Best way to connect multiple switches?


jebusfreek666

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I have purchased 3 separate switches. 2 of them are 24 port managed switches.  The third is a 24 port managed POE+ switch. I have a 2 story house with a basement. Right now I am flipping back and forth between installing all the networking equipment in the basement or in a small closet off my bedroom on the first floor. It is kind of a trade off of convenience vs noise. But whichever way I do and up going, I have decided to break it up like this:

 

Switch 1: 24 port A --> Covers all floor 1 jacks

Switch 2: 24 port B --> Covers all floor 2 jacks

Switch 3: 24 port POE+ --> Currently only for IP cams, wired AiMesh (asus routers) for wifi coverage, possibly convert to access points down the line.

 

Here are my questions, what is the best way to connect these together?

 

Do I connect switch 1, 2, and 3 all individually to ports on my router?

Do I connect switch 3 to my router, then switch 1 and 2 to switch 3?

Does any of this matter?

Is it better to have all the equipment in one place? What I mean is, since switch 1 will cover floor 1, and switch 2 will cover floor 2, is it better to have both switches in one place and run longer cables or have switch 2 on floor 2 with shorter cabling between the switch and jacks? This would then only have one longer cable feeding the switch instead of 24 longer cables. Not sure if this would negatively affect bandwidth or not? Seems like it would with only one long feeding cable, but I guess it would be no different than multiple longer cables?

 

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I would approach things a bit differently.

 

Terminate all runs to a single location. The only exception to that would be if you have a house so freakin big that some of the runs would exceed 100 meters. If that's the case, this is the wrong place to discuss your network layout seriously, since you should have a network engineer on your payroll anyway.

 

To determine which jack plugs in where, I'd try to determine traffic patterns, and keep all the significant bandwidth on a single switch. The goal being that as little as possible has to flow between switches. WAN traffic tends to be more limited than LAN traffic, so connect the router to the switch with the majority of the WAN traffic. Depends on your router and how powerful it is as to whether to daisy chain the switches or hub and spoke from the router.

 

I'm assuming that you don't actually have 80+ wired network devices, and are simply ensuring that all jacks are live if needed. If that's the case, and you have 2 jacks per wallplate in many locations, then I'd make sure that the 2 jacks go to different switches so you have an easy troubleshooting step of changing jacks if needed. I'm also assuming the POE jacks are peppered about the house, so that switch needs runs all over anyway.

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Pretty much all of your assumptions are spot on.

 

11 hours ago, jonathanm said:

To determine which jack plugs in where, I'd try to determine traffic patterns, and keep all the significant bandwidth on a single switch. The goal being that as little as possible has to flow between switches. WAN traffic tends to be more limited than LAN traffic, so connect the router to the switch with the majority of the WAN traffic. Depends on your router and how powerful it is as to whether to daisy chain the switches or hub and spoke from the router.

 

Not sure what I should be looking for to determine if my router is powerful enough? I currently have an Asus RT-AC86U. 

 

I am building this network from scratch, so determining traffic patterns is somewhat problematic. I do have an idea of what each area would be used for, but can't be 100% certain about all possible factors. The current idea is to have 4 jack wall plates in each of the bedrooms behind the TV areas, and to have an 8 port or 2x 4 port wall plates in the living room by the TV area. Then, also in the bedrooms, having 1-2 2 port wall plates in strategic places for occasional use. 

 

I am also planning a larger, probably 8 port wall plate in the dining room for "lan parties". But again, this will be occasional use only. There will also be a dedicated area for printers and other needed network devices. This will probably be a 4 port, but I don't expect large amounts of traffic. 

 

As for the POE side of it, you are correct that they will be peppered around. Some upstairs, some downstairs, some running to the exterior. Since these will be feeding cameras running 24/7, I can only assume that the largest amount of LAN traffic will be on the POE switch? The others jacks (mostly in the bedrooms in TV areas) are mostly media being served through plex via my server. But they will probably also be used for online gaming, so some WAN access too. 

