New guy and looking for opinions and advice.

[removesstains]

Hey,

 

Ok so i built a HTPC last fall. I have finally got it 98% complete. When your a real geek, you know nothings ever 100% complete. Anyway i was going to cancel my cable this week and start building a 2nd HTPC for my master bedroom. But then i started looking into the Boxee Box and thought "well this is stupid to build a 2nd htpc when i can just wait and get the boxee box for $199 and then stream content from my HTPC".

 

then that got me thinking, i only have a 500gb Hdd in my HTPC and it only has 330gb left and i haven't even started to upload content from some external hdd's i have (have 1 20gb 2.5 ide drive and a 60gb and 2 40gb 2.5 sata drives) and i would love to backup my dvd collection. therefore i came to the conclusion that i need to build a media server.

 

So i started searching around and found an old systm episode where they featured UnRaid and right off the bat i knew thats what i needed to build.

 

This is where i would like some advice if you were me. Should i stop cold turkey with placing anymore content on my HTPC HDD and build a server asap. I was thinking of going as cheap as possible and just starting w 1 1tb and then adding 2 more later. But then i figured i might as well get a 2tb instead. But i'm so low on cash right now. Therefore can i start with a 1tb drive and then add a 2tb later, or will that be a big headache when i add the 2tb since it will need to be the new parity drive? Also since i'm going for a cheap as possible option where's the best place to find out which Mobo's currently being sold will work?

 

I'll see what i can find using the search function of this forum in the mean time. However if i can order some stuff today, that would be cool. I would like to be able to order everything for a 1tb or 2tb server today and only spend around $300 and have the option to add more drives later. Its probably not possible, but i would love to be wrong.   

[aiden]

First off, welcome to the unRAID community!  This is probably one of the most sophisticated and helpful groups you'll ever meet.  Anyway, I strongly suggest you seek out your initial information in the wiki, as it's chock full of information and links to various threads.  Here is the hardware page to help you get started.

 

As far as the 1TB or 2TB question goes, unRAID is specifically designed to grow with you, so it really comes down to your budget and what you want to do.  I opted for 2TB drives off the bat and settled for only buying 2 (1 parity, 1 data), but it's really up to you.  As long as you ensure the parity drive is equal or greater in capacity than the largest data drive, you'll be fine.  When you change parity drives, you simply stop the array, pull the drive, insert a new drive, and restart.  UnRAID will then rebuild the parity on the new drive, which can take up to half a day on a 2TB drive.

[Rajahal]

I would actually recommend buying a 1.5 TB drive to start out, specifically the Western Digital Caviar Green WD15EADS 1.5TB 32MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive.  Whenever I buy a new hard drive for my unRAID server, my primary rubric is the bang-for-your-buck ratio, which is essentially how many GBs of space are you getting for every dollar you spend.  Consider this:

 

HDD

Price + Shipping

GB/$ (a.k.a. bang-for-buck ratio)

Western Digital 1TB$97.2710.28Western Digital Caviar Green 1.5TB$104.9914.29Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB$179.9911.11

 

The 1.5 TB drive is the clear winner.  Keep in mind that this is a moving target, a 'sweet spot' in hard drive prices.  Do these calculations everytime you need a new drive, then let that guide you to the new one.  Take this with a grain of salt, since I only compared Western Digital drives here.  I'm a big fan of WD's quality and I generally prefer to buy their drives, however, if some other brand goes on sale then I will deviate.  Choose by the prices and the quality, since unRAID doesn't care much about the drive's speed.

 

As aiden said, unRAID is designed to allow you to incrementally add and upgrade drives, so don't worry about buying a drive that is larger than your current largest drive.

 

I don't see any reason to rush into building your unRAID server.  If you want to make a purchase today, fine, but there is a lot of money to be saved by sitting back and waiting for the big sales.  February 15th is a holiday, so there will certainly be sales around then.  If you are in the US, sign up for Newegg's newsletter and they will email you sales several times per week.  You can also keep an eye on the 'Good Deals' section of this forum.

[aiden]

The GB/$ ratio is kinda golden.  I'm using Hitachi Deskstar 2TB 7200rpm drives, that I bought on sale at Fry's for $130 each, which actually puts them at 15.39 GB/$.  That was pretty sweet to me.    Even at their normal price of $150, you still get around 13.33 in your ratio, which is pretty competitive.  If you don't have immediate need, waiting for next month could introduce some big swings in that ratio.

