March 30, 200818 yr Does Tom check these forums? I've emailed but no reply as yet. I'm a bit stuck.. can't do anything with the tower at the moment. :'( I check all the time - don't always answer all posts when I know the answer will be provided by the community. (BTW - thanks to "the community" for all the help provided on these message boards - it is greatly appreciated, and there are very few more helpful communities out there IMHO.)
March 30, 200818 yr As you might suspect, the "Restore" button does not restore anything. It instead Stores a NEW configuration based on the currently assigned drives. If you had a parity drive, it would also proceed to generate a new set of parity data based on those same currently assigned drives. Joe L. "Restore" means "Restore a fresh new configuration - as if this were a brand new system - ie, Restore the initial default configuration.". Joe, I know you don't like this term - neither do I . I also don't like "Init" or "Initialize", or "Reset" or "Clear" either for this function, but open to other suggestions...
March 30, 200818 yr Tom, At least one person tried to use the "Restore" button to "Restore" data to a failed disk they had replaced. Instead, it caused them to lose their data, as it wiped out their old parity and went about calculating parity based on their current configuration. As far as I can remember, it is the only time an unRaid user lost data. It is too easy for a user to incorrectly assume at the time of a failure that the "Restore" button is how to proceed, especially if English is not their native language: A google search for the definition of "Restore" came back with these definitions: # The process of replacing data from a backup taken previously. www.titan.co.nz/Amigaak/AA050118.htm # To brining data back into its original or former state. It is the opposite of archiving and deleting. www.donaldfish.com/Articles/A101B.htm # The process of retrieving files from a backup if the original files are lost or deleted. www.uen.org/lessonplan/upload/6948-2-10837-Networking12.doc All three of those definitions indicate data would be restored... not that a new disk configuration would be set. As far as wording for the button... How about "Store initial configuration of disk hardware" and in the associated descriptive text you can indicate it "Stores a fresh, new configuration of disk hardware, and calculates new parity based on the currently assigned disks on the devices page." Joe L.
March 30, 200818 yr "Restore" means "Restore a fresh new configuration - as if this were a brand new system - ie, Restore the initial default configuration.". Joe, I know you don't like this term - neither do I . I also don't like "Init" or "Initialize", or "Reset" or "Clear" either for this function, but open to other suggestions... I have to agree, all of the mentioned terms are misleading in some way, or too long. The best I can come up with is the 2 word 'Reset Configuration', which is certainly not perfect, but works for me, is not as open to mis-interpretation. I am sure that someone can come up with better.
March 31, 200818 yr How about "Set Disk Configuration" or "Set Device Configuration" for the text on the button?? I don't like the label on the button starting with "reset" since you are almost always changing the configuration when pressing the button. You are "setting" a configuration, not "resetting" it to a prior configuration. This makes more sense to me since as far as I know, the "Restore" button is only used to delete a physical disk on the devices page after un-assigning it from a logical slot on the unRaid array. Its only use is when removing a drive from the array where you do not intend to replace it immediately and want to compute a new set of parity values without the removed drive. I think I prefer the latter (Set Device Configuration) a tiny bit more since, the button is only used after making changes on the "Devices" page on the management web-page. The descriptive text to the right of the button should indicate something like: "Set Device Configuration" should only be used after making a change on the devices page to un-assign a disk. Pressing it will calculate parity based on the remaining assigned drives and any previous parity data will be over-written. Joe L.
March 31, 200818 yr I also think that the label should be changed. "Re-Store" (as in store again) make some sense, but "Restore" makes people think "Backup/Restore" and is confusing. I also read the thread where the person pressed "restore" to try and get a drive rebuilt. (I think it was one of those where he was using a drive that was larger than parity.) I like "Reset". Many electronic devices have a reset button that resets it back to factory defaults. It is short and sweet. (I thought of something more dramatic like "Destroy Parity". Now THAT would discourage misuse!) Whatever label is chosen, I suggest something like this be included in the description: "Pressing will IMMEDIATELY invalidate parity and make rebuilding a failed drive impossible (until parity is rebuilt on the new configuration). Use with caution!" If it doesn't already, the documentation should recommend running a full parity check prior to doing things that would require pressing this button. That would give unRAID a chance to correct any errors BEFORE they are encountered in rebuilding parity on the new configuration.