 

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With a router like that, I'd only have a single feed from the router to one of the non-POE switches, and set up the switches to talk directly to each other. Research the specific models you are using to find the best configuration for that, you may be able to team several ports between them, or depending on the model they will have ports specifically set up for that purpose (stackable). I am using a GS728TX, with 2 of the 4 10G ports connected to my 2 servers.

 

Make sure all the media consumption outlets in use are on the same physical switch as your server(s), ideally your server would have a 10GB connection directly to one of the switches.

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I just realized, I answered the question you asked in the body of the message, and totally ignored the title. The best way to connect multiple switches is to be sure you get models that are meant to be connected and work with each other, the term you are looking for is stackable.

 

Since you said you already purchased the equipment that doesn't have that feature, then all the traffic that must traverse between the switches will be bottlenecked by the single 1GB connection. Not ideal, but since you don't actually have a need for all ports to be used at once, you can get around it by making sure all the needy equipment shares the same switch, and relegate the low priority stuff like printers and such to the low priority switch.

 

The good news is, if you wire all the jacks to the same closet, it's easy to patch what you need to whatever fits your purpose, and upgrading equipment shouldn't mean making sacrifices because of where you chose to terminate a specific wire.

 

Also, good call having multiple drops to the TV areas, it's really cool to do a multiple source HDMI / USB / IR multiplexer back in the server closet, it means you can plop down a powerful gaming system to any given TV and have the VM or physical tower in the server closet. If that's the case, half your drops may end up on a HDBaseT matrix instead of connected to your switches.

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4 hours ago, jonathanm said:

Since you said you already purchased the equipment that doesn't have that feature, then all the traffic that must traverse between the switches will be bottlenecked by the single 1GB connection. Not ideal, but since you don't actually have a need for all ports to be used at once, you can get around it by making sure all the needy equipment shares the same switch, and relegate the low priority stuff like printers and such to the low priority switch.

Sorry, completely new to networking, but wouldn't connecting them all individually to the router cut out some of this? That way the traffic wouldn't have to go from switch2---->Switch1------>router, cutting out the extra switch? I supposed I could still link the 2 switches to each other so if 2 devices needed to connect they could skip the router, but I think that is an issue (switch loop?) that is supposed to be avoided.

 

Also, wouldn't the cameras running 24H/Day all trying to feed through from one switch to a second switch to my server choke off everything else?

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Ok, so I had another thought. It will be more expensive, but what if I was to return these switches and instead got a GS752TX. It is a 52 port beast (48 data ports) with 2x 10G uplinks and 2x 10G SFP. It states it is stackable too, but I don't think that would be a concern anymore if I had all data ports on one switch, correct? This would just leave the POE switch to handle all of the cameras, and nothing else. Then the 48 port would be for all actual data ports in the house (media, printers, occasional use...). This would be a better setup correct?

 

Still, it nags at me to have all of the cameras on one switch fed back to the other switch via 1Gb line. Would this be ok?

 

Edit:

Also looking at swapping the POE switch with the GS728TPP. It has about double the power budget, so it could push more cameras more effectively. 

Edited by jebusfreek666
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4 hours ago, jebusfreek666 said:

Sorry, completely new to networking, but wouldn't connecting them all individually to the router cut out some of this? That way the traffic wouldn't have to go from switch2---->Switch1------>router, cutting out the extra switch? I supposed I could still link the 2 switches to each other so if 2 devices needed to connect they could skip the router, but I think that is an issue (switch loop?) that is supposed to be avoided.

 

Also, wouldn't the cameras running 24H/Day all trying to feed through from one switch to a second switch to my server choke off everything else?

Depends on where the bulk of the traffic is headed. If it's headed out the WAN port, then the router is the obvious choice to connect that specific switch. If it's staying local, then keeping it off the router is better. With the equipment you originally specced out, it really wouldn't make a whole lot of difference.

