rather complicated albeit doable.

Hmm, I am still not sure what my plan of action should be. I mean running games natively should be ideal, so 1.25tb (nvme and ssd for Windows) and then rest on array with 1 250gb ssd for cache.

 

Or should I rather do this, get a 2TB nvme for Windows, and rest all goes to cache and array,

[testdasi]

4 minutes ago, sonuyos said:

Hmm, I am still not sure what my plan of action should be. I mean running games natively should be ideal, so 1.25tb (nvme and ssd for Windows) and then rest on array with 1 250gb ssd for cache.

 

Or should I rather do this, get a 2TB nvme for Windows, and rest all goes to cache and array,

Option A is cheaper.

 

Option B is theoretically faster (but not perceivable in practice) and is better if you have games that don't support network storage.

(note you won't be able to run 250GB + 1TB in cache. You should use the existing 1TB in cache and mount the 250GB as unassigned e.g. for temp download spaces).

[sonuyos]

Let's say if I go with Option 1, can I change it to Option 2 in future?

 

Later when I get 2TB NVME.

[testdasi]

52 minutes ago, sonuyos said:

Let's say if I go with Option 1, can I change it to Option 2 in future?

 

Later when I get 2TB NVME.

Yes you can. I have changed my cache and Unassigned Devices config (e.g. VM-dedicated stuff) too many times to count.

[sonuyos]

Alright tell me thos, if I only get 4TB x 2 right now, 1 in parity and 1 is array, later can I add 1 more 4TB in array? Also can I later remove the parity and put a 8TB in parity?

[testdasi]

15 minutes ago, sonuyos said:

Alright tell me thos, if I only get 4TB x 2 right now, 1 in parity and 1 is array, later can I add 1 more 4TB in array? Also can I later remove the parity and put a 8TB in parity?

Yes and yes.

[sonuyos]

Alright, i think for now i will go with either 3 - 4TBs or 2 4TBs and upgrade as i go. Thanks a lot.

 

I will move my SSD to cache, as i dont think i will see much performance diff between ssd and nvme.

 

As for my main PC, i will keep my 1 TB NVME on it and probably my external, not sure about that for now.