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Upgrade old machine or start over?


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Posted

Looking for advice on a older machine I have. I bought this about 8 years ago and it served me well for most of that time. Last year I moved and it's been a year or more since I turned on or used this machine. I was the second owner and it was pretty much ready to go when I bought it with the exception of hard drives. I'm thinking it is a bit long in the tooth now and wondering if it is worth trying to replace some hardware in this machine or am I better off starting over. I don't know much about computers so I took some photos, hopefully they mean something to those with more knowledge of the components. I can see that there are (2) sticks of 2Gig RAM which doesn't seem like much these days. The motherboard is SuperMicro but not sure of model. I pulled the fan off of the processor to see information on it. 

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13vhdYELNddOwZMJNzPrbkfGYApba6RtY/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/140dkdLzjvLsH39okKGal7ePgThr0FXpZ/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/145-ceuX0eEQ_9I09fZvzmNF6CZ0aDCdP/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/145P7gYNRyRUkjwoZy1h3FrOJjDTfK86B/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/148lgfeddHofOZcbHhL6IaABWPVrNsHqk/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/14HafmhdsVTO0d8Anmrn9jmZZPVgL97Ih/view?usp=sharing, https://drive.google.com/file/d/14Ic3vBukMQTkA6pX-rwJlaLTL2AnU7Lf/view?usp=sharing

 

Posted

No where in any of the pictures do you have a date of manufacture for any of the products.

2 hours ago, dropzone7 said:

I pulled the fan off of the processor to see information on it. 

This processor (Celeron E1400) was introduced about 2009.  It was the low end of the Intel line at that time.  I looked at the passmark for this processor and it was 642 which is very slow for today's Unraid if you want anything more than a single Parity NAS box.  I tried to count the pins on the power supply plug and I think it only has twenty pins.  (Again, very typical for that time period.  You need a twenty-four pin PS for any up-to-date MB.)

 

Personally, I would salvage the hard drives (More for the data) and the case.   What you replace the MB with and how much RAM you want in the new setup will depend on what you want to so with the new setup.  It looks like you have between twelve to sixteen HD's in that case.  I think that 1000W PS may be a bit of an overkill unless you intended to put a one (or two) high power GPU into the mix. 

 

I would also suggest that you consider replacing the current parity drive with a 8TB to 12TB HD.  The reason for this is that you may want to get rid some of the smaller/older/slower HD's and reduce the drive count.  This should provide for a more reliable array as the larger HD drives have about the same failure rate as smaller ones.  

 

Give us your thoughts on what you want to be able to do with a new rig.  (I would certainty not do any upgrading on the current MB/CPU/RAM combination.  It should run the most recent version of Unraid with just about the same level of performance as when you shut it down.  Just save that money toward your new system.)

 

PS-- What are the HBA cards that you are using.  Cards using the Marvell controller often have problems with the latest version of Unraid.

 

 

Posted

Thanks for your reply and the suggestions. I believe there are 22 or 24 hard drive slots in this machine and I think I have (8) 2TB drives in it. To be honest, I'm not really interested in doing anything other than storing my movies and streaming them with devices like my Nvidia Shield, Firestick and maybe a higher end 4K BluRay player with streaming capabilities (not sure what's available these days, it's been a while). I have enjoyed the simplicity of unraid and knowing that it just works and is not complicated. Out of curiousity what else would one do with an unraid server? Am I missing out on something? Any suggestions on shopping list for motherboard, processor, RAM?

 

 

Posted

Take a look at the two servers in my signature.  They are typical NAS type boxes that do have the capability to run Media server applications,  I do believe that they would only be capable of transcoding one (or two, at the most) 1080 steams using Plex.  (I would think transcoding is now becoming a thing of the past as recent smartphones/tablets now have the horsepower to be able to do their own transcoding.)  It was been a couple of years since I upgrade them so I can't give you current cost but it should be less than $500 including a new PS.  Just be sure you get a CPU and MB with built-in video which you will need only for the console.  Make sure the MB has enough PCI-X slots for HBA cards.  (That case looked large enough to able to accommodate any size MB.)

 

By the way, you should also install the Community Applications APP which provides APP store functionality to the Unraid environment.  You can find more information here:

 

https://forums.unraid.net/topic/38582-plug-in-community-applications/

 

I would personally like to suggest that you upgrade to the latest release before trying to install any new plugins or Dockers. 

  • Thanks 1
Posted
13 minutes ago, dropzone7 said:

I swear I have looked everywhere and I don't see a signature area for you. Where am I missing it?