March 31, 200818 yr I like "Reset". Many electronic devices have a reset button that resets it back to factory defaults. It is short and sweet. In this case, there is no "factory default." The only time the "restore" button should be available is AFTER a change has been made to the "Devices" device assignment page. That is why I suggested the labels above. Perhaps "Save Device configuration" would work. I don't think the restore button can be used if a disk is missing or invalid unless that disk is un-assigned. (I thought of something more dramatic like "Destroy Parity". Now THAT would discourage misuse!) Even Tom might be afraid to press it if he gave it that label Whatever label is chosen, I suggest something like this be included in the description: "Pressing will IMMEDIATELY invalidate parity and make rebuilding a failed drive impossible (until parity is rebuilt on the new configuration). Use with caution!" Good idea. If it doesn't already, the documentation should recommend running a full parity check prior to doing things that would require pressing this button. That would give unRAID a chance to correct any errors BEFORE they are encountered in rebuilding parity on the new configuration. Another good idea. Only possible when all disks have valid status, not possible if there is a failed drive on the array. Basically, only show the "restore" button (whatever it is eventually labeled) if the current disk configuration on the device assignment page has changed from the prior device assignment. (disks have been added, deleted, or changed) simply swapping disks between the "data" slots should not even enable it. That alone might keep a novice user of unRaid from pressing it when a disk had failed. They would first have to un-assign the failed drive on the devices page... (probably not something they would be inclined to do if their data was on it... but then... novice users might try anything ) Joe L.
March 31, 200818 yr "Restore" means "Restore a fresh new configuration - as if this were a brand new system - ie, Restore the initial default configuration.". Joe, I know you don't like this term - neither do I . I also don't like "Init" or "Initialize", or "Reset" or "Clear" either for this function, but open to other suggestions... how's about REFRESH or RESTART although "Set Device Configuration" sounds good too.. or perhaps "Force Device Configuration" Should this button be on the Device configuration Page then?
March 31, 200818 yr Trying to squeeze a complex topic into a button label is an exercise in frustration. I think the right answer combines suggestions in this thread and adds more ... 1. The button should itself NOT take any action, but instead take you to another screen 2. The screen should fully describe what it will do, examples, the dangers, alternatives, etc. 3. A confirm button should be at the bottom 4. On the screen should be links to more documentation and this board Cheers, Bill
March 31, 200818 yr Trying to squeeze a complex topic into a button label is an exercise in frustration. I think the right answer combines suggestions in this thread and adds more ... 1. The button should itself NOT take any action, but instead take you to another screen 2. The screen should fully describe what it will do, examples, the dangers, alternatives, etc. 3. A confirm button should be at the bottom 4. On the screen should be links to more documentation and this board Cheers, Bill I think this is a really good idea, regardless of what text goes on the button. Putting the button itself on the "Devices" page is not a bad idea either, since a change has to be made there for the button to be used anyway. (assigning a new disk to a logical slot in the array, or un-assigning a disk from a slot) Joe L.
March 31, 200818 yr If software were designed by committee, we'd never get a logon screen designed, much less an entire system! I think we need a unified recommendation to Tom that is not a bunch of work for him. If we could agree on a word or two on the button, and some text underneath, and leave the mechanics as is, maybe Tom would make the change in the next beta. If it becomes a big redesign with new screens and moving buttons, we may likely be living with "Restore" for a while. Joe L., you have been the biggest voice for this change. Why don't you take the feedback and finalize the recommendation. Hopefully everyone will just say "Perfect" and Tom will finalize and make it happen.
