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Hotio v CA

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55 minutes ago, sonic6 said:

3 versions from scrutiny...What are the difference and which one should i use?

Welcome to my life...

 

Fundamentally nothing (if anything)

 

While slightly differing versions of the same app aren't a bad thing (backup versions etc), this is one of those apps where future versions being submitted to CA will probably be declined to avoid confusion and the same question.  

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In the situations where there is already a multitude of certain applications available (ie: Plex, nzbGet, Radarr, etc) new submissions of those applications will not be accepted.  An exception may however be made if the new submission brings something unique to the application.  This is at the discretion of the moderators of CA.

https://forums.unraid.net/topic/87144-ca-application-policies-notes/

 

This is one of the apps where the moderators of CA *may* remove without warning one of the scrutiny apps present within CA...   In this particular case IF one of the versions gets removed it would either be self hosters or hotio

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I think it's time that unraid gets rid of the crap that's called CA, if it ever wants to be taken seriously.

 

Doesn't make any sense to delete the official docker image...

Edited by hotio

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The docker image is under pretty heavy (and needed) development at this point. I've been working with the dev a bit via his github page, trying to get him the information he needs to make the tool a bit more reliable. He's working hard at it, but it still needs some polish before it's ready for primetime IMO.

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7 hours ago, hotio said:

It just confuses people.

What confuses people? The CA App in general or that there are multiple versions from basically the same application?

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3 hours ago, ich777 said:

What confuses people? The CA App in general or that there are multiple versions from basically the same application?

The fact that CA is moderated to shit and that one person has multiple accounts like dockerPolice...

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41 minutes ago, hotio said:

The fact that CA is moderated to shit and that one person has multiple accounts like dockerPolice...

Can you be please be a little more specific and not just write that everything is s***?

Don't understand what's wrong there.

You are writing about CA App and also the forum?

 

It sounds like you are against the forum and the CA App in general...

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12 hours ago, hotio said:

I think it's time that unraid gets rid of the crap that's called CA, if it ever wants to be taken seriously.

CA is one of the success stories of unraid, very few other NAS platforms have anything even close to the functionality and depth of CA, OK so your pissed about multiple apps shown in CA, fair enough, but CA itself is a great tool, if you got rid of it how do you propose people search and locate docker images to pull down? Docker hub? - you ever used the search on that, now thats feckin nasty!.

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58 minutes ago, binhex said:

CA is one of the success stories of unraid, very few other NAS platforms have anything even close to the functionality and depth of CA, OK so your pissed about multiple apps shown in CA, fair enough, but CA itself is a great tool, if you got rid of it how do you propose people search and locate docker images to pull down? Docker hub? - you ever used the search on that, now thats feckin nasty!.

I'm not pissed about multiple apps being shown, the more the merrier...or the CA app in itsself. The problem lies in one person (and some alt accounts) wanting to rule with an iron fist about what gets shown and what not. Sure he's the creator, but because of the way it gets heavily pushed on this forum, it might as well be natively included.

There's nothing confusing about seeing multiple docker containers for the same thing and a user wanting to know the difference between them also doesn't make that person confused, it makes him curious.

Maybe we should ask Google to remove all links to Unraid? Because it sure is confusing seeing all these NAS OS's show up, Unraid, FreeNAS, OMV, ....

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49 minutes ago, hotio said:

The problem lies in one person (and some alt accounts) wanting to rule with an iron fist about what gets shown and what not.

somebody has to moderate what gets shown in CA, otherwise you end up with broken apps, broken support links etc etc, the list goes on, how do we (as in the community) get around this issue without somebody being an 'admin' of CA?, im pretty sure Squid would love to relinquish his job as gatekeeper as no doubt it's a PITA - i certainly dont want that job, fancy it hotio?.

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6 minutes ago, binhex said:

somebody has to moderate what gets shown in CA, otherwise you end up with broken apps, broken support links etc etc, the list goes on, how do we (as in the community) get around this issue without somebody being an 'admin' of CA?, im pretty sure Squid would love to relinquish his job as gatekeeper as no doubt it's a PITA - i certainly dont want that job, fancy it hotio?.

He already offered and I accepted (and I'm sure we can find others to help), but he was quick to back down...so....says enough. There's also fundamentaly nothing wrong with moderating for the reasons you listed...but that's not what's happening or what people have an issue with. There's no good reason to remove multiple containers just for the fact that there's more than one.

Edited by hotio

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Looking back at it, your entire response (dockerPolice) was misplaced here and shouldn't even have been made.

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1 minute ago, hotio said:

He already offered and I accepted

It was not a sincere offer, since you didn't believe in the basic premise of CA.  That of a moderated system.

