Which Intel 13900 to choose

[pH-Wert]

Hi there,

 

i am a newbie and i want to set up a complete new unraid machine.

Primary (24/7) usage will be a NAS with Plex and other stuff running permanently and 2-3 days a week create music with a VM (Digital Audio Workstation) or another VM for deejaying.

The latency is hopefully not the issue (at least connecting devices directly to a PCIe USB Port), that is what i read here in the forum  

My question is now to get the BEST CPU for my adventure (For audio: high frequency first, second Mulitcores, that is what i read in the internet  )

That is why i would like to go with the best (or a good) performance/Price ratio for the CPU AND the lowest (compared to the maximum perfornace) overall permanent 24/7 (idle) energy consumption

 

Very simplifed:

The AMD CPUs what i read are not as good for unraid and compared to energy consumption. 

Xeon is what i also read not so preffered for audio and it needs ECC and this is not necessarily needed.

That is why i think going for Intel i9 is best?

 

My (un)educated guess would be an Intel 13900T as there the TDP would be around 35Watt compared to the 125Watt of the 13900K. That would mean saving 2.4 KiloWatt per day, assuming a price of about 30cents a KiloWatt, would save approx. 260 Euro a year. Is this calculation correct?

 

The KS is too expensive, the performance of the 13900T and K is (https://www.cpubenchmark.net/compare/5154vs5143vs5022vs5055vs5160/Intel-i9-13900T-vs-Intel-i9-13900F-vs-Intel-i9-13900K-vs-Intel-i9-13900KF-vs-Intel-i9-13900KS) 

13900                           T    |   K

Single Thread Rating   4097 | 4689

CPU Mark                   51210 | 60024

TurboSpeed              5.3GHz |  5.8 GHz

 

Price is nearly the same for both.

I do not want to overclock my system (which might make the server unstable).

 

Can i reduce via BIOS (or software) the idle energy consumption of the K down to the value of the T when i just use the 24/7 services, but go high to the full power of the K when i use the VMs or i need the power for the 24/7 services e.g. transcoding videos in plex? Or must I go for the T to have the low idle consumption and save the energy. 

 

Any suggestion, comment, feedback, ideas are very welcome!

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by pH-Wert

[Vr2Io]

K type CPU also draw low power when idle/light load. You also can limit its TDP if BIOS support that.

 

For me, must K type. My desktop ~30w and Unraid ~40w average, all is K type CPU.

 

Pls search PL1 ... PL2 .....

 

TDP:35 W

PL1:35 W

PL2:106W

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/cpu-specs/core-i9-13900t.c3001

Edited January 30, 2023 by Vr2Io

[pH-Wert]

Thanks @Vr2Io,

 

I am a bit confused, the PL1/2 value is quite new to me. The PL2 Tau Limit of the T is 28 seconds

 

The TDP, PL1 and 2 for the K is

TDP:125 W

PL1:253 W

PL2:253 W

PL2 Tau Limit: Unlimited

 

I thought the TDP is used to calculate the right size for your power unit. Looking at the PL2 for the "K" of 253 Watt and Tau unlimited time, I would understand that you need to calculate 253 Watt for the CPU (instead 125W)?

Also the time of the T of 28 seconds, I thought, is the time to allow the maximum time for the PL2 power usage, in total this would mean that the T uses approximately less then half the power then the K.

How do I see the minimum need? Generally i do not mind, if I need the full performance to use and pay more power, but i am interested to have a low energy consumption for the time i am not using the VM and other services like plex.

 

If you say, your K in your Unraid System takes an average of 40 Watt:

• Did you do some special settings (undervolting) of your K? If yes what do i need to look for in the mainboard (which I still need to choose)
• You say your K needs 40 Watt. How could i approximate the minimum need for the T to compare it properly? Could I assume the T is around 20Watt (using my above assumption of "half the power usage")
• What is your overall energy need of your system in Watt/h?

May I also ask you for your complete hardware list to understand your performance setup?

 

[JonathanM]

6 hours ago, pH-Wert said:

I thought the TDP is used to calculate the right size for your power unit.

No, it is only relevant for heatsink calculations. It's a measure of maximum allowed heat creation over time, not efficiency.

 

For Unraid, you want the CPU to be able to do the most work possible in the shortest period of time, so all the rest of the hardware can go into low power mode as soon as possible. If you limit the CPU to only use a portion of its ability, you will keep the rest of the system awake and consuming power so your overall consumption for a given job will be higher.

