Basic questions before I start ordering

[GDub25]

I will be building a server soon, planning to copy Raj's 12 Drive Budget Build so that I have plans to follow.  I want to make it as easy as possible.

 

I've never built any kind of computer/server so I need some very basic help.  Not only have I never built a computer before, I've never even seen any of these hardware components in person before, just pictures online.  This makes it hard for me to understand how everything goes together and what some of the stuff actually does.  Several things I'm wondering:

 

1.  Hot swap bays, non hot swap bays, 4 in 3, 5 in 3, etc...these are all different ways of doing the same thing, holding the hard drives?  Hot swap lets you take a drive out or add a drive without powering off the server?  This is good for convenience I guess, but how often do you need to add/remove a drive?  Is shutting down to add/remove a big deal to justify spending the extra cash? 

 

2.  Do I even need drive bays, or can I hold off until I need the room?  Having never seen a case before I don't really know how they work, but from the pictures it looks like the Xigmatek case (pictured below) recommended for the 12 Drive Budget Build will hold 9 drives.  That is, it has 9 tabs in the picture, but I don't know if I just throw a drive in there or if I have to have something extra like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817997016 to hold the drive. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3.  Going through the Pimp Your Rig thread I see a lot of different looking servers.  Some have mesh on the front of the server with fans and LEDs while others have a very clean and more professional look to them with simple drive bays lined up and down the front.  I am guessing to have one look versus the other depends mainly on the case and drive bays you buy?  Examples are below.

 

 

Clean and professional

 

 

 

 

 

Mesh with LED fans

 

 

 

 

Say I want to build my server with the LED fans showing like in this second picture, I would have to by proper drive bays to allow for this, right?

 

 

[jeff.lebowski]

1. Hot swap cages allow the user to install more disks in a location that holds less. Think of hot swap cages as "drive bay converters". Did hold 3 disks, now holds 5 disks.

 

2. Definitely hold off buying a hot swap unit until you're out of space the case already gives you.

 

I think your bottom image has no hot swap cages. Those appear to be fans that come with the case.

 

No hot swap cages:

 

Wide shot:

 

Hot swap, cage that came with the case, Cooler Master 4 in 3:

[joshpond]

Sorry jeff but my understanding is a little different.

 

Hot swap means you can unplug the hdd and plug one back in, like you do with a usb without turning the computer off. For unRaid it is a waste of money as the unRaid operating system doesn't support hot swap.

 

The cages allow you to fit hdds in to the 'dvd' drive slots. DVD drive slots are 5.25in wide and hdd are 3.5in wide.

A 5 in 3 means 5 hdds in 3 DVD slots, 4 in 3 is 4 hdds in 3 DVD slots.

 

2.  Do I even need drive bays, or can I hold off until I need the room?  Having never seen a case before I don't really know how they work, but from the pictures it looks like the Xigmatek case (pictured below) recommended for the 12 Drive Budget Build will hold 9 drives.  That is, it has 9 tabs in the picture, but I don't know if I just throw a drive in there or if I have to have something extra like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817997016 to hold the drive. 

I don't have the case but from the picture it looks like it only holds DVD style slots which means you will need cages. The one you linked to is a 1 in 1 hot swap cage.

 

Have a look around and you will see some recommendations for 5 in 3's.

 

3.  Going through the Pimp Your Rig thread I see a lot of different looking servers.  Some have mesh on the front of the server with fans and LEDs while others have a very clean and more professional look to them with simple drive bays lined up and down the front.  I am guessing to have one look versus the other depends mainly on the case and drive bays you buy?  Examples are below.

 

Yes depends on what you buy.

 

Say I want to build my server with the LED fans showing like in this second picture, I would have to by proper drive bays to allow for this, right?

 

Not sure on this as I don't have drive cages but I believe most have fans on the back so you don't see them. I suspect that is a case design.