 

Let's use Plex as an example.  Once Plex Inc released (and maintain) their own template, there is basically zero reason for any of the other Plex containers to be present.  The app is the app is the app.  What is the actual difference between Plex Inc's container vs linuxserver vs binhex vs hotio vs needo?  Absolutely none.  Anyone can argue little points back and forth between those four flavours, but when push comes to shove they're identical because it's the app that matters, not the base image etc.

 

It's this stuff that continually causes the confusion.  What do I install?  Last time I checked on Google / Apple's play store, if I wanted to install say Candy Crush, there's only a single Candy Crush that actually appears.  Should be noted here that not once have the moderators actually removed apps due to duplication.  Yet

 

CA has always been, and always will remain a moderated system.  The intent is to not stifle innovation (and it's certainly not censorship), but rather to have a consistent and as trouble-free experience for the end user.  Nothing anywhere says you have to utilize it or the apps contained within.  Any one can always install a random app they find on docker hub.

 

Are unilateral decisions made by myself / the moderators of CA.  Of course... That's what the system is designed to do.  The decisions taken however are (I believe) for the benefit of the Unraid community as a whole.  There are fallbacks of course in cases of disputes.  I do not have ultimate responsibility for the content of CA, and in cases of disputes I accept the decisions made by the moderators and the administrators of this forum itself.

 

You don't like how the system works now?  I guarantee you're going to hate it in the future.  Currently the moderation of CA is based on a reactionary basis.  It will switch over to a proactive system in the coming months.  This is to ensure that the system that users come to rely upon is safe and secure.

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Let's rip out all docker stuff from CA, because when push comes to shove they are all the same docker images that get installed and you don't need CA for that.

 

You keep going the way you're going and there won't be anything left in CA, atleast that'll take away all the confusion.

 

There's however no point in arguing with you, you've made up your own bizarro rules and that's it....

 

PS: go search the Google/Apple app stores for "alarm clock", see how many you find...shouldn't matter that the query differs from one specific as candy Crush, you're comparing apples to oranges anyway....

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Seems my posts are dissapearing again.....

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2 hours ago, Squid said:

Let's use Plex as an example.  Once Plex Inc released (and maintain) their own template, there is basically zero reason for any of the other Plex containers to be present.

Except for the fact that support for the Plex official docker container is only available through Plex forums and, frankly, is not very good.  There have been several users abandon it for community provided and supported Plex containers. 

 

Granted, if there is a problem with the actual Plex application, you're going to have to get support from Plex Inc. anyway and many have trouble distinguishing if an issue lies with the container or the application.  Nevertheless, containers developed and supported by the community often provide a better overall experience and foster a stronger sense of community while building a strong ecosystem.

 

I am not here to argue the moderation, potential confusion and management aspects of CA, but, I do think there is often value in having a choice with certain apps although too many choices (however that is defined) can be confusing.  Even in the case of my Plex argument, the question is often asked in these forums "what is the difference between the four versions of Plex in CA?" so there is certainly some confusion. The biggest difference comes down to how they are maintained and supported and not to actual functionality.

Edited by Hoopster

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18 hours ago, hotio said:

I think it's time that unraid gets rid of the crap that's called CA, if it ever wants to be taken seriously.

 

Doesn't make any sense to delete the official docker image...

Let's keep things civil please. This is not civil and frankly undermines any point you are trying to make.

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1 hour ago, SpencerJ said:

Let's keep things civil please. This is not civil and frankly undermines any point you are trying to make.

Don't worry, I'll be pulling all my stuff from CA...I'm done with his toxic behaviour towards other developers. No matter how hard he tries to convince everybody it's not to confuse people. It'll probably save him some development time too for his "proactive" aproach. LOL

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1 hour ago, hotio said:

Don't worry, I'll be pulling all my stuff from CA...I'm done with his toxic behaviour towards other developers. No matter how hard he tries to convince everybody it's not to confuse people. It'll probably save him some development time too for his "proactive" aproach. LOL

I don't understand what's the issue and no time to research all the topics... please give me a tldr.

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May I suggest the apt approach, use repositories. You'll have one default heavily moderated repo the Squid way.

Next, you'll have a community developers repo, with Linuxservers, Hotios, binhex etc

Next, you'll have a unsigned repo where stuff like https://github.com/selfhosters/unRAID-CA-templates goes.
Lastly you'll have dockerhub repo

End users can add any repo they want in CA settings.

The non tinker confused users will only see it like Squid intends it for them.

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On 9/28/2020 at 2:32 PM, Squid said:

 

Quoted post split up in multiple parts below:

 

 

Now that I've got some time to kill, I'm more than happy to clear up some things...
 

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It was not a sincere offer, since you didn't believe in the basic premise of CA.  That of a moderated system.

That's you telling (fabricating) that my offer wasn't sincere. If I recall correct, I told you I was more than happy to do it AND that I would try and get outside help onboard, from linuxserver and selfhosters team members. I also did not say that I had a problem with a "moderated system", I only said/implied that I had a problem with a moderated system that's moderated by you and how you are feeling when you get out of bed in the morning.