 

4 hours ago, jebusfreek666 said:

Ok, so I had another thought. It will be more expensive, but what if I was to return these switches and instead got a GS752TX. It is a 52 port beast (48 data ports) with 2x 10G uplinks and 2x 10G SFP. It states it is stackable too, but I don't think that would be a concern anymore if I had all data ports on one switch, correct? This would just leave the POE switch to handle all of the cameras, and nothing else. Then the 48 port would be for all actual data ports in the house (media, printers, occasional use...). This would be a better setup correct?

 

Still, it nags at me to have all of the cameras on one switch fed back to the other switch via 1Gb line. Would this be ok?

 

Edit:

Also looking at swapping the POE switch with the GS728TPP. It has about double the power budget, so it could push more cameras more effectively. 

This is the correct answer at this point in time for your layout IMHO. A single unit feeding all data lines, with uplink ports connecting to the POE branch.

 

Now all you need is a real router and some Unifi access points hanging off that POE switch along with your cameras and you have a small office capable network.

 

 

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1 hour ago, jonathanm said:

This is the correct answer at this point in time for your layout IMHO. A single unit feeding all data lines, with uplink ports connecting to the POE branch.

 

Excellent, Thank you so much! Just one more question (hopefully :) ) about the uplink ports and how to connect them. The main switch has 2 uplink 10G and 2 10G SFP which I believe can be used as uplink also. The POE switch has only 2 1G SFP ports. Would i connect both of the 1G ports to 2 of the 10G ports on the main switch? Wouldn't that be limited to just 1G? Should I instead be looking for a POE switch with 10G uplink ports? And the other 2 10G ports on the main switch I would then connect one to my server, and the other left open for adding another server or SAN/DAS at a later date? Again, thank you for all your help on this and many other questions I and other have submitted!

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17 minutes ago, jebusfreek666 said:

The POE switch has only 2 1G SFP ports. Would i connect both of the 1G ports to 2 of the 10G ports on the main switch? Wouldn't that be limited to just 1G? Should I instead be looking for a POE switch with 10G uplink ports?

Ideally yes, you want a POE with a couple 10G ports. When you start actually wiring things up, make sure there is only one port connected initially, as you don't want to form a network loop. However, with the switches you are looking at, I think they would actually detect an issue and down the extra ports until you configured them properly.

 

https://kb.netgear.com/000051185/What-are-link-aggregation-and-LACP-and-how-can-I-use-them-in-my-network

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Is 10G going to be useful to me? What I mean is, I am planning on adding a 10G NIC to my tower server. I would have both of my switches connected to eachother via 10G, which should make traffic flow better. But if my server is the only computer that has 10G and is used mostly for media, and it is only able to serve up files at the read speed of the disks, wouldn't 10G be overkill that would not truly be utilized? Or am I thinking of this wrong? I guess, if there were multiple files being read at the same time from different disks it may be helpful? But if not, I am guessing my speed would not really go up that much? 

 

 

Edited by jebusfreek666
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The link between switches is more important than the server link right now. As drive and media bitrate speeds increase in the future, the server link will become more utilized.

 

It's mostly future proofing, which is what I assumed the point is of having that many drops to begin with. The gamble is, spend the money now and hope the equipment lasts long enough to be fully utilized, or save a chunk now knowing that the equipment will definitely be replaced sooner rather than later. The timeline is uncertain.

 

You asked the best way to connect multiple pieces of network gear designed to serve a single network. Best doesn't usually equal cheapest. Your original layout would work just fine, with all traffic on 1 switch contending with a single link to get to the other switch, or giving up multiple ports on both switches with LACP groups to achieve better cross switch traffic flow. You either buy more ports or faster ports. Changing to a single switch large enough to serve all your devices eliminates that consideration.