 

Josh

[SSD]

I will be building a server soon, planning to copy Raj's 12 Drive Budget Build so that I have plans to follow.  I want to make it as easy as possible.

 

I've never built any kind of computer/server so I need some very basic help.  Not only have I never built a computer before, I've never even seen any of these hardware components in person before, just pictures online.  This makes it hard for me to understand how everything goes together and what some of the stuff actually does.   Several things I'm wondering:

 

1.  Hot swap bays, non hot swap bays, 4 in 3, 5 in 3, etc...these are all different ways of doing the same thing, holding the hard drives?  Hot swap lets you take a drive out or add a drive without powering off the server?  This is good for convenience I guess, but how often do you need to add/remove a drive?  Is shutting down to add/remove a big deal to justify spending the extra cash? 

Hot swap bays become increasingly more important as your drive count goes up. First, as has already been said, they let you install up to 5 drives in the space of 3. But also they let you easily replace a disk without opening the case. If a drive fails it is important to be able to get it out and insert your replacement without disturbing the connections of any of the other drives. This is easier said than done in the confines of a computer case with so many vital cable connections.  For example, if you have 8 drives, and you have 24 or more cable connections. And realize that when a drive has failed and you are worried about recovering your data, that is not the time you want to be opening your case and taking any risks. Although these cages are not fully supported for true hotswap, they do make it very easy to power down, replace a disk, and power back up with near zero risk. It is for this reason I recommend these cages.

 

2.  Do I even need drive bays, or can I hold off until I need the room?  Having never seen a case before I don't really know how they work, but from the pictures it looks like the Xigmatek case (pictured below) recommended for the 12 Drive Budget Build will hold 9 drives.  That is, it has 9 tabs in the picture, but I don't know if I just throw a drive in there or if I have to have something extra like this http://www.newegg.com.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817997016 to hold the drive.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

3.  Going through the Pimp Your Rig thread I see a lot of different looking servers.  Some have mesh on the front of the server with fans and LEDs while others have a very clean and more professional look to them with simple drive bays lined up and down the front.  I am guessing to have one look versus the other depends mainly on the case and drive bays you buy?  Examples are below.

 

 

Clean and professional

 

 

 

 

 

Mesh with LED fans

 

 

 

 

Say I want to build my server with the LED fans showing like in this second picture, I would have to by proper drive bays to allow for this, right?

 

 

[GDub25]

So it sounds like I had everything figured right.  One thing I'm not completely clear on which you pointed out joshpond.  The slots in a case are 5.25", and a HDD is 3.5".  To get a HDD to fit into a 5.25" slot I have to have a drive bay.  The drive bay can be hot swap or non-hot swap, and the bay can be anything from a 1 to 1 up to 5in3, but I have to have something to hold the drive.  Correct?

 

Looking back at the Xigmatek case it appears that it comes with one 4in3, and I've looked at another recommended case (Nexus Prominent 9) that comes with two 4in3s.  I don't know if either of these bays are hot swap or not, but it seems like it would be best to use the drive bays that come with the case at first and then upgrade when the need to add drives comes.  I'm building the server with 12 drives in mind but I only have 8 at the moment.

 

I'm going to search the forum on this subject right now.  I'm sure there are multiple threads on "to use hot swap or not". 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joshpond]

So it sounds like I had everything figured right.  One thing I'm not completely clear on which you pointed out joshpond.  The slots in a case are 5.25", and a HDD is 3.5".  To get a HDD to fit into a 5.25" slot I have to have a drive bay.  The drive bay can be hot swap or non-hot swap, and the bay can be anything from a 1 to 1 up to 5in3, but I have to have something to hold the drive.  Correct?

 

Correct.

 

bjp999 mentioned something that I missed, hot swap does make it easier to add and remove drives which if you do have a few is an advantage.

 

You can always start with what is included and upgrade as you need so your plan sounds fine.