 

 

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Let's use Plex as an example.  Once Plex Inc released (and maintain) their own template, there is basically zero reason for any of the other Plex containers to be present.  The app is the app is the app.  What is the actual difference between Plex Inc's container vs linuxserver vs binhex vs hotio vs needo?  Absolutely none.

This is mainly due to a lack of knowledge on your part and not wanting to spend the time to research the differences by comparing the repos and the offered features of the different images. From personal experience I can say that the Plex Inc. container can be very lackluster when it comes to updates. I recall a time I was waiting almost more than 2 weeks before I finally gave up and ditched their container. Some of their other tags at one time hadn't seen any security updates in over a year (if you think that's fine...be my guest). Linuxserver and hotio are very similar, although hotio provides an additional tag that can be useful for some people on top of some environment variables that can aid in server discovery and in case of a lockout. I can't say much about binhex, besides that it'll be probably arch based. I have never heard about needio and dockerhub gives me 1 result of a image that's severaly outdated.

But, lets not forget that this all started with you wanting to remove the official Scrutiny containers, that's very wel maintained by the developer of Scrutiny the app. Selhosters merely provided the means to let people enjoy those containers where the developer has no interest in supporting CA. The fact that linuxserver and hotio also made a container, probably is a result for me personally because I felt that the official one didn't behave like I wanted it to and thought I could do better. Your rules also dictate if I recall correct that it is not allowed to put other peoples stuff in the template repo, exception being selfhosters.
 

 

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It's this stuff that continually causes the confusion.  What do I install?  Last time I checked on Google / Apple's play store, if I wanted to install say Candy Crush, there's only a single Candy Crush that actually appears.  Should be noted here that not once have the moderators actually removed apps due to duplication.  Yet

Here you are just making up bad chosen examples to prove your point. If Candy Crush would fit to be put in a docker container, I'm sure you'll find multiple on Docker Hub. But, why don't you try doing a search for "linux distro" on Google...see what comes up then, why so many? They all run the same kernel basically....well that's FOSS at work for you.
 

 

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CA has always been, and always will remain a moderated system.  The intent is to not stifle innovation (and it's certainly not censorship), but rather to have a consistent and as trouble-free experience for the end user.  Nothing anywhere says you have to utilize it or the apps contained within.  Any one can always install a random app they find on docker hub.

You keep saying that, but stifling innovation is exaclty what you are doing. Many have looked at CA and said "screw it, not going to bother with these rules" and moved on.
 

"Any one can always install a random app they find on docker hub."
You should try doing it as a new user, telling on the forum that you installed something from DockerHub...it'll take only a couple of minutes before somebody comes telling you that it's a stupid way of doing things, just install CA they'll say.

 

 

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Are unilateral decisions made by myself / the moderators of CA.  Of course... That's what the system is designed to do.  The decisions taken however are (I believe) for the benefit of the Unraid community as a whole.  There are fallbacks of course in cases of disputes.  I do not have ultimate responsibility for the content of CA, and in cases of disputes I accept the decisions made by the moderators and the administrators of this forum itself.

"for the benefit of the Unraid community", "to not confuse the users",...all these nice catchphrases, they sound marvelous. Newsflash: it are those users aka community you keep using as a shield who are requesting these "multiple" containers to be included, because they like choice and don't eat only vanilla ice cream their entire life.

"and in cases of disputes I accept the decisions made by the moderators and the administrators of this forum itself."
This is absolutely true, but then you go and rewrite CA and make up other rules (which can change at a whim) to get your way anyway.

 

 

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You don't like how the system works now?  I guarantee you're going to hate it in the future.  Currently the moderation of CA is based on a reactionary basis.  It will switch over to a proactive system in the coming months.  This is to ensure that the system that users come to rely upon is safe and secure.

Let's hope you'll be making better decisions in the future, otherwise I have my doubts on it being "safe and secure", pushing people towards a container that hasn't seen security updates in over a year does not equal "safe and secure".

Edited by hotio
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Squid/dockerPolice:

 

Why not just let folks add their own repo URLs, like apt and yum have done forever. I'd like to publish an xml description of my app in my own repo, tell my users how to install it, and not deal with others repos at all. How do we get there? You know how GitHub and DockerHub avoid these confrontations? They don't dictate which software they'll allow users to download.

 

Clearly users want more software choice, not less.  The hoops devs have to jump through to get things they make into CA is not ideal. As a dev, I've never been confused by software/container choice, but I have been repeatedly astounded by how this system is put together, operates and moderates.  I am willing to cite specific examples of things that have astounded me, but I'm more interested in how we move past a system that prevents access to software.

 

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13 minutes ago, TwitchCaptain said:

Why not just let folks add their own repo URLs, like apt and yum have done forever.

You can do that already without CA.

image.png.20fc9b73aa6ae468d7f6de038f99b609.png

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