What could be the best CPU for me?


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Hello,

 

The past:

I am a database guy and programmer. And so I am not so good in the current hardware game.

For some years now I was using a Synology NAS with around 10 TB space. Currently it is all used up and because of the limits with Synology+Docker I am now willing to upgrade my NAS. Therefore I compared FreeNAS and unRAID. The clear winner for me was unRAID and now I have the software but must find suitable hardware.

 

My new network server must be for:

  • primarily network storage with backups
  • build tasks for programmed software (pipelines)
  • network GIT
  • cronjobs (build processes, backups, ...)
  • network media center for videos and photos
  • nextcloud
  • some Docker containers (own websites, programms, ...)

 

I want:

  • around 15 TB space
  • space should be upgradable in the future
  • later this year upgrade to 10gbit network, currently one RJ45 will do, maybe two for link aggregation (but when I want to upgrade, I can now save some money on the motherboard)

 

My budget should be 1.500$ max.

 

I currently have three setups in mind and here are the parts:

-> All would use this case (I did not find it on pcpartspicker).

 

My Questions:

  1. What Version of the three is the best for main storage and only some other tasks (no gaming)?
  2. What Version of the three has the best idle energy usage? Does a i5 really uses less power than a Ryzen when there is no work to do?
  3. What Version of the three do you recommend for the next five to eight years?
  4. Is it better to use 3x 8TB or 4x 6TB HDDs? (ignore the space difference, only the question of performance and later upgrades.)
  5. Does unRAID work best with 250GB SSD or 512GB SSD?
  6. Is this space calculator reliable?
  7. Feel free to post also complexly other parts in order to change one of my versions. Like I said: I am not good in case of hardware and so I am thankful for input with descriptions/reasons.
  8. I read somewhere that I can later plug in one more HDD in order to extend the space without loosing my data. But I can not find that information again, is this correct?

 

Thanks for your help.

greetings

 

* source of the low power build: https://forums.unraid.net/topic/89113-my-silent-low-power-server-build/

 

Edited by christopher2007
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31 minutes ago, christopher2007 said:

My Questions:

My answers:

  1. For similar price, I would pick the i5. Your low power build isn't really that low compared to the i5.
  2. You are overthinking it when you start to consider idle power consumption because it is generally very low - low enough that if you are concerned about it, you are better off saving money for more critical items, like food and water. The AMD build will consume more power, just from the fact that it requires a dedicated GPU (which by the way, you have not included in the build cost)
  3. The AMD build
  4. 3x8TB. HDD failure follows statistical patterns so the fewer drives you have, the lower the chance that you have a failed drive.
  5. There is no "best", there is only "suitable". You need to consider how much data will be on the cache pool.
    And generally, you should go for higher capacity SATA rather than lower capacity NVMe. The real life diff in performance between SATA and NVMe is pretty negligible outside of pretty niche workloads.
  6. Define "reliable"? Available space doesn't need a calculator to be honest. Remove your parity drive then add up the rest. You can do that in your head.
  7. See above point about AMD build needs dedicated GPU
  8. That is correct.
Edited by testdasi
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Thanks a lot @testdasi for your answers. Very helpful!

 

But I am curious over your decision:

  1. Why picking the i5 over the AMD for similar price, but then talking over a longer recommended use in the future with the AMD? Can you please explain to me, why you think the Intel i5 9400 is better then the Ryzon  7 3700X?
  2. Do I really need a GPU? In the i5 build a chip GPU is integrated inside the CPU and in the AMD the GPU is missing completely. Shouldn't it be possible to run a storage server without a GPU?
  3. in general: What services or programs heavily use the GPU?
  4. Do I have an advantage when I even put a GPU in the i5 build? If so, what would you recommend?

Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it a lot!

Edited by christopher2007
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1 hour ago, christopher2007 said:

Do I really need a GPU? In the i5 build a chip GPU is integrated inside the CPU and in the AMD the GPU is missing completely. Shouldn't it be possible to run a storage server without a GPU?

You can run an unRAID server completely headless (no GPU or monitor).  One of my servers runs this way.  Depending on the system, you may need a 'dummy plug' in a video connector which fools the system into thinking it has a video card.  Some motherboards will not boot without video.

 

1 hour ago, christopher2007 said:

in general: What services or programs heavily use the GPU?

If you want to do Plex, Emby, HandBrake or other hardware-based video transcoding, you need a GPU (Intel integrated or discrete).  If you want to run VMs with other than VNC video, you need a GPU.  For most VM scenarios you would want to pass through a GPU.  iGPU in Intel CPUs can also be passed through.

 

If you don't care about any of that, you can run headless with no GPU.

Edited by Hoopster
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Cool, thanks for the explanation @Hoopster.