 

As an example, consider transcoding a video file. While the job is running, RAM is active, hard drives are spun up, etc. If you limit the amount of processor power available, it will still require the overall same amount of calculations to finish the file, but take much longer to finish, keeping the consumption of all the other parts higher longer, and still use the same amount of CPU energy, just spread out over more time.

 

Kneecapping your CPU with the T version will cause long term power consumption to be higher on a highly optimized system.

 

Better for overall consumption is limiting the drive count to the absolute minimum, likewise the memory chip count. Also make sure you have enough motherboard SATA ports, addon HBA's are power hogs.

 

1 16TB disk drive is way more efficient than 4ea 4TB drives.

[Vr2Io]

10 hours ago, pH-Wert said:

I would understand that you need to calculate 253 Watt for the CPU (instead 125W)?

Yes, thats why I said K also draw low power in idle/light load, even always in high load, you can lower PL setting to limit overall power draw, then power draw between K and T won't have much different.

 

10 hours ago, pH-Wert said:

if I need the full performance to use and pay more power

That also why I choice K type CPU, it allow me have great configuration possibility and cheaper then T type CPU. Let say it turbo ( draw huge power ) in 28s then it will limit PL to something you config, this 28s won't affect too much on the electricity cost too much. 

 

10 hours ago, pH-Wert said:

Did you do some special settings (undervolting) of your K?

No, I never add / under voltage, I hate too complicate tuning.

 

10 hours ago, pH-Wert said:

You say your K needs 40 Watt. How could i approximate the minimum need for the T to compare it properly? Could I assume the T is around 20Watt (using my above assumption of "half the power usage")

I never have T type or green type CPU, so I can't show you the different, but my 7x24 Unraid with similar config. draw almost same power with AMD 2400G, 1700, Intel 9600k, 9700k ... so I don't think under same work load will half the CPU power usage with T type CPU.

 

  

 

A graph may more informative, this is my little 7x24 unraid with 10G switch and some device power usage in these two day.

- 9700k

- two 3.5 SATA ( always spindown )

- One NVMe and one SATA SSD

- 10G NIC

 

Highlight

- Sometime it will draw high then 100w

- No kwh/h reading can provide

 

1. I perform parity check ( two disk ), floor at 66w

2. & 4. It is usual power usage

3. This ( yesterday ) was I try turn-down a Windowns VM for CCTV recording to docker version, as result it only save less then 3w although CPU usage greatly reduce, this really means CPU power draw in some situations not a big dealas , also as @JonathanM mention, many factor will affect the electricity cost, pls don't only focus on CPU.

 

For my desktop, it is 9600K+10GNIC+NVMe+SATASSD and provide Windows XTU ( support K type CPU only ) FYR ( I never hard tuning, only PL1 set 66w )

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Vr2Io

[pH-Wert]

@JonathanM and @Vr2Io,

thanks for both of your posts.

Your arguments seem to make very much sense  thanks!

 

Vr2lo: Why do you set PL1 to 66W?

 

So both of you would say the overall energy consumption for the K and the T in IDLE mode is pretty much the same (+/- 5W), even without undervolting (by using just the standard settings)? And you would recommend the K instead of the T?

 

As I wont to spare out an extra PCIe graphic card, but still would want to use two 4K Monitors (just "office like" applications) simultaneously as extended Desktop inside windows, what kind of motherboard (ATX or eATX?) could you recommend me for the 13900K, also keeping in mind to have enough SATA ports (minimum 6 better 8 ) and PCIe for future updates? 3? better 4, or 5?

I think i definitely need an extra USB PCIe for the low latency (audio interface and midi controllers) music requirements and a 10GB Network PCIe to be future ready (or could amon Board 10GB be good enough to be shared from unraid and VM running?).

An extra PCIe graphic card might come sometime later (whenever i have an additional use case or my 2 Monitors do not work on standard Motherboard).

Any PCIe needed/recommended/foreseen?

 

The system should be as silent as possible, especially in 24/7 mode, as it is in my office, close to my desk (i need to connect the audio interface, Midi controllers and the Monitors directly to it (i guess  ).
What CPU cooler would you then recommend me. I understand I have to look for a cooler dealing with 125 Watt TDP? Any additional fans or recommended cases?

 

DDR5 is mandatory I would guess, but what speed would you recommend? Is ECC needed? As I also run a file server on it, but this will not be heavily used.

 

And I believe last but not least, the power supply? Any recommendations to support energy efficiency, but enough power to feed the 13900K (and 2 M.2 (PCIe) SSD and 4HDD, and maybe a future graphic card (but not high end))?

