Looking for lots of hardware advice....

[Juano11]

Ok, just finished having my 60 yo house pretty thoroughly wired with ethernet cable...at no small cost....

 

I'm planning on putting up a rack in the basement to distribute everything (CATV, Telephone, Data/media, etc...)

 

I want a massive, rack-mounted unraid server to serve as both a media server (for lots of audio & video) and as backup/archiving for my wife's home-based law practice.

 

We are never going to move (it's an awesome house).  So, although we don't need it right now, I'd like to go ahead and build in a lot of expansion possibilities.

 

However, I'm having some trouble getting started on my unRaid build.

 

I want lots of hot-swappable drives to make future upgrades/failures as painless as possible so I've decided to go with the Norco 4020 case: http://www.google.com/products?hl=&q=norco+4020&scoring=p.  It's more expensive than I was hoping for, but it has the hugeness and convenience that I wanted.

 

Browsing the unRaid hardware WiKi, I decided to go with the Supermicro MBD-C2SEE-O mobo. Essentially because it offers lots of SATA ports and because it was labeled as a "preferred unraid board"

 

This is where I've reached an impasse...I can't convince myself that this is the board that I'm looking for... 

 

I feel like it is more expensive than what I need, but I do like the number of SATA ports, and the "compatible" label helps.

 

I'd like to keep the build below what I could buy from LimeTech, otherwise what is the point besides the rackmountability?  Around $800 would be good (plus or minus a 2TB parity drive) including the unRaid Pro license.  I can go above that, but I want something cheaper than the Limetech pre-built systems or else I'll just buy from them.

 

I know that this doesn't give you much to work from, but I'm stuck at the MoBo and can't get past that to select more stuff until I make that decison.

 

Many Thanks

 

Juano

[terrastrife]

get a 4220, it costs more but its easier to cable manage.

 

if the norco you say is too expensive, maybe spending 4x more on another brand, any other band is more in your price bracket?

[purko]

I want something cheaper than the Limetech pre-built systems or else I'll just buy from them.

You can't possibly build the same system any cheaper than the Limetech's price. (pro-key included).

But if you're talking about something different and cheaper, then there are many options.

...otherwise what is the point besides the rackmountability?

From what you've described so far, that's your only point: the rackmountability.

 

[Juano11]

Thanks guys for taking the time to reply. 

 

I know that I didn't give you much information to work from.  My wife was calling me to dinner as I posted so I had to cut it short.  Additionally, in the interim, I realized that I need to do a little system building refresher on my own before I get too far into selecting components.  I've built my own computers before, but usually at 2-5 year intervals.  Each time, as I get started, I realize that I'm behind the curve on advancements/new products that have been made since my last build.  Additionally, I've always built highish end desktops before so this is a bit of a new frontier for me.  Finding the right price/performance balance seems much different for this application versus a gaming rig...

 

That being said, I can elaborate...

 

The Case

 

Initailly, I hoped that I could find a case for $75-$150 and add some drive cages for expansion and hot-swappability.  But, the drive cages were more expensive than I anticipated.  At $50-$100 a pop, the drive cages would quickly add up to the price of one of the Norco cases that were purpose built for this application. Interestingly, my cases always end up being more expensive than I expect...vanity I guess...

 

Regarding the 4020 vs 4220.  The price difference between the two isn't really an issue.  When trying to decide between the two, I came across this post: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1479621.  That indicated that the 4020 probably ran a little cooler than the 4220, and that the airflow/fan noise was enough of an issue that someone had had a custom fan plate fabricated to deal with it.  The post also led me to believe that the price difference between 5 multilane SATA cables was significantly different from that of 20 regular SATA cables, but I see now that that is not the case (maybe $10-$20).  Plus, if the fans are so loud that I decide to replace them, that will be at least another $20.

 

I can do some of my own cable management with some $0.01 zip ties.  So, I'm not sure what other benefit I would be getting from the additional $40-$100 I'd be spending on the 4220.  Finally, I've never worked with multi-lane cables before.  In the unlikely event that one should fail, wouldn't that potentially put four of my drives out of service until I replaced it?  With single SATA cables, one cable fails, one drive fails.  Am I wrong?

 

All of that being said, I think that I'm still looking at the 4020, unless there is some other benefit to the 4220 that I am overlooking.  Or, if someone knows of a rackmount case/drive cage combo that comes in significantly below the 4020 price that I have not come across yet, I'd be interested.  I want the ability to have 16-20 drives.  I want to be able to easily remove/replace drives in the case of failure without needing to remove the whole case from the rack.

 

MoBo etc...

 

Yeah, a big topic, I know, but from my experience, your choice of motherboard really dictates what you can/can't choose for the rest of the build.  I've generally built my stuff based on Asus, Intel, OCZ, and ATI hardware.  There's a bit of brand loyalty there, but I my primary motivation with those desktops was not to keep the price down, it was to get max performance without going completely crazy with the cost. 

 

Having dealt with some high performance boards in the past, I know that compatibility & reliability can sometimes be issues.  You can accept them knowing that your building an enthusiast PC, but I'd like for this machine to be as rock solid and as forgettable as possible.  I want it to work, and pretty much work all the time

 

I was looking at the Supermicro MBD-C2SEE-O because it's got the SATA and PCI slots to accommodate up to 20 drives but also because it was listed as an "official" board.  The Asus P5B-VM DO also has the same qualifications, but is more expensive.  There was some mention that someone had trouble booting from USB into unRaid with the SuperMicro board.  I assume that this was an isolated problem, or a problem that is easily resolved...correct?

 

Why do I want this?

 

The #1a & #1b...  I want to use it to digitize a large DVD and future bluray collection for streaming throughout the house.  Right now, I only need about 8-10TB of storage for this, but I am a digital hoarder and hate to delete anything, so that will