[Joe L.]

If you are not in a hurry, you can shop the sales... That's what I do.

 

Currently newegg.com has

Seagate 2TB  5900 RPM 32MB Cache  $159.00  (free shipping)    12.57 GB/$

Hitachi 2TB 7200 RPM 32MB Cache  $149.00  (free shipping)    13.41 GB/$

 

Frys currently has the Hitachi 2TB 7200 RPM at $149.00, but you need to add shipping to that. 

 

In any case, if you are in the market for a new drive and can wait for the sales you are way better off. 

 

[removesstains]

Yeah this morning my trigger finger was very itchy, but after thinking it over. I'm going to try and see if i can find a friend or family member with an old Desktop that i can get my hands on cheap 1st. Then decide what to do next.

 

Rajahal, thanks for the tip on the GB/$ ratio. That will help for sure.

 

In the mean time i still decided to see what i could do on newegg if i was to order everything today. this is what i can up with.

 

Western Digital Caviar Green WD15EADS 1.5TB SATA $104

GIGABYTE GA-MA74GM-S2 $50

Crucial Vostro 2GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 $42

AMD Sempron 140 Sargas 2.7GHz Socket AM3 45W Single-Core $36

LOGISYS Computer Area 51 CS51WBK Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 480W Power Supply $35

 

It comes out to 273.94 with shipping. I think thats pretty good for starting out. Except, will that processor be powerful enough since its single core and that should be everything i need right? I have some extra 80mm fans lying around that i can throw in there if needed. I'm saving this to my wish list and will give myself a couple of days to see what i can find out 1st before i order anything. 

 

Oh yeah, I have a bunch of Micro SDHC's lying around and figured i would just use one of those with a USB adapter to run the Unraid OS off of. That Should work right? 

[purko]

HDD

Price + Shipping

GB/$ (a.k.a. bang-for-buck ratio)

Western Digital 1TB$97.2710.28Western Digital Caviar Green 1.5TB$104.9914.29Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB$179.9911.11

The 1.5 TB drive is the clear winner.

That calculation is not very correct, because it does not take into consideration these two things:

-- The cost of the server, together with the limitation of how many disk slots it can have in it;

-- The cost of the unRAID license.

When you take these into consideration, then the 2TB disks start to seem much more attractive.

 

 

[Rajahal]

HDD

Price + Shipping

GB/$ (a.k.a. bang-for-buck ratio)

Western Digital 1TB$97.2710.28Western Digital Caviar Green 1.5TB$104.9914.29Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB$179.9911.11

The 1.5 TB drive is the clear winner.

That calculation is not very correct, because it does not take into consideration these two things:

-- The cost of the server, together with the limitation of how many disk slots it can have in it;

-- The cost of the unRAID license.

When you take these into consideration, then the 2TB disks start to seem much more attractive.

Purko: You are correct, my method does break down a bit when used for an initial build for the reasons you mentioned.  It is primarily intended to guide a purchase when upgrading an already built server.  For example, say my 8 disk server is filled to its max capacity, but I'm out of space.  My obvious course of action is to start replacing my smallest drives, currently 500 GBs, with new large drives.  In this scenario, which new drive should I choose?  I would use the above method to determine that the 1.5 TB drive is the right choice.

 

Still, if you feel like going through the trouble, I would be interested to see an algorithm that accounts for all the variables you mentioned.  I'm considering building a new server soon myself, so I would probably even put it to use.

 

removesstains: My first thought on your parts list is to replace the motherboard with one that is

1) Not a Gigabyte, and

2) Has 6 or more onboard SATA ports.

Gigabyte boards (and only Gigabyte boards) have this little 'feature' called HPA that can cause a few headaches with unRAID.  Other users have reported that the newest Gigabyte boards have HPA disabled by default, but I'm not sure which ones exactly.  Therefore, I would just avoid them and avoid the trouble.  In any other application I generally prefer Gigabyte boards because of their consistent good quality, but in the case of unRAID they are problematic.