I learned a lot in the last compact answerers (better a large SSD then a smaller m2, GPU for several tasks, parity calculation, ...).

 

So now the only remaining question is: Intel i5 build or Ryzon 2700X build?

Any last comparisons, reasons or inputs on that? (power use, idle speed, direct power, future forward-looking, ...)

And on @testdasi's answer: Why picking the i5 over the AMD for similar price, but then talking over a longer recommended use in the future with the AMD?

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by christopher2007
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11 hours ago, christopher2007 said:

And on @testdasi's answer: Why picking the i5 over the AMD for similar price, but then talking over a longer recommended use in the future with the AMD?

You didn't ask which CPU is the best CPU.

You asked which CPU is the best CPU for you.

  • Your post had quite a bit of focus on power consumption, which makes the i5 a better fit.
  • Media server (e.g. Plex) hardware transcoding is cheaper on the i5 due to the iGPU. Doing hardware transcoding on the AMD build would cost more to get the right GPU.
  • No mentioning of VM uses, which lessens the advantage of the Ryzen higher core count.

In short, I was focusing more on fit instead of being a fanboy (despite running a TR4 server myself).

If you haven't noticed, I picked the AMD build for your question 3 i.e. it's a better long-term choice.

 

Whichever build you select, I would recommend you to get a Gigabyte motherboard.

If you ever try to pass through a GPU to a VM, you will thank Gigabyte's "Initial Display Output" BIOS settings.

It doesn't guarantee you can pass through the GPU (nothing does!) but it surely makes life a hell lot easier.

 

And one last thing I noticed, you picked the 860 Pro in one of the builds.

It's a waste of money to get the "Pro" version for home uses.

Edited by testdasi
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Thanks @testdasifor your time. I think I now understand a lot of things better.

 

Currently, I am focusing on the AMD build.

Of course, you were right that I had other things in mind with my first post. But yesterday I read so much about VMs and the power of combining workstations, that I now have the vision to slowly migrate from two desktop workstations, a laptop and a server to only one server with VMs (also a little bit gaming from time to time).

Nothing for a one-night-build, but a process over time.

 

So I stepped my parts list up and here is the updated AMD build.

Like you recommended: 860 instead of 860 Pro and added a graphics card (also a stronger power supply and other RAM - see below).

 

Remaining questions:

  1. I read about ECC. UnRAID does natively not support FFS I think, but ECC should nevertheless be a thing in a server where data integrity is important. So the current motherboard in the build supports ECC (at least it is written in the manual) and the memory does it too. Sadly the memory is 2666MHz and not the needet 3200MHz, but a person on reddit wrote that it should be possible.
    My Question: Am I overthinking it? Is ECC really a good thing? Currently, I would like to have it, better than not.
  2. Can you maybe name me an alternative motherboard to the current ASRock? A Gigabyte version in order to use the "Initial Display Output" BIOS setting for the upcoming VMs? That really would be awesome.
  3. Is there also another weakness in the build? Are 16 GB RAM enough, would it be better to get a supermicro serverkit, ...

 

In general, I am quite happy with the build.

ECC and the Display-Output-Option are the only things currently giving me stomach pain.

 

Thanks in advance.

Edited by christopher2007
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28 minutes ago, christopher2007 said:

I do not find a ECC compatible Motherboard from Gigabyte for the Ryzen 7 3700X.

You might want to take a look at the ASRock Rack X470D4U.  It is a server board supporting Ryzen CPUs (it may be the only one).  It has ECC support and IPMI, if that is of interest to you.

 

Both of my current servers have ASRock Rack server boards (although with Intel CPUs).  How the graphics card management compares to the GIgabyte boards, I do not know; however, they have the capability of designating the primary graphics adapter whether it is an iGPU or a GPU in a PCIe slot.  How it handles multiple GPUs in PCIe slots, I do not know as I do not have that situation.

 

You could download the user manual to see if that gives you any useful information

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I despair a little bit and want to give up.

All sources tell some different things and I have not the knowledge to have an overview.

 

  1. I compared the `ASRock Rack X470D4U` and the `ASRock X570 Pro4`. Both seem to support ECC, but only the X570 supports DDR4-3200. And that is recommended for the Ryzen 7 3700X. But what does "recommended" mean? Do I have a bad experience when using only DDR4-2666? (My main PC with a i7-7700K runs well and I never checked the speed of CPU to MB to RAM ... ok, sometimes it is a little slow, but that also can be the OS.)
  2. I tried to create two build in order to compare and I came up with these:
    1. The AMD build from above, slightly modified.
      1. Pros when compared with the Intel Xeon build: more power (stronger CPU), also less needed energy/power, lower power supply needed, cheaper
      2. Cons when compared with the Intel Xeon build: No idea if ECC will work, RAM must be overclocked
    2. A new Xeon build, with all your recommendations and new knowledge :
      1. Pros when compared with the AMD build: Gigabyte motherboard (for "Initial Display Output" BIOS setting), guaranteed working ECC, 2x Ethernet for link aggregation
      2. Cons when compared with the AMD build: less power than the AMD build (weaker CPU), more power/energy needed, bigger power supply (I did not find any 500 Watt with the extra 4-pin ATX for the motherboard - why?), more expensive

 

To 2:

What build would you recommend for replacing two main workstation in the next months (Linux and Windows VMs), some docker container (websites, database, plex, ...), build processes and a little gaming?