 

Oh, many questions. Thanks already for replying.  

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by pH-Wert

[Vr2Io]

1 hour ago, pH-Wert said:

Vr2lo: Why do you set PL1 to 66W?

Because in normal usage, it always low then that and I want to guard the power if one day it suddenly draw abnormal power which I don't aware.

 

1 hour ago, pH-Wert said:

overall energy consumption for the K and the T in IDLE mode is pretty much the same (+/- 5W), even without undervolting (by using just the standard settings)? And you would recommend the K instead of the T?

Yes, I will choice K if someone have point out a sold reason why not for my use case.

 

1 hour ago, pH-Wert said:

(whenever i have an additional use case or my 2 Monitors do not work on standard Motherboard).

Why, they use DP ? I have two GT710 which have 4 HDMI per card, this really good for attach monitor. If 3D power really not need, pls try found out similar GPU.

 

 

https://amzn.eu/d/5I1w5Il

 

1 hour ago, pH-Wert said:

What CPU cooler would you then recommend me. I understand I have to look for a cooler dealing with 125 Watt TDP? Any additional fans or recommended cases?

Noctua was my favourite, excellent quality and reliable, it also cover all my different CPU in one. In some build, my Noctua not sufficient cover the TDP, but this fine because I apply PL1, so no trouble.

 

1 hour ago, pH-Wert said:

And I believe last but not least, the power supply? Any recommendations to support energy efficiency, but enough power to feed the 13900K (and 2 M.2 (PCIe) SSD and 4HDD, and maybe a future graphic card (but not high end))?

My current little Unraid and desktop was FSP SFX 350w and 450w, due to all light load, so PSU efficiency not a key factor. And borh really cheap.

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07T2G4XWQ?ref_=cm_sw_r_apan_dp_HTGFBJJ4Z6HGVE4H4PWJ

 

1 hour ago, pH-Wert said:

PCIe for future updates? 3? better 4, or 5?

More always better.

 

Last, I would recommend you use 2 unraid insead all in one. For me, my large Unraid use 150w up to 500w+.

The little one 7x24 minimum config with a very cheap mobo can do that, it is a small version matx with 3 slot (two are open end x1 ).

 

https://www.amazon.com/B360M-HDV/dp/B07BMVGW1Q/ref=mp_s_a_1_45?content-id=amzn1.sym.4d2857d0-578a-447e-ad82-f39435a4c278%3Aamzn1.sym.4d2857d0-578a-447e-ad82-f39435a4c278&keywords=asrock+b365m&pd_rd_r=303a4ff6-1a22-48b0-9e80-c44b059690f2&pd_rd_w=JXola&pd_rd_wg=po6rn&pf_rd_p=4d2857d0-578a-447e-ad82-f39435a4c278&pf_rd_r=9MTT8FJWGD4C137ZEKRK&qid=1675155254&sr=8-45

 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by Vr2Io

[Vr2Io]

2 hours ago, pH-Wert said:

What CPU cooler would you then recommend me. I understand I have to look for a cooler dealing with 125 Watt TDP? Any additional fans or recommended cases?

May ref. below post or others to found which mobo suit your need.

 

 

[pH-Wert]

On 1/31/2023 at 10:00 AM, Vr2Io said:

Last, I would recommend you use 2 unraid instead all in one. For me, my large Unraid use 150w up to 500w+.

The little one 7x24 minimum config with a very cheap mobo can do that, it is a small version matx with 3 slot (two are open end x1 ).

From a separation of usage and an energetic perspective that makes absolutely sense, but buying an i9 and just use it 1-3 days a week for a few hours would make me feel bad.

At the moment i am only having 10+ year old CPUs, motherboard and RAM which even is too bad for unraid (plex, NAS, ...). I am also having an old Synology 412+ which is now really slow and did his job. So I would need to buy another hardware for a new "unraid" NAS.

I always like the idea of having one great thing instead of two good things  

[Lolight]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:56 AM, pH-Wert said:

What CPU cooler would you then recommend me. I understand I have to look for a cooler dealing with 125 Watt TDP? Any additional fans or recommended cases?

 

Is ECC needed?

 

And I believe last but not least, the power supply? Any recommendations to support energy efficiency, but enough power to feed the 13900K (and 2 M.2 (PCIe) SSD and 4HDD, and maybe a future graphic card (but not high end))?

For a CPU cooler selection consult the videos below.