 

Josh

[daniel.boone]

It sounds like your well on your way. Once you have the hardware in hand you will see how it goes together quickly. Most of the time there are instructions included with your purchases. Unknowns are researched easily. Take your time and don't assume. Better you ask here.

 

A little friendly advice. If funds and space allow get a Antec 1200 case and no I don't work for them

 

Reason is while your present selection seems like a lot once you get rolling it will fill up. At that point your looking to add space. Your case selection allows 12 inexpensively. Once your maxed either you get hotswap bays or you buy a new case. The 1200 will allow 16 drives inexpensively.

 

Adding hotswap bays adds 100 bucks per 3 bays on any case. Personally if you need hotswap bays to increase drive capacity at that point you should be looking at a Norco. Now if the Norco seems so over the top consider this. I'm up to my 3rd case. Had I bought the 1200 upfront it would have been cheaper over the long haul. Those extra funds could have gone to drive purchases.

[GDub25]

daniel.boone, I'll consider that.  I am trying to plan for the future by allowing for up to 12 drives with this build, which at 3TB for each of my drives will give me up to 33TB of space.  That seems to be a crazy amount and I can't imagine every using all that, but then again I see people here saying how they've maxed out thier space after thinking it would be impossible. 

 

 

 

Speaking of 3TB drives, all my drives are 3TB Seagate and WD 7200 RPM drives.  Is cooling going to be such a big concern that I need to buy a case that will accomodate, or will I be able to keep cool in any case?  I notice there's quite a difference between the two cases I've listed above, the Xigmatek and the Prominent 9, in terms of ventilation.  The Xigmatek has vents and mesh all over it while the Prominent 9 has solid side panels and is supposed to be built for silence.

[daniel.boone]

Speaking of 3TB drives, all my drives are 3TB Seagate and WD 7200 RPM drives.  Is cooling going to be such a big concern that I need to buy a case that will accomodate, or will I be able to keep cool in any case?  I notice there's quite a difference between the two cases I've listed above, the Xigmatek and the Prominent 9, in terms of ventilation.  The Xigmatek has vents and mesh all over it while the Prominent 9 has solid side panels and is supposed to be built for silence.

 

7200 rpm drives are overkill of unRaid. If you have the drives already cool but don't buy them for unRaid. Best place for a 7200 rpm drive is as a cache drive after that parity.

 

I would not expect cooling to be a major issue in a 4x3 config. You should and may need to work on directing air over the drives. Side panel vents typically are closed off. My temps dropped when I did this to my Azza case.

 

On a side...I have a 3TB 7200 RPM Seagate which I had to short stroke (basically turn into a 2TB)  and return to v4.7. When testing various betas the 3TB Seagate would redball. I know of at least one other with the same issue. Once removed the v5 array functioned without issue. Not that this would happen to you but be careful. 3TB support is fairly new. Hitachi seems to be the 3TB drive of choice.

[GDub25]

I know the 7200 drives aren't needed with unraid, and that 3TB support is new and still in the works.  I started downloading movies and TV shows just a few months ago and thought I would just store them on external hard drives hooked to my computer.  So, I bought the biggest external hard drive I could, 3TB.  I filled that one up so I bought another.  About 2 months ago I learned how to stream the content to every TV in the house and I realized that I needed to get a large storage solution and quit cable/satellite.  That's when I stumbled across unRaid.  I already had two 7200 3TB drives, hard drive prices were sky-rocketing, and I found some 3TB hard drives on black friday for $99.  Bought them up.  Hopefully I can find the right hardware configuration to best suit using 3TB HDD and avoid some of the problems people have had.

[Johnm]

To answer your cooling question. I do recommend airflow across all drives.

 

While in day to day use the drives may not get to hot, when doing a parity check or data rebuild with a case full of 7200, the box will become a space heater. 7200 rpm drives tend to get hot.

 

I would watch your temps while doing your first parity build and see how that goes. if you start getting to say about 40c on any drive, you might think about better cooling.