 

Look at the top of this screen.  Now click and open up the dropdown box to the right of your login name.  Pick "Account Settings", then chose "Signature", Now move the slider to the right for the "View signatures?" option.  

Posted
2 hours ago, Frank1940 said:

Look at the top of this screen.  Now click and open up the dropdown box to the right of your login name.  Pick "Account Settings", then chose "Signature", Now move the slider to the right for the "View signatures?" option.  

Ah, rookie mistake, thanks!

 

Posted
1 hour ago, dropzone7 said:

Ah, rookie mistake, thanks!

 

Not really!  For some reason, the webmaster chose the 'no  signature'  option as the default.  I, personally, think it should have been on and allow those folks who don't want to see them to turn it off.  (I would guess it makes the experience better for those using smartphones...)

Posted (edited)

Begin by counting the number of pins on the main MB power connector .  You need a 24 pin connector for all modern MB's!   (Many earlier MB's need a connector with only twenty pins.  Many PS's come with a twenty pin connector with a four pin extender which turns it into 24 pin arrangement.)   

 

You need to decide what you want to use your system for in the next five years. 

 

If you want a basic NAS, look at the low end processor. MB with a minimum of 2 PCIx16 slots.  6 SATA connectors.  8GB of RAM.  For additional SATA ports, you want a LSI SATA card in IT-mode.  (9201-8i, 9211-8i, 9207-8i, 9300-8i, etc and clones, like the Dell H200/H310 and IBM M1015.  The latter two require crossflashing.) 

 

At the other end, for a system that can support gaming VM, you are going to need an i9 or Xeon CPU with more than 32GB of RAM and an upper end graphics card.  (I have seen some system with 96GB of RAM.  Not really sure if that is truly necessary...)

 

For a system in between these two, you can use any other processor family.  AMD will work also if you so choose.  If you are wondering how to put everything together, do a bit of looking on YouTube.  There are a lots of videos that will walk you through the process.  It is really not that difficult if you are of average dexterity and can use a screwdriver.  (I would assume you are as you got your present server apart into pieces.  😉  )  

 

Of course, you probably have some budgetary constrains so you will have to factor that into the equation.

 

PS--- IF that flash drive is your Unraid boot drive, make a copy of it right now on your PC, and put that physical drive in a safe place!

PSS---  Save all the hardware-- screws, standoffs, etc. --that you removed to disassemble the old system.  It will be need when you build the new one.

 

Edited by Frank1940
  • Like 1
Posted

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond and for the great detail, very helpful! Looks like my power supply is 20-pin with the 4-pin side attachment. That USB drive did come off the motherboard and I just made a backup to a PC per your suggestion. It says I'm on version 4.4.2. So, I can continue to use this licence and update to a current version without purchasing a new license? Now that I look at this machine some more, I wonder if I should just totally start over. I don't really need (20) drives and this thing is a beast. I would not mind have a slightly smaller form factor, using fewer drives but larger capacity. I'm currently using 2TB drives and I believe there are maybe (6) in there. I'm thinking maybe I could get away with an (8) drive system using one for parity drive and use 4 or 6TB drives. I want to rack mount whatever I end up with which is what I did before. I don't necessarily have to have the hot swap drive trays either. I'm confused about the SATA connections though. Does a connection support more than one drive? This machine can hold (20) drives but I only have two or three cards? Oh, to answer your question about what I want to do with the machine and looking 5 years out, if it can effortlessly serve my movie backups then that's all I'm really after. I'm not really a gamer but when I do it's with an XBOX OneX and possibly new generation console when those come out. I would really like to play the new Microsoft Flight Sim which is supposed to be supported by XBOX at some point. Budget for an Unraid server, I'm flexible and don't mind spending some money if it's going to prevent having to replace things in a few years. This will ultimately go in a rack in a home theater room so I want it to look nice and blend in with my amps and other components. 

 

Posted
3 minutes ago, dropzone7 said:

So, I can continue to use this licence and update to a current version without purchasing a new license?

Yes.  You will have to find the .key file.  I believe it is the root of the drive with that version.  It goes in the config  folder/directory with the most recent version.  You will also have to run the 'New Permissions' tool found in the Tools tab. (That license will also transfer to a new USB at any point in the future if you so desire. Process is virtually automatic now days with the current version of Unraid.)

12 minutes ago, dropzone7 said:

I don't really need (20) drives and this thing is a beast. I would not mind have a slightly smaller form factor, using fewer drives but larger capacity. I'm currently using 2TB drives and I believe there are maybe (6) in there. I'm thinking maybe I could get away with an (8) drive system using one for parity drive and use 4 or 6TB drives.