Fans - Arctic or Noctua

Case - depends on the number of HDDs and case size preference. I like the Fractal Node 804.

ECC is not "needed".

For power supplies consult this link - choose a high-end, tier A, single rail model from the list. https://cultists.network/140/psu-tier-list/

 

 

[pH-Wert]

I am warming this/my thread up as I am turning myself in circles with respect what motherboard to buy.

 

Assuming i am going for the 13900K (which is around 500€ at the moment) as i want to use the system the next 5-6 years and be kind of future proof (knowing that this thing is going to idle a lot - but stepping down to i7/i5 and saving maybe 250€ on an overall +2000€ system does not make too much sense to me, or should it?).

 

So now what is really killing me, that many here are using/recommending the Supermicro and the W680 with ECC?

This board is rarely to get and i am not 100% sure if I really need the expensive/slower ECC RAM? Also that the new DDR5 have "On-die-ECC" which is not the same but still better than the old world (and i never realized problems in the past with Non-ECC, but maybe i did not see the errors ). I would be starting with a 64GB DDR5 possibility to upgrade at a later stage.

 

So first question:
ECC and W680 or on-die ECC and Z790

 

I am aiming at a Z790 boards (ATX), with a 2.5Gbit LAN & minimum 6 SATA on board (2 parity and 3-4 Storage - if neede i could upgrade to a bigger hdd when i run out of storage) and 2x M.2/M-Key (PCIe 4.0 x4).

Is there a reason (if not using high end graphic cards) to have more than 2x PCIe 5.0 x16?

 

Second Question:

Which Mainboard to choose (also W680 or other boards if you have a reason  )

 

Thanks a lot in advance for all your thoughts!

Edited June 5, 2023 by pH-Wert

[Lolight]

On 6/6/2023 at 9:03 PM, pH-Wert said:

So now what is really killing me, that many here are using/recommending the Supermicro and the W680 with ECC?

This board is rarely to get and i am not 100% sure if I really need the expensive/slower ECC RAM?

That's the decision for you to make.

This exact question has been asked and debated many, many times over the years.

Here is a couple of relevant discussions that might help in your decision-making process.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeServer/comments/6g3rap/is_ecc_ram_essential_for_a_home_server/

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeServer/comments/gh8f7i/is_ecc_memory_really_needed/

Edited June 7, 2023 by Lolight

[pH-Wert]

Thanks Lolight,

 

reading it and summarizing it roughly:

* ECC is good, but not necessary in Home Environments -> Motherboards rare, ECC expensive and 2% less performance   (https://www.crucial.com/support/articles-faq-memory/ecc-vs-non-ecc)

* ECC with on-die is supporting on a "small" (single bit) level to compare the data, before going into the RAM, with the data leaving the RAM -> Improved and better than without ECC

* Use good SATA cables, to not corrupt the data -> Any recommendations which to use (and which definitely not)?

* Have a backup available, not at the same place where your data is -> Is OneDrive or any other Cloud Storage good enough to keep the "backup" of your important stuff?

 

Do i understand correctly the problem of using Non-ECC RAM:

• On any write operation data stored on my hard disk could be corrupted. For instance when i backup my photos from my camera over USB (or network) onto my NAS data pool (e.g. just one single bit could "fall" from 0 to 1 or vice versa). As it rarely happens, the likelihood is that 1 picture e.g. out of 100k pictures might be a bit scrambled or worst case not readable anymore. The error would be then discovered when I open up the picture again and i might see the problem or it does not open at all.
• Read operations, might not be as critical when the data is not used to write it somewhere else?

Is there a way/mechanism/tool -also and especially- in unraid to verify the checksums of the files you want to keep safe or at least reduce the risk? For example monitor the "photos" folder?

 

 

[Lolight]

21 hours ago, pH-Wert said:

* Use good SATA cables, to not corrupt the data -> Any recommendations which to use (and which definitely not)?

* Have a backup available, not at the same place where your data is -> Is OneDrive or any other Cloud Storage good enough to keep the "backup" of your important stuff?

Is there a way/mechanism/tool -also and especially- in unraid to verify the checksums of the files you want to keep safe or at least reduce the risk? For example monitor the "photos" folder?

Just don't use any old leftovers or cheap SATA cables of uknown origin and you should be fine.

And if that does happen a bad cable will get flagged by the drive's SMART and reported as UDMA CRC errors.

 

It's recommended to have multiple backups of important data, preferably following the 3-2-1 strategy.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Lolight