[Rajahal]

You will also need a beefier power supply to power lots of 7200 RPM drives.  See the Power Supply Thread for recommendations.  All of my prototype builds are designed for green drives.

 

Also, if you need any 4-in-3s or other non-hot swap drive cages, PM me.  I've got a large collection of 3-in-3s, 4-in-3s, and 1-in-1s that come with the cases I use in client builds.  I still recommend hot swap bays for all the reasons that bjp999 already mentioned, but if you are trying to keep costs down then internal bays are the way to go.  The cheapest hot swap bays are the 1-in-1s like the Rosewill that you linked, though they will also limit your drive density.

[GDub25]

Thanks for the tips guys.  I'm feeling very confident that I will get this done without much trouble at all.  This forum has a great reputation and I really appreciate all the help so far.  

 

 

Raj, you warned me in another post about the power supply, so I've kept that in mind.  I appreciate you looking out for me.  I really would like to go with hot swap bays but am having trouble justifying the extra expense.  I'll decide soon what I want to do and I may hit you up if I decide not to use them.

 

I'm fine with adding fans to keep things cool.  Noise really isn't going to be a concern because the server will be in a media closet.  I just want to make sure that adding fans will be a believable solution should heat become an issue versus having to change cases to fix the heat problems.  I prefer the looks of the Prominent 9 case over the Xigmatek but it seems to have less ventilation, which I assume is because it's main purpose is to be as quiet as possible.  I did see a build in the compulsive design section where the Prominent 9 was used with 15 drives (3 Icy Dock 5in3s) and the builder didn't seem to have any cooling issues which gives me a fair amount of confidence.

[Rajahal]

I've also built both 9 and 15 drive servers using the Nexus Prominent 9 with no heat issues (haven't posted any pics yet, so you'll have to take my word for it).  The neither design requires extra fans, just the case's stock 120mm fans (one on the top, and the other I moved from the included 4-in-3 to the rear position near the CPU).  The case actually has excellent ventilation - the entire top area above the motherboard is perforated (room for two 120mm fans if needed), and the upper portion of the rear of the case is perforated as well (room for one 120mm fan).  Again, I've always built and designed my servers to run primarily green drives, so things could change a bit if you are packing 15 7200 RPM drives in there.  Even still, I believe the Nexus case has ample cooling for such a system.  You can always upgrade the fans to louder and more powerful models if you find the cooling to be inadequate.  You might also consider using the Supermicro 5-in-3 drive cages as they are the only model with a larger 92mm fan (the rest have 80mm fans).  I'm currently building one of each of these two servers for two different clients, and both look great and are nearly silent (I upgraded the fans in the Supermicro drive cages).

 

Side ventilation on cases is designed to cool CPUs and GPUs.  Since unRAID servers typically have very low power CPUs and GPUs, the side ventilation on certain case designs can actually do more harm that good.  It allows the rear fans to pull in air from the side of the case, instead of from the front of the case where the hard drives are located.  Many people like to block off their side vents with tape or cardboard in order to force incoming cool air to flow past the hard drives.  The Nexus case doesn't need such modification.

 

Here's a bit of justification for the hot swap bays: you plan to keep your server in a closet, which I presume means confined spaces.  If you don't have hot swap bays, then upgrading or replacing a disk means physically removing the server from the closet so that you have room to take out the internal hot swap bays, redo all the connections, and upgrade/swap the drive.  Hot swap bays will allow you to leave the server in the closet and just swap the drives, no hassle.  5 mins instead of 30 mins, and less risk of mismatching a cable, knocking one loose, or causing other issues.

 

If you are still on the fence due to the price of hot swap cages, consider using single hot swap bays such as this (note: this model has no HDD power/activity LEDs, which could be a pro or a con depending on your preference - I prefer them).  9 of these costs around $150.  They also save you the hassle of flattening the tabs between the 5.25" bays, they will fit in the Nexus case right out of the box.  Taking this route is the cheapest way to achieve easy hot swap bays, but it also limits your server to 9 drives instead of 15.  You could start with a few of these and see how you like them, then upgrade of 5-in-3s later as needed.