In this Hardware sub-forum, you will find the Enclosure thread.  Rack mount cases are a premium product and the selection is limited. 

 

Yes, the basic LSI card do support more than eight drives BUT it requires a piece of hardware (called an 'Expander' if I recall correctly).  The problem is that the bandwidth also gets split.  Your current case may already have this hardware in it.

 

When deciding on the initial drive size, look for the 'sweetspot' as defined by the cost per TB.  A lot of folks are 'schunking' (sp?) USB drives as they are often bargains!  One fact, you may not be aware of:  Hard drive reliability appears to be independent of drive capacity. 

20 minutes ago, dropzone7 said:

Oh, to answer your question about what I want to do with the machine and looking 5 years out, if it can effortlessly serve my movie backups then that's all I'm really after.

Then be looking in the i3 or Pentium classes of CPU's (or their AMD equivalents).  Be sure the CPU/MB combination supports on board video!  You will need it for troubleshooting and accessing the BIOS for the initial setup.  (cheap video cards are a thing of the past.)

 

28 minutes ago, dropzone7 said:

This will ultimately go in a rack in a home theater room so I want it to look nice and blend in with my amps and other components. 

You may want to fire up the fans in the current case and see how noisy they are.  Fans in rack mount cases are notorious for being just-a-bit-noisy.  🤣  (In their original configuration, They wanted to be able to move air-- not be quiet!)  You may have to replace them...

Posted

Oh, one more thing.  After you get the new hardware installed, boot it up with the current Unraid version and run a non-correcting parity check.  Make one change at a time.  Makes troubleshooting so much easier...

Posted

Funny you mention the fans. Those were the only things I did change upon acquiring this machine from it's original owner. It sounded like a jet engine and fans seemed to be cheap so I replaced the ones on the middle fan chassis. Made a big difference but it was still far from silent. I would probably look for something better now that some years have passed. I just started taking more parts out this afternoon and this thing is filthy! I hate to not use this case as they are expensive like you said and to replace it with something similar is going to be $500 plus. If I'm not mistaken, at this point I will have pulled all of the original components from the machine except for the hard drive backplanes. Is there any reason to believe that these will be a bottleneck when replacing everything else with more modern components? 

Posted
1 hour ago, dropzone7 said:

If I'm not mistaken, at this point I will have pulled all of the original components from the machine except for the hard drive backplanes. Is there any reason to believe that these will be a bottleneck when replacing everything else with more modern components? 

Which does the connector on the other end of all those SATA connectors look like?  Try and get a picture of one (or more of them).  Is there any information on the manufacturer or model number of that case.  Get some info and pictures and I will poke a Guru who seems to work on a lot of systems that have different configurations and get his thoughts.  Also provide a SATA cable count and the total number of drive bays in that case. 

Posted
57 minutes ago, dropzone7 said:

Of course, when I start searching for motherboards, every affordable and recommended model is either sold out or price inflated due to lack of availability.

 

Look here: 

         https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-ROG-B460-H-Motherboard-Thunderbolt/dp/B087M4TRGK/ref=psdc_1048424_t3_B087M43LRN

and

        https://www.amazon.com/PRO-LGA1151-Gigabit-Gaming-Motherboard/dp/B07J6Z9KJ2/ref=sr_1_12?dchild=1&keywords=motherboards&qid=1592255216&sr=8-12

 

Both are under MSRP but I am not sure how much they are above pre Covid-19 prices. I think both of these have 4 memory slots which simplifies memory upgrading.  (Fill two initially leaving two for later)  Note:  M2 slots and SATA connectors are often shared so watch that...

 

Google MB model and go to manufacturer website for more complete specs. 

Posted
3 hours ago, Frank1940 said:

Which does the connector on the other end of all those SATA connectors look like?  Try and get a picture of one (or more of them).  Is there any information on the manufacturer or model number of that case.  Get some info and pictures and I will poke a Guru who seems to work on a lot of systems that have different configurations and get his thoughts.  Also provide a SATA cable count and the total number of drive bays in that case. 

So, there are 4 sets of these red cables. The end with the single connector goes into the back planes so I have four back planes. The other end is split into 4 smaller connectors per cable. Labeled P0, P1, P2, P3. I believe those were plugged into my smaller cards and maybe some of the directly into the motherboard.  