Can I basically compare the numbers of the CPUs and motherboards, or are there specifications that are more important than numbers? (Functions, that for example only a Xeon has, ...). Because I have the feeling, that the AMD build is more a desktop build and the Xeon is more a server build. But why do I have that feeling? And why is it so hard to get a Ryzen with the correct RAM with the needed Speed and ECC all together?

 

Sry for my bad knowledge in this field. I really try my best, reading and learning as fast as I can.

And of course, thank you for all your time.

Edited by christopher2007
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2 hours ago, christopher2007 said:

I compared the `ASRock Rack X470D4U` and the `ASRock X570 Pro4`. Both seem to support ECC, but only the X570 supports DDR4-3200. And that is recommended for the Ryzen 7 3700X

According to the X470D4U manual it does support DDR4 3200 RAM modules if you are using only two memory slots.  Matisse Ridge is Ryzen 3rd generation.  In most unRAID uses, you will not see much difference at all (if any) between 3200 and 2666 Mhz RAM speeds.  By the way, you should NEVER overclock your RAM in a server.  That's asking for instability.

 

image.png.10934436424c232b10f7d9959f0723fc.png

 

You are tying yourself up in knots and overthinking many things. Figure out what you really want/need you server to do and pick what appears to give you most of what you need.

 

I don't have any experience with Ryzen systems and I just upgraded my system to the latest Xeon  CPU, but either one (or even an i5 to a lesser degree) will work well for you based on your list of wants and needs in your first post. 

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Ok, so I should let the RAM on 2666. Thanks for the warning.

 

For me it is now more or less a decision between the Xeon and the AMD build. All I am reading now are very special features and you are right, that is tying me up in knots.

I am just wondering, why the AMD build is 300$ cheaper but has more power compared in numbers (more cpu cores, ...).

Do you have a last personal rating between the two builds (new AMD link and Xeon link)? Do I have any benefits with the more expensive and less powerful Xeon? Or are the numbers misleading in real life scenarios?

Edited by christopher2007
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4 minutes ago, christopher2007 said:

For me it is now more or less a decision between the Xeon and the AMD build. All I am reading now are very special features and you are right, that is tying me up in knots.

I am just wondering, why the AMD build is 300$ cheaper but has more power compared in numbers (more cpu cores, ...).

Do you have a last personal rating between the two builds? Do I have any benefits with the more expensive and less powerful Xeon? Or are the numbers misleading in real life scenarios?

Intel monopolised the CPU market, both enterprise and consumer, for decades until AMD came back with Ryzen. So that's why Intel is already generally more expensive than AMD.

Then you are comparing AMD consumer CPU vs Intel Xeon line (i.e. enterprise clientele), of course the Xeon build is (a lot) more expensive.

 

The reason why AMD has risen was because Ryzen offers better performance than Intel for cheaper.

 

 

Also for your X570 motherboard, don't pick the one with only 2 x16 slots (i.e. the long ones). Go for the one with 3 x16 slots.

It would be defeating the purpose to get Gigabyte motherboard for the Initial Display Output functionality but then cut off 1 of the possible 3 x16 slots (i.e. one that can be used for a GPU).

 

And budget about $30-$50 more for the possibility of needing a low-end GPU for Unraid to boot with (or borrow it from a friend) so you can dump the vbios.

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I am sorry, this time I have big troubles understanding the content of your answer. Maybe it is because of my bad knowledge or due to my English skills.

 

45 minutes ago, testdasi said:

Intel monopolised the CPU market, both enterprise and consumer, for decades until AMD came back with Ryzen. So that's why Intel is already generally more expensive than AMD.

Then you are comparing AMD consumer CPU vs Intel Xeon line (i.e. enterprise clientele), of course the Xeon build is (a lot) more expensive.

 

The reason why AMD has risen was because Ryzen offers better performance than Intel for cheaper.

But although I picked an AMD consumer CPU, I should not have disadvantages over the Xeon, right? From the features I read, there should be no big difference.