[GDub25]

Well after hearing that about the cases I'm really not concerned about heat problems anymore.  I didn't know that about the side vents being primarily for CPUs and GPUs.  I'm learning more and more as I go.  I did read through the drive cage review thread last night and took note that the supermicro 5in3s had a bigger fan. 

 

I may go ahead with the hot swap bays.  I seems that every build I see here uses them and I have to acknowledge there's a reason for that.  The "media closet" that I plan to put this in is actually a hidden room in the new house we're building.  It's much bigger than a typical closet, approximately 5ft x 8ft, so it won't be too cramped to work around in there but like I just mentioned, there aren't very many arguments around here for not using hot swap bays.  Using them is also coming into play when I am trying to decide what I would like the outside of the server to look like.  You mentioned using bays like the one you linked (link doesn't work by the way) but they don't have LEDs.  I really would like to have them because I think they look cool and I think they are probably useful to have as well.  I know looks are probably not that important in the scheme of things but hey, it's my first build and I want to have some fun with it. 

 

One of the pictures I posted above I believe has 9 single hot swap bays and I think it looks pretty nice.  I have considered going this route and like you point out, for around $150 I'd be set and that wouldn't be too bad.

[Johnm]

I'll agree with Raj,

 

I am running a Nexus Prominent 9 with a 15 drive hot swap configuration in hardware RAID for high performance..

Because of that, All drives are always running and generating heat. In addition to the drives, this box has a Q9550 and a beefy Graphics card for even more heat.

 

This case has no problems with cooling. my temps are very cool and the server is very quiet.

 

I am using Supermicro 5n3's with the stock fans turned down to about 1/3 speed using fan controllers installed inside the case.

I am considering just replacing the fans.

 

Because you said you are concerned about cosmetics, I'll show you what mine looks like: http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=12405.msg142540#msg142540

I have since added a 3rd 5in3 to round of the box.

[GDub25]

Hey, thanks for the pictures.  That looks very nice.  I really like the look of the hot swap bays with LED activity and power lights on the front like that.  I've got some good references of builds that I can replicate now when I'm able to make up my mind what I want.  Using the 5in3s would give me 15 drives, and I was only planning on a 12 drive build, for one to keep costs down and two because I don't think I would ever use that much space.  BUT, the case I like will hold 15, and the power supply I'm looking at will support 15...I'm looking like I may end up with a 15 drive server. 

 

I guess all 5in3s arrange the drives horizontaly from left to right, or can the cage be installed with the drives oriented with one on top of another?  Maybe to get the drives arranged with one on top of another you have to use 4in3s?

[Rajahal]

I fixed the broken link (instead of hitting ctrl-v, I must have just hit v!).  These hot swap bays are similar to the ones WeeboTech used in the photo of the 9 drive server you posted above.

[GDub25]

Another quick question.  What determines if you can run the server headless?  I will be sticking this in a closet, like most people I see here doing, and I don't know if there are any considerations I need to be aware of.  Remember I will be running Plex and probably SAB, sickbeard, and couchpotato.  I don't know how much intervention these will need once their setup, but will I have any access to them without a monitor and keyboard.  Also, I know that you can access the server through an internet browser, so what limitations are there in this method?  In what circumstance would this not be adequate and you need to hook up a monitor?

[dgaschk]

unRAID 5.0 supports hot swap. The array must be stopped but does not have to be rebooted.

[Rajahal]

unRAID 5.0 supports hot swap. The array must be stopped but does not have to be rebooted.

 

We're calling that 'warm swap'.  True hot swap means that the array doesn't have to be stopped (some other RAID hardware and software support this, but unRAID currently does not).