 

More onboard SATA ports are better, and the market is flooded with cheap boards that have 6 SATA ports.  Here are a couple (and I can vouch for Biostar and ASRock, though I prefer Biostar of the two):

Open Box: BIOSTAR A760G M2+ AM2+/AM2 AMD 760G Micro ATX AMD Motherboard (this is the board I am currently using in my server, and I think it is perfect for unRAID)

Open Box: ASRock A780LM AM2+/AM2 AMD RS780L (760G) Micro ATX AMD Motherboard

Open Box: BIOSTAR TA785GE 128M AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 785G Micro ATX AMD Motherboard

 

Keep in mind that those are all open box boards, meaning that they are discounted, but they may not come with all the normal accessories such as SATA cables.  You may need to provide those yourself.

 

That RAM is fine.  The CPU is an excellent choice, and actually the same one my unRAID server is currently running.  Low power + low cost = a winner.

 

The case you listed is probably fine, and it certainly is cheap.  However, the included PSU is likely to be crap.  I would substitute it with a good quality 80+ certified PSU such as a Corsair or an Antec EarthWatts.  Also, when choosing a PSU make sure it has a single 12+ V rail (both the ones I mentioned do).

 

As for a case, you may also want to consider the COOLER MASTER Centurion 590 .  This case is, without a doubt, the single most popular case in the unRAID community.  Look at its internal/external drive bays and you will see why.  If I were to build a new unRAID server today, this is the case I would use.  I would also populate it with these, as WeeboTech has done here.  This is certainly a more expensive route, but the results are undeniably awesome.

[purko]

HDD

Price + Shipping

GB/$ (a.k.a. bang-for-buck ratio)

Western Digital 1TB$97.2710.28Western Digital Caviar Green 1.5TB$104.9914.29Western Digital Caviar Green 2TB$179.9911.11

The 1.5 TB drive is the clear winner.

That calculation is not very correct, because it does not take into consideration these two things:

-- The cost of the server, together with the limitation of how many disk slots it can have in it;

-- The cost of the unRAID license.

When you take these into consideration, then the 2TB disks start to seem much more attractive.

Purko: You are correct, my method does break down a bit when used for an initial build for the reasons you mentioned.  It is primarily intended to guide a purchase when upgrading an already built server.

There is no practical distinction between building and upgrading. My reasoning still holds.

You'll normally build a 'new' server with just a couple of disks to start, then 'upgrade' by adding more disks, so there's no difference.

Either way you face the question about how many TeraBytes you can stick in that box.

 

Still, if you feel like going through the trouble, I would be interested to see an algorithm that accounts for all the variables you mentioned.

 

There's no special algorithm. You can figure out the total usable size from data disks,

then divide that by the cost of the server plus cost of all disks including parity plus cost of the license.

Only this way you can have a somewhat realistic estimate for gb/dollar.

 

And, mind you, I haven't even mentioned the cost of electricity so far.

For example, I have more than fifty ancient 200GB disks lying around on the shelves in the office...

I could easily build a 20-disk unRAID server with some of those.

Or, I could achieve the same result with just two 2TB modern green drives.

Think about the difference in electricity costs!  (FYI, I also put a Ultra-Low-Voltage CPU in my latest server)

 

Bottom line, your 'formula' doesn't really give you the real picture about the "most bang for your buck".

 

Purko

 

 

[lionelhutz]

FYI, the newest BIOS for that Gigabyte board has the option to turn off the HPA so it won't be an issue. Just boot the board and change/confirm the BIOS setting before attaching any hard drives.

 

Peter

[One2go]

FWIW there are a few other parameters to consider. 1st how long will you keep the data on-line, the longer you do, the larger the HDDs will have to be. Will you store TV shows, or view them and then delete that will also determine your total size. In my experience I tried the HTPC (Shuttle) approach with external SATA enclosure that lets you hot swap drives. I stored the drives in enclosures made for HDDs similar to the VHS cases. When my collection hit 14 drives I decided a different approach is needed. Keep the 14 drives for archiving and buy the 2TB drives to build a server. I will never have to second guess myself, damn should have bought the 2TBs now I am in need of space and Murphy's law might come into play as you replace the smaller drive with a bigger one.

 

Since most of my drives are Samsung 500 Gig & 1TB and I have had yet a failure, I stuck with the 2TB from Newegg when they were offered for $149 for a few days, bought 5 max allowed. Another factor to consider is how much do you value your data. Do you have content that is no longer available or was a onetime HD airing and is not available on optical media. Obviously this will effect for how long and where you store it. Finally the best reason for having an unRAID server is the ability to have all that content displayed not in file format but in thumbnails and other artwork that is easy to navigate.

