October 23, 201015 yr Hi, First off, sorry for the lengthy post, but I have so much on my mind trying to pin this build down, that I am finding it hard to know where to even start…. I am looking for advice on a home server build. My basic idea is for a box that runs unRaid and Microsoft Exchange, one of which will be hosted under VMware. Budget is preferably under $1000. I already have my unRaid license, data drives and case. I have a problem though. I have absolutely no experience with unRaid, Microsoft Exchange or VMware. I have been trying to some research and to be honest I am finding it rather challenging to narrow down what exact approach I should be taking in both software and hardware configurations. My understanding is: - for VM more Ram is good - u can assign cores, physical or virtual (hyper-threaded?) to VM’s - unRaid does not have high system requirements - for MS Exchange I require a validated hypervisor for the server virtualisation, such as Hyper-V (is that the same thing as Intel-VT?) - not all modern CPU’s support hardware virtualisation - a cache drive is a good idea for unRaid. Would an SSD make a good cache or will TRIM issues and lifespan become factors? Here's a list of my needs as I have listed so far: MOBO: ? Uncertain as to how much bottleneck I might encounter from using controller cards for my drive array on the PCI bus. unRaid doesn’t stripe, so I am currently figuring that and any cards with 4 or less drives on them on x8 PCI or better will be fine? I have also read that the onboard network controller can make a difference to performance, with Intel supposedly the better choice. RAM: 8GB DDR3 CPU: i5-661? Is this overkill? GPU: I imagine it will be an integrated solution OS: UnRaid and MS Server, which one do I run in VMware? Also, is WHS a valid alternative to MS Server? CASE: Antec 300 PSU: Dependant on hardware config. RAID Controller: ? Keep in mind the case can hold 11 drives :Record FTA television (in HD). This isn’t a must have, in fact it’s a last minute addition to my list (as in, added it just now). If it's feasible for a TV tuner then great! :(secure) Remote access/admin :File serve to 4-5 clients. The server will be based in my home office and in addition to holding all my work files, will also stream HD content over my home Gb network. :Air Video host (http://www.inmethod.com/air-video/index.html;jsessionid=75B8A249E8E91DEEDBC1060458319C55) :Run a torrent client :Provide data backup. I don't care so much about backing up my desktop(s), as all the important files will be held on the server once it is built. Redundancy should focus on work files and photos, other media and software can always be replaced. Although my partner tends to hold a lot of her Uni. files on her laptop, so perhaps some kind of automated backup option for her might be worthwhile. :Integrate with Microsoft Outlook (email, calendar and my iPhone being the three big things I need to sync). I would be open to migrating to another email/calender system if needed/advised. I don't think I want to do anything crazy with this machine, but I'm still very uncertain as to what the "good" hardware choices would be. I basically want a SBS/Media server. I am not overly bothered by cost within reason. I don't specifically need a "low budget" build, but I also don't like wasting my money. I'm really going with what the community recommends here . With that in mind, it would be nice to run something that is power efficient as this will be a 24/7 machine. Also, does anyone have any suggestions as to what I might do (or that a server should do) with my server that I haven't thought of? It has been a long time since I used a server in a work environment, and I would be more than open to any constructive thoughts. I am more than happy to come back and clarify any of the requirements and address any points raised. Thanks for your time.
October 25, 201015 yr I'm new to all this myself, but since nobody else has posted a response yet, I'll throw in my 2 cents. Since unraid is software RAID, it is probably not a good idea to virtualize it. I'm sure it could be done, but I don't think it would be wise. The software should sit as close to the hardware as possible, and the layer of abstraction provided by virtualization could cause some problems. That's just my opinion. I have no experience in this area, so take it for the inexperienced opinion it is, but I wouldn't want to be the first to do it. I did some quick research on the topic before I built my first unraid box and I think the experienced users also recommended against it, but hopefully one of them will tell you if that's true. I can't think of a technical reason why you couldn't do it. I have no experience with MS Exchange or running VMWare with unraid. I believe most users install tuner cards in other machines and have them record to their unraid array rather than trying to run a tuner/recording app with unraid. I haven't found experienced unraid users mixing much with their unraid install, but maybe I just haven't looked hard enough yet. It would be nice to run additional services on a 24/7 machine, especially one that is often underutilized. I'm sure other users will chime in with things they have done. If you haven't figured it out already, this forum is excellent. I think some users do have their favorite episodes downloaded automatically using additional software, but I haven't had time to look at that yet. There are some posts about it here somewhere. Good luck!