 

45 minutes ago, testdasi said:

Also for your X570 motherboard, don't pick the one with only 2 x16 slots (i.e. the long ones). Go for the one with 3 x16 slots.

Here I now have my understanding problems:

You refer to the Gigabyte X570, not the ASRock X570, right? Both have the same `X570` in the name, so I am a little bit confused.

 

Let's assume you meant the Gigabyte X570:

So I should not take the Gigabyte X570 AORUS ELITE because it only has 2 x16 PCI-E. I should go for 3 x16 PCI-E, but do you mean the Gigabyte X570 UD or the Gigabyte X570 AORUS PRO?

 

45 minutes ago, testdasi said:

It would be defeating the purpose to get Gigabyte motherboard for the Initial Display Output functionality but then cut off 1 of the possible 3 x16 slots (i.e. one that can be used for a GPU).

So picking one with 3 x16 should not defeat the purpose to get Gigabyte, right? Or is the 3 x16 defeating the purpose of getting a Gigabyte?

I will use a GPU, currently there is a Nvidia 1060Ti in the build.

 

45 minutes ago, testdasi said:

And budget about $30-$50 more for the possibility of needing a low-end GPU for Unraid to boot with (or borrow it from a friend) so you can dump the vbios.

Will unraid not boot with this build? Why do I need a second cheap GPU?

And do I have to dump vbios in order to pass through the 1060Ti to a VM?

 

Sry for the mess, but I really have big troubles understanding your answer. All the references are confusing do to double used names.

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38 minutes ago, christopher2007 said:

But although I picked an AMD consumer CPU, I should not have disadvantages over the Xeon, right? From the features I read, there should be no big difference.

 

Here I now have my understanding problems:

You refer to the Gigabyte X570, not the ASRock X570, right? Both have the same `X570` in the name, so I am a little bit confused.

 

Let's assume you meant the Gigabyte X570:

So I should not take the Gigabyte X570 AORUS ELITE because it only has 2 x16 PCI-E. I should go for 3 x16 PCI-E, but do you mean the Gigabyte X570 UD or the Gigabyte X570 AORUS PRO?

 

So picking one with 3 x16 should not defeat the purpose to get Gigabyte, right? Or is the 3 x16 defeating the purpose of getting a Gigabyte?

I will use a GPU, currently there is a Nvidia 1060Ti in the build.

 

Will unraid not boot with this build? Why do I need a second cheap GPU?

And do I have to dump vbios in order to pass through the 1060Ti to a VM?

 

Sry for the mess, but I really have big troubles understanding your answer. All the references are confusing do to double used names.

An enterprise build has features that you won't find on consumer build e.g. PSU monitoring, IPMI, intruder protection, encryption, etc. These features will be available on enterprise motherboards, which require enterprise CPU (e.g. Intel Xeon and AMD EPYC).

Even when you compare an Intel Xeon and an Intel i7 of exactly the same feature-set, the Xeon CPU is more expensive just because of market segmentation i.e. you have less money than [insert the name of a corporation].

 

As for the motherboard, yes, go for the other 2 examples instead of the Aorus Elite as long as the feature set match your requirements.

 

Picking a Gigabyte motherboard with 2 x16 slots is defeating the purpose.

(X570) mobo with 3 x16 slots will have the 3rd slot running at x4 speed (i.e. slower). So if required, you can put a low-end GPU in this slower 3rd slot and save the 2x fast slots for other things.

Mobo with 2 x16 slots only have fast slots.

 

A vbios is likely required to pass through a single GPU to a VM.

There are 2 methods to get a vbios (both methods require some Hex editing to work (watch SpaceInvader One Youtube videos) but that is beside the point):

  • Dump your own, which requires a 2nd GPU to boot Unraid with before dumping
  • Download from Techpowerup

The vbios must match the exact brand, model and revision. That means the version on Techpowerup may not match your GPU exactly. Dumping your own is the only way to ensure it's the right one.

 

Once you have dumped the vbios and create a VM that works with the passed through GPU, you may be able to remove the low-end one and run your server with just a single fast GPU. It depends on the exact hardware so it's impossible to tell in advance.

So IF you need a low-end GPU for it to work, having the ability to use a slow PCIe slot for the low-end GPU for Unraid to boot with (and reserve the fast slot for the fast GPU that would be used for the VM), in addition to NOT needing to physically swap GPU slots, makes life easier.

And that's why I said you can borrow the low-end from a friend but budget for "the possibility" of needing it.

 

Also, you asked about "can Unraid boot".

Unraid will boot with a single GPU. We are talking about passing that GPU to a VM.

 

On a side note, that's also why it's usually easier to pass through a GPU on an Intel build with iGPU. The iGPU serves as the low-end so dumping vbios is trivial.

 

 

Edited by testdasi
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