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@jonathanm

I did end up getting the 52 port GS752TX. But the cost on the poe switches with a decent power budget and 10g uplinks and sfp+ was a bit out of my range at the moment. So I ended up getting a GS728TPP, which has 24 ports, POE+, 380w total but only 4x 1g sfp ports. I have been advised that it is not possible to connect the sfp to the sfp+ for uplink. I would really like to retain all 48 ports for drops in my house. I can sacrifice some on the POE. So would my best wiring configuration be 1x 10g uplink on the main switch to my router, 1x 10g uplink on the main switch to a regular port on the POE switch, and then either a rj45 module to make one of the sfp+ a 10g copper to a 10g nic on my server, or a 10g sfp+ card in my server to connect to the sfp+ on the main switch? Or do you see a better way of doing it?

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1 hour ago, jebusfreek666 said:

10g sfp+ card in my server to connect to the sfp+ on the main switch?

Assuming your server is in the same physical closet, I believe that's the cheapest way.

I offered 45 for an auction very similar to this one, and it was accepted. https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-2-MNPA19-XTR-MELLANOX-10GB-ETHERNET-NETWORK-INTERFACE-CARD-W-CABLES/282378634053 I put 1 card in each of my servers at this location, that way server to server is 10GB as well as serving the rest of the LAN / WAN loads at 10GB for each server.

 

As far as uplinking the switches, if you find a single port restrictive in the future you could always LAG another port. You already gained 6 or more ports by going with a single 52 instead of linking 2 24 port switches, so unless your planned number of drops suddenly increased to absorb your extra capacity....

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One more question I just thought of. My server rack is going to be in a pretty small closet, only about 3'x2' so it wont have a ton of room for side access to get behind it. As such, I am planning on getting a rack with casters so if I need to I can pull the whole thing forward, out of the closet. Originally I was planning on running cat6 from each individual jack in my house directly back to a patch panel on the server rack. Now I am thinking that it would be problematic if I do it that way, as removing the server rack would require removal of patch panel which would have to be somehow slid through the rack and then left free hanging by the connections on the back. 

 

I just had a different idea. What if I had each of the jacks in the house come back to the main server closet and terminate at another jack? That way I could wire shorter "patch" cables to punch down into the back of the patch panel and terminate them with plugs. Then, if I needed to remove the server I could just unplug each one from behind the server, but the patch panel could stay in place and remain wired. 

 

I guess my biggest question with doing it this way is, will it degrade the signal/speed with the extra connection behind the server rack? And if this is okay to do, I assume I should use stranded cable for this portion instead of the solid cable that will be in the wall? It might need more flex i guess?

Edited by jebusfreek666
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The correct answer depends heavily on your specific layout, but in general you want the fewest connections in each run, and solid core cable wherever possible.

 

Perhaps you could route the cables in such a way as to allow articulation to the rack? If they drop in through the ceiling at the midpoint of the space above the rack, bundled with a long gentle curve that extends well below the patch panel, then rolling the entire rack out with the wires still attached would be possible. Just be sure all the wires are properly attached to the patch panel so there is no strain or movement at the punch downs.

 

That arrangement would also allow for the greatest flexibility of where in the closet the patch panel ends up living, if you decide a few years down the road to change things up.

 

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12 minutes ago, jonathanm said:

Perhaps you could route the cables in such a way as to allow articulation to the rack? If they drop in through the ceiling at the midpoint of the space above the rack, bundled with a long gentle curve that extends well below the patch panel, then rolling the entire rack out with the wires still attached would be possible. Just be sure all the wires are properly attached to the patch panel so there is no strain or movement at the punch downs.

 

The closet is under the stairs. So I will either be coming up from through the floor directly behind the rack, or through the floor behind a short 5' wall that transitions into a slanted ceiling to match the angle of the stairs, then out throuh a pass through on that wall. If I do direct solid core cable from the jacks to the patch panel, I guess I will leave a lot of extra length and install some hooks or something on that short wall to hang the loops on. Just want to avoid all the weight hanging on the patch panel. 

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