October 25, 201015 yr Author First, thank you so much for taking the time to provide some input, it is very much appreciated. And second, trust me, you are not inexperienced when to compared to me. The software should sit as close to the hardware as possible, and the layer of abstraction provided by virtualization could cause some problems. Ok, that sounds sensible. So maybe I can run my exchange server under a VM, and run unRaid native? It would be nice to run additional services on a 24/7 machine, especially one that is often underutilized. Precisely! I see no point to not be getting more use from this machine. Honestly, i will access it 4-5 times a week for work, and the rest of the time it will hold backups and media. I don't watch *that* much television, so surely i can do other things with this box. The idea of multiple boxes for such infrequent tasks grates against my sense of form vs function. I'm sure other users will chime in with things they have done. If you haven't figured it out already, this forum is excellent. I've been lurking for the last couple of days, seems like a very well informed and helpful community. I have been posting on a couple of other boards around the place, but for some reason i cannot get much support/advice. Perhaps I need phrase my questions a little differently, like...I don't know much about this sh*t, can anyone help me with some advice?...or perhaps not I think some users do have their favorite episodes downloaded automatically using additional software, but I haven't had time to look at that yet. There are some posts about it here somewhere. I am sure I'll track more info. over the next few weeks with my pro-lurking. It's early days for me on this build. I'm going overseas for a month at Christmas and although it would be nice to have it up and running before then, I'm not one to rush beyond research into regret. Good luck! Thanks!
October 25, 201015 yr You can indeed do all of this on one machine but it will not be an easy task to get set up. You will want to visit the customization section for installing VMWare server on unRAID. You will have to compile your own kernel and stuff, so be prepared. Run unRAID native and then MS stuff under a VM. An SSD to run the VMWare install off of would be a good idea, so long as you only use it for the VMWare install. Unless you a fast learner, expect to spend a weeks getting it all working. unRAID was not designed to be used like you are trying to use it. It is meant to be an appliance and simple to use for one thing and one thing only. There will be some reading to do, but you can get all you want on one machine.
October 25, 201015 yr You can indeed do all of this on one machine but it will not be an easy task to get set up. You will want to visit the customization section for installing VMWare server on unRAID. You will have to compile your own kernel and stuff, so be prepared. Run unRAID native and then MS stuff under a VM. An SSD to run the VMWare install off of would be a good idea, so long as you only use it for the VMWare install. Unless you a fast learner, expect to spend a weeks getting it all working. unRAID was not designed to be used like you are trying to use it. It is meant to be an appliance and simple to use for one thing and one thing only. There will be some reading to do, but you can get all you want on one machine. You make it sound easy and hard at the same time. I don't know if I should be scared or encouraged.
October 25, 201015 yr Author You make it sound easy and hard at the same time. I don't know if I should be scared or encouraged. I know how you feel. Guess I'll start with the suggestion on installing VM with unRaid. If When I get it up and running I'll write a complete guide, rest assured
October 25, 201015 yr I have wanted to get VMWare Server up and running under my unRAID install but never had the time to do it. I have been spending all my free time fixing stuff on the house I just bought and not had any free time to sit down and do it.
October 25, 201015 yr I think some users do have their favorite episodes downloaded automatically using additional software, but I haven't had time to look at that yet. There are some posts about it here somewhere. Recommend you research SABnzbd and Sickbeard. You can indeed do all of this on one machine but it will not be an easy task to get set up. You will want to visit the customization section for installing VMWare server on unRAID. You will have to compile your own kernel and stuff, so be prepared. Run unRAID native and then MS stuff under a VM. An SSD to run the VMWare install off of would be a good idea, so long as you only use it for the VMWare install. Unless you a fast learner, expect to spend a weeks getting it all working. unRAID was not designed to be used like you are trying to use it. It is meant to be an appliance and simple to use for one thing and one thing only. There will be some reading to do, but you can get all you want on one machine. I'm wanting to do some of the same things as the OP. Right now my unRAID server is way underutilized just serving media. I really want it to also function as a PVR. My tuner card has no analog support in MythTV so I'd have to use a MS OS. I've seen the posts about VMWare before but I suppose I'm a little hesitant. I have zero experience with VMs but I'm willing to put in the effort required to make it work however I'm concerned that what I'll end up with won't be "appliance like". I don't want to spend a lot of time on this if what I end up with is a semi-stable system. So is the effort required just needed to get it up and working initially and once it's runnung then it's smooth sailing from then on? Or will increasing the complexity make my unRAID server a constant PITA and require a lot of continuous tinkering? If it's the former then I'd be willing to give it a shot.