 

I can't find a model number on the case but I'm fairly certain it is a Norco RPC4220

 

https://www.newegg.com/norco-rpc-4220/p/N82E16811219033

 

 

20200615_195228.jpg

20200615_195511.jpg

20200615_195253.jpg

Posted

Actually count the bays on the front.  Now look at that backplane behind the drive bays and see how many connectors you have for this plug:

image.png.45e6ba5ec06fb224a7ba24a3a8648263.png

 

My reasoning for wanting this information is that if an expander is used on that backplane, each plug will support a multiple of four drives.  As example if you had three of those connectors, you could support 12, 24, 36, 48 drives.  (Without an expander, you can only use four drives for each of these connectors.)  See here for more info:

 

    http://www.sasexpanders.com/faq/

Posted (edited)

Okay, I have (20) drive bays looking at the front of the machine. I removed the fan bracket to get a better look at the backplane. It appears there is an open port on that bottom board so with only (4) cables currently plugged in as seen in the photos I guess I can only support up to (16) drives. So, I need to add another cable down there and then I need whatever SATA card(s) will accept the 5 x 4 breakout connections on the other end of those cables. 

 

 

 

20200617_095057.jpg

20200617_094911.jpg

20200617_094744.jpg

Edited by dropzone7
removed link
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dropzone7 said:

Okay, I have (20) drive bays looking at the front of the machine. I removed the fan bracket to get a better look at the backplane. It appears there is an open port on that bottom board so with only (4) cables currently plugged in as seen in the photos I guess I can only support up to (16) drives.

As you noted and the screen capture shows there is a fifth port on that backplane.  That means there is not an expander on the backplane.  

image.thumb.png.f53e05d4ac5112bf672e6c124dea1e4c.png

You will simply plug the four SATA cables of one of the present connectors into SATA ports on the MB.  If you use LSI cards, you will need a new connector cables to run between the card and the backplane.  For the LSI cards see this post:

   https://forums.unraid.net/topic/69018-sata-controller-replacement-question-and-advice/?tab=comments#comment-630097

The LSI 9XXX-8 i cards will each handle eight drives.   The card must be in the IT-mode.  You can find a lot of them listed on E-bay at reasonable prices. I would start with one card and add others as required.   Carefully vet the vendors and buy local to your country.  (There are counterfeit cards out there!) Don't let price be your only guide!!!   @johnnie.black, can you tell him what cable he will need for the card-to-backplane connection? 

Edited by Frank1940
  • Thanks 1
Posted
2 minutes ago, Frank1940 said:

can you tell him what cable he will need for the card-to-backplane connection? 

SFF-8087 to SATA reverse breakout cables - if connecting the backplane to regular SATA ports on the board/controller

SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 to connect the backplane to an LSI or similar controller with miniSAS ports.

  • Thanks 2
Posted (edited)

I appreciate all the help. I got to tell you, this is starting to feel like work. Probably because I know nothing about this stuff.

 

So, I had (2) of these in the machine 

 

https://www.newegg.com/rosewill-rc-218-sata-ii/p/N82E16816132018

 

and (1) of these

 

https://www.newegg.com/syba-sy-sa3114-4r-sata-i/p/N82E16816124024

 

I take it that the throughput of these cards is lower than ideal. Looking at one of the LSI cards you recommended below, it would be 12Gps instead of the 3Gps I currently have. 

 

https://www.newegg.com/lsi-9300-8i-sata-sas/p/N82E16816118217

 

 

Also found these specs on my case so I guess 6Gps is what I need to look for in cards.

 

4U rackmount design

20 x hot-swappable SATA/SAS 6G drive bays, two 2.5″ OS drive brackets

Five internal SFF-8087 Mini SAS connectors support up to twenty 3.5″ or 2.5″ SATA (I, II or III) or SAS 6G hard drives

Backplanes are horizontal mounted for better ventilation

LED indicators for power and activity on each HDD tray

1 x slim CD-ROM bay, 20 x 3.5 ” hot-swappable drive bays, 2 x 2.5″ OS drive brackets

Support EEB (12″x13″), CEB(12″x10.5″), ATX (12″x9.6″), Micro ATX (9.6″ x 9.6″), Mini ITX (6.7″ x 6.7″) motherboard

 

Edited by dropzone7
Posted
2 hours ago, dropzone7 said:

Also found these specs on my case so I guess 6Gps is what I need to look for in cards.

I would be looking more at something like this:

 

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dell-H310-6Gbps-SAS-HBA-w-LSI-9211-8i-P20-IT-Mode-for-ZFS-FreeNAS-unRAID/162834659601?epid=0&hash=item25e9b3b911:g:UxcAAOSwWrxcPvQv:sc:USPSPriorityMailSmallFlatRateBox!43213!US!-1

 

This vendor has been around for several years and has an excellent reputation.  (While these cards are used, they are virtually guaranteed to built by LSI since DELL had them made as an OEM product for use in their servers.  These cards usually come when server farms are decommissioned.)

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