 

Boys like their toys and the bigger the boys the bigger the toys.

[Rajahal]

There is no practical distinction between building and upgrading. My reasoning still holds.

You'll normally build a 'new' server with just a couple of disks to start, then 'upgrade' by adding more disks, so there's no difference.

Either way you face the question about how many TeraBytes you can stick in that box.

 

Perhaps we just see this issue from different perspectives, but in my view there is a large practical difference between building and upgrading.  When initially building a server, you method is obviously sound.  However, lets assume my server is at capacity with 8 drives.  These drives range from 500 GB to 1.5 TB.  I run out of space and want to start replacing the smallest drives, the 500 GBs.

 

Given the rate at which I fill up my drives (maybe 250 GB/month on average), I see no reason to upgrade my server until the hardware dies.  I should have no probably just replacing my smallest drives on a regular basis and keeping up with my data storage demands.  Therefore, I throw out the option of building a new server.

 

In this (I believe rather common) scenario, the server is already bought and paid for, and all SATA slots are created equal (negating any PCI bus bottlenecks).  I already have all the associate hardware, such as expansion cards and hot swap bays.  The only things left to change are the hard drives themselves.

 

In this scenario, I don't see any downside to using my simple calculation to guide you to a new replacement drive.  The 1.5 TB drives are currently in the sweet spot, and in a couple of months the 2 TB drives will most likely be there.  After that it will be the 4 TB, 6 TB, 8 TB, etc (assuming this half-step trend continues).

 

Granted, power consumption does come into play when dealing with older hardware, but in terms of modern hardware, I don't think its too much of a concern.  In most cases we would be talking about a difference of (at most) $5 per month.  It hardly seems worth it (to me, at least) to fret too much over that.  I buy green drives because they are the cheapest; the 'warm fuzzies' I get from having a low power server is just a fringe benefit.

 

Still, if you feel like going through the trouble, I would be interested to see an algorithm that accounts for all the variables you mentioned.

There's no special algorithm. You can figure out the total usable size from data disks,

then divide that by the cost of the server plus cost of all disks including parity plus cost of the license.

Only this way you can have a somewhat realistic estimate for gb/dollar.

 

And, mind you, I haven't even mentioned the cost of electricity so far.

For example, I have more than fifty ancient 200GB disks lying around on the shelves in the office...

I could easily build a 20-disk unRAID server with some of those.

Or, I could achieve the same result with just two 2TB modern green drives.

Think about the difference in electricity costs!  (FYI, I also put a Ultra-Low-Voltage CPU in my latest server)

 

This looks like an algorithm to me:

 

(total advertised size of disks in GB * 0.928)/(cost of server hardware not including disks + cost of unRAID license + cost of data disks + cost of parity disk + cost of cache disk, if used) = cost per drive slot in GB/$

[purko]

Perhaps we just see this issue from different perspectives, but in my view there is a large practical difference between building and upgrading.

...In this (I believe rather common) scenario, the server is already bought and paid for...

 

If you regard these as different scenarios, you are only deceiving yourself.

 

 

[purko]

Granted, power consumption does come into play when dealing with older hardware, but in terms of modern hardware, I don't think its too much of a concern.

 

Power consumption always comes into play.

 

Two of the modern green 1TB drives will still consume about twice the power of one 2TB disk.

 

Four 1.5TB drives will consume about 30% more power than three 2TB drives for the same usable space.

 

Imagine yourself for a moment being assigned the job of building a data center that will host 20,000 hard disks in just one room.

Will power not be a concern for you? 

 

Do you know that the cost of power can greatly surpass the cost of the hardware for its life time?

 

 

[Rajahal]

Purko, I believe we have completely hijacked and derailed this thread.  To rectify this, I have created a new thread dedicated to our discussion.  I have found our discussion interesting and educational, and I figured others might as well.  Hopefully you are OK with this.

[purko]

Rajahal, you feel like you just invented the wheel, don't you?  Write a book about it.

 

 

[Rajahal]

Haha, no, I don't claim any originality in my method, I'm sure it has been around long before I even ever got into this game.  I just thought our discussion was interesting, and I didn't want it to get lost at the tail end of this largely unrelated thread.