October 27, 201015 yr Author So I'd like to get some more hardware for this build, I don't have a spare machine that i can start mucking around with at home as yet. So far I have been looking at the Intel i5-661. According to Intel (http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=43553) the 661 supports VT-x. Is that the only real requirement for VMWare? I probably would have bought this chip already except for the fact that i keep seeing posts around the place stating that the 661 does NOT support virtualisation. Anyone care to clarify, or offer comments on my chip selection? I figured this chip was a reasonable balance between CPU grunt and power consumption. Assuming I get the 661, any mobo thoughts? I plan on hooking up 8-10 storage drives at this stage, with two additional drives dedicated to OS/Software. VMWare will definitely be running of a SSD as per an earlier suggestion, any need to run unRaid on other than a mechanical drive? Once I have a machine up and running I will be getting stuck right in to making this box useful. I'm going to be very (online) community dependant through the entire build I think, so c'mon gang, a little help here!
October 28, 201015 yr unRAID runs on a flash drive, so no spinning disk (or SSD) required there. Check out this new forum which is a great way to start and will save you a lot of time: http://lime-technology.com/wiki/index.php?title=Configuration_Tutorial Here's a great deal on a widely supported unRAID board (though it's probably not the best choice for your use unless you decide against the VMWare): http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=8496.0
October 29, 201015 yr Author That mobo is sold out. Snooze you lose Thanks for the links, given me some reading to do over the weekend...if the gardening doesn't kill me.
November 2, 201015 yr Author Ok, so the hardware issue is holding me up significantly. I can read until the cows come home, but without getting my hands dirty I will never get anywhere on this project. Hypothetically speaking- What hardware would you suggest for running: UnRaid VmWare MythTV backend(vmWare). Plan to later combine the front and backend on this machine once it is running. Microsoft Server 2008 + Microsoft Exchange 2008 (vmWare) I'm not too concerned at this stage how difficult it might be to get a machine such as this setup. My primary goal atm is to get an outline of what the minimum, and then ideal (read: reasonable) hardware requirements are. Worst case scenario, I scale back the role(s) of this machine to something that I can get to just *work*. At this stage these are my thoughts along with any concerns I have: CPU: AMD 1055T or i7 930. Enough grunt? Maybe it's overkill? Should I look to server chips like Xeon's? Also, does vmware support intel's hyperthreading - there is a lot of conflicting/confusing information out there...maybe it just depends on the version of vmware? RAM:12GB DDR3 (triple channel). Is this enough? Should I be looking at 16GB, or even 24GB +? MOBO: This one I am not sure on. Still looking. Will primarily depend on CPU and quantity of RAM. PSU: depends on final system configuration USB: unRaid install, can it be USB 3 or should I stick with 2? HDD1: SSD for VmWare HDD2: SSD for Microsoft Server + Exchange HDD3: SSD for MythTV backend (and later combined frontend/backend all things according to plan). HDD4: SSD for swap/cache. Not sure if this is needed. HDD5...n: Data drives + Parity CASE: Antec 300 TV tuner: Assuming PCI pass-through will work. Otherwise I will start looking at HDHomeRun. NIC: Possibly. Again there is conflicting/confusing information re: onboard NIC support for guests under vmware. Feel free to add anything I might have forgotten. I really appreciate the input and time. Thanks.
November 2, 201015 yr By the looks of things you are planning to build a pretty serious server. That said your case choice seems a bit odd. I'm currently using the 300 for my server but I'm only using it as a media server right now so it's more than enough for my needs. The 300 can hold a max of 11 drives if you use a 5-in-3. I'm assuming that 4 of the slots will be occupied by non-array SSDs - unless you're going to get creative with velco and/or duct tape. So that would only leave 7 slots open for your array - 6 data + 1 parity. That would give you up to 12TB of storage. Is that enough for your needs? You might consider a more flexible case like the Cooler Master Centurion 590 as it can hold up to 15 drives or the Antec 1200 which can hold up to 20 drives. I'm sure there are other options as well but I'm just wondering if the 300 is really going to be enough for you with all that you are wanting to do?