March 31, 200818 yr If software were designed by committee, we'd never get a logon screen designed, much less an entire system! Having been involved in the specification and development of many software development projects over the past 25 years or so, all I can is that it is best if the committee is kept reasonably small. Sometimes it is not possible, as the critical needs of every user of the system must be accounted for, therefore input must be gathered from a large base of users. In this case, we have feedback from users who wondered "when should I press the 'restore' button?" It is as large a grop a users as we can get on the "committee." In nearly every system, on 10-20% of the time is actually spent coding. The rest is in design and testing. It is tough to design a system... Tom has done really well with most of his user-interface done without prior input from the user-community. We basically requested an improvement. He then designed the user-interface. Sometimes his solution is nearly perfect. (The devices assignment screen is pretty darned nice and fairly intuitive even for non IT types) Sometimes his solution is not perfect. (The placement of the "Refresh" button adjacent to the "Stop" button, and no "Are you sure?" when clicking the Stop button is not perfect.) Sometimes the solution is clear to him, but not to some "users" of his software... ie. the "Restore" button. I do not have a degree in Human Factors Engineering, but worked on projects with team members who did. a tiny bit of their knowledge, over time, sunk in. They would observe users interacting with our software in their lab and analyze how smoothly things went. After a while you pick up when users of your software are confused. Many times, the "tech" label means nothing to a business person. Example: I worked on a medical case management system where the design specified "Only the person entering a "case note" can modify it" Seemed pretty clear to the analyst who wrote the specs. When it came time to go through user acceptance, the case notes screen failed. Why, because the "case note" could be modified by the person who entered it. Huh??? What was intended was that medical case notes could only be appended, and only by people assigned to that case. Once a note was entered, it could not be modified, ever. Medical lingo, vs. computer lingo. We easily fixed their screen, but it was only after they made it clear our analyst did not understand their business. In their business, medical records are never edited after the fact. (No, I was not the analyst. I was one of the developers) Tom is a probably tech person... probably not a PHD in Human Factors. But he does get to observe users interacting with his product, and make improvements as needed. Short-term.... I suggest re-labeling the button, leave it where it is... change the descriptive text if possible to better inform users. Medium Term... Only enable the button when array is stopped if the configuration is changed on the devices page. Long Term... Have it lead to an intermediate page that first describes what it will do, and second asks for confirmation (yet another button we have to label ) I think we need a unified recommendation to Tom that is not a bunch of work for him. If we could agree on a word or two on the button, and some text underneath, and leave the mechanics as is, maybe Tom would make the change in the next beta. If it becomes a big redesign with new screens and moving buttons, we may likely be living with "Restore" for a while. Joe L., you have been the biggest voice for this change. Why don't you take the feedback and finalize the recommendation. Hopefully everyone will just say "Perfect" and Tom will finalize and make it happen. Ah yes, scope creep... been there... hard to make any deadline Make a recommendation... sure, as good an idea as any... I like "Set Device Configuration" best of all those offered so far, but I'm open to alternatives. Clearly Tom gets final say. To change the wording and test the change (ensuring the spelling is correct) will take minutes. To read through this thread... hours The other changes are more complicated... there are more important items to include in the next beta release. (NFS, UPS Support, Devices outside of array,alternative File systems, NTFS-3g, Built-in-email alerts, etc) Tom needs to edit the roadmap. Some items are done, and can be crossed off... Joe L.
March 31, 200818 yr I'll vote for "Set Device Configuration". I do think it would be more intuitive in the Devices page, although people may tend to set all the slots, then click the "Set Device Configuration". So Maybe "Reset Device Configuration" or "Reset/Force Device Configuration" Getting a lil off topic here. As far as features in the Laundry List. I think it would be best if we take on the task of integrating NUT or APCUPSD into the distribution via package. As someone mentioned, there are so many versions of UPS out there. If we can handle creating a solid package and it works weel, I'm sure Tom will eventually include it in the distro.
April 1, 200818 yr "Set Device Configuration" - works for me. Suggested explanatory text: "Pressing will IMMEDIATELY invalidate parity and make rebuilding a failed drive impossible (until parity is rebuilt on the new configuration). Press only when required (hyperlink here). Use with caution!"
June 15, 200818 yr As it turns out, the "Restore" button is not needed unless you are removing a disk from the unRAID array and do not intend to replace it. If you are replacing a parity disk, you only need press the "Start" button. When replacing a data disk, you only need press the "Start" button. If you move your disks around, you only need press the "Start" button. If you assign a new drive to a previously unused slot in the array, you only need use the "Start" button. The only time you need to use the "Restore" button is if you remove a (potentially failed) disk from the array, and do not intend to replace it soon, and want to calculate party without it, so your array can run protected without it. This might occur if it is an older small drive you no longer need, or if "You have a drive failure, you order a new drive, but it will not arrive for 2 weeks and you have sufficient space on the other data disks for the data on the failed drive. So, you copy all the data from the failed drive to the working drives, and then un-assign the failed drive, and then use the restore button to calculate parity without it." Now, the process of copying your data and re-building parity without it might leave you with the array un-protected from a second failure for 8 or 10 hours, but that is better than being unprotected for 2 weeks. When the new drive arrives, it can just be added to the array. So... I think you can probably not even enable the "Restore" button unless a drive slot that had been previously assigned has been un-assigned. Oh yes, re-naming the button as "Set Initial Configuration" is still a good idea. I have not heard any better suggestions to date. Joe L.
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