November 2, 201015 yr A budget on how much you would like to spend NOT including drives would be good to know. It will give others an idea on what components CPU: AMD 1055T or i7 930. Enough grunt? I would go the Intel route with a board from Supermicro (something like this). It is def pricey but you are going to be spending quite a bit on SSD's already. Maybe it's overkill? With the VMWare stuff you want to do it will not be overkill. Should I look to server chips like Xeon's? You may gain ECC capabilities but I don't think your benefit would be that great. Also, does vmware support intel's hyperthreading - there is a lot of conflicting/confusing information out there...maybe it just depends on the version of vmware? This I can not answer as I have not read up enough on VMWare to know. RAM:12GB DDR3 (triple channel). Is this enough? Should I be looking at 16GB, or even 24GB +? You are going to be running unraid (2GB should be good) then you can split the rest among the VM's. I would say that 12GB should be enough. MOBO: This one I am not sure on. Still looking. Will primarily depend on CPU and quantity of RAM. See my above post for the motherboard. There are probably cheaper options but that board has everything you need and should work great with unRAID. Supermicro makes a very nice motherboard. PSU: depends on final system configuration This PSU should fit the bill nicely. It is modular and has a single 12V rail so there is no worry about balancing drives and all that. USB: unRaid install, can it be USB 3 or should I stick with 2? Stick with a USB 2 stick. You will get almost no benefit out of a USB 3 stick. HDD1: SSD for VmWare HDD2: SSD for Microsoft Server + Exchange HDD3: SSD for MythTV backend (and later combined frontend/backend all things according to plan). Putting these all on SSD drives is probably a very good idea. I would look at something like this to put into one of the 5.25 bays to maximize the space you have in the case. The above mentioned drive should probably be OUTSIDE or your array, unless you want them parity protected. If you have them inside the array then you will probably run into performance issues because of parity protection. You will have to manage the mounting/sharing/etc of the above yourself. Not overly hard to do but it is an extra step. HDD4: SSD for swap/cache. Not sure if this is needed. An SSD for cache is mostly pointless and will probably cause the SSD to die even quicker. Just go with a normal 2.5in HD that you can put in the 4th slot of the above linked hot-swap bay. HDD5...n: Data drives + Parity Go with a 3-in-2 unit like this in the top bays to maximize space. Then you can figure out how to use the rest of the space for HDD. CASE: Antec 300 TV tuner: Assuming PCI pass-through will work. Otherwise I will start looking at HDHomeRun. If you can get the pass-through working then you should be good to go. NIC: Possibly. Again there is conflicting/confusing information re: onboard NIC support for guests under vmware. The above mentioned board has intel NIC's on it so you should be fine and not have to add anything. Feel free to add anything I might have forgotten. I really appreciate the input and time. Thanks. You will probably need one of these cards along with some breakout cables to hook up all the drives. Hope that helps a little bit and gets you started towards what you need.
November 2, 201015 yr unRAID is a 32bit OS, and thus limited to 4G memory (someone correct me if I am wrong). It is possible to run unRAID on a full Slackware install, and I think I saw someone saying they were running on a 64 bit build. That would allow you to use more memory. I cannot speak to the effort required to get this up and running, nor the effort to upgrade with each new release.
November 2, 201015 yr unRAID is a 32bit OS, and thus limited to 4G memory (someone correct me if I am wrong). It is possible to run unRAID on a full Slackware install, and I think I saw someone saying they were running on a 64 bit build. That would allow you to use more memory. I cannot speak to the effort required to get this up and running, nor the effort to upgrade with each new release. unRAID has PAE support built in so it can see more than 4GB of RAM.
November 2, 201015 yr unRAID is a 32bit OS, and thus limited to 4G memory (someone correct me if I am wrong). unRAID does support greater than 4GB of physical memory (ie. RAM) * It does this by supporting Intel's PAE (Physical Address Extension) features which are in all Pentium Pro and newer CPU's. * The PAE extensions allow up to a maximum of 64GB of physical memory that the CPU (not a process) can address.
November 2, 201015 yr I thought PAE had limitations. It does, it is a tiny bit slower.Is VMware able to utilize that memory? I have no idea. I'd google "VMWare PAE Linux" and see what you get. I did exactly that... the answer is apparently yes, but you may have to enable the option for the VM to use it: http://kb.vmware.com/selfservice/microsites/search.do?language=en_US&cmd=displayKC&externalId=1011708
November 3, 201015 yr Author A budget on how much you would like to spend NOT including drives would be good to know. It will give others an idea on what components Under $2k would be good. I would go the Intel route with a board from Supermicro (something like this). It is def pricey but you are going to be spending quite a bit on SSD's already. That board looks nice. Seems like a reasonable price to me. See the end of my post for an alternative. Putting these all on SSD drives is probably a very good idea. I would look at something like http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816710003&cm_re=2.5_hotswap-_-16-710-003-_-Productthis to put into one of the 5.25 bays to maximize the space you have in the case. The above mentioned drive should probably be OUTSIDE or your array, unless you want them parity protected. If you have them inside the array then you will probably run into performance issues because of parity protection. You will have to manage the mounting/sharing/etc of the above yourself. Not overly hard to do but it is an extra step. Yes, I had assumed that the SSD installs would sit outside my unRaid array. I am not concerned about software challenges at this point int time. So long as I can be certain I meet system requirements and compatibility I am happy (for the time being). It is def pricey but you are going to be spending quite a bit on SSD's already. I think the price si fairly reasonable for that mobo and I may not be spending as much on SSD's as you think. I already have an Intel x-25M 80GB available. So I'd be looking at something like this: X-25M 80GB - Microsoft Server + Exchange $0 OCZ Onyx 32GB SSD - VmWare $79 OCZ Onyx 32GB SSD - MythTV $79 Not too bad imho . By the looks of things you are planning to build a pretty serious server. That said your case choice seems a bit odd. I'm currently using the 300 for my server but I'm only using it as a media server right now so it's more than enough for my needs. The 300 can hold a max of 11 drives if you use a 5-in-3. I'm assuming that 4 of the slots will be occupied by non-array SSDs - unless you're going to get creative with velco and/or duct tape. So that would only leave 7 slots open for your array - 6 data + 1 parity. That would give you up to 12TB of storage. Is that enough for your needs? You might consider a more flexible case like the Cooler Master Centurion 590 as it can hold up to 15 drives or the Antec 1200 which can hold up to 20 drives. I'm sure there are other options as well but I'm just wondering if the 300 is really going to be enough for you with all that you are wanting to do? The Antec 300 was bought some time ago as a cheap server solution, well before I decided to get serious about this build. It's still sitting in the box. 12TB should be sufficient to meet my storage needs for a while yet. You're wrong about how many drives you can fit in a 300 though 6 standard 3.5" bays + 5 in 3 + floor mounted 2.5" (300 has specific mount point) = 12 drives. Add two of these and you now have room for 14 drives. You would end up with 9*3.5" + 5*2.5"=14 Alternatively, you could add three of these and fit 16 drives. Works out as 9*3.5" + 7*2.5"=16 As another option, you could add one of these and fit the 11*3.5" + 5*2.5"=16. This does require a spare PCI slot thought (from what I can tell). I'm sure there are other equally valid combinations. Really, if you wanted to combine masses of 2.5" and 3.5" drives in your system, you could quite readily fit 20 drives in this case. Not suggesting this is a good idea, but it is certainly possible Hope that helps a little bit and gets you started towards what you need. Some useful advice there prostuff, it's nice to get a little confirmation on some of my thoughts. A a matter of interest, my current desktop is an i7-930, EVGA X58 SLI Micro, Seasonic X-Series 650w, 6GB DDR3 (of some sort, I don't recall...and I'm lazy). Could I retire this rig to my server? The onboard NIC is realtek afaik, so this might be an issue. Otherwise I am just as happy to start organising a purchase list for my parts and proceed from there. Thanks everyone for the help thus far.
November 3, 201015 yr look through the Hardware Compatibility Page for the NIC and see if it is specifically listed. Most Realtek NIC's seem to work fine. Intel is usually best, but I don't see anything that sticks out and will not work with that board. The 9 onboard SATA are nice, but also see if something besides a graphics card will work in the PCI-e slots.
November 18, 201015 yr Author I haven't forgotten about this thread, and nor is this a "vapor-build" ...I'm just busy as heck with work atm. AS I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'll be away over Christmas. Will update mid to late January when I get back and have a chance to really sink my teeth into this project. Merry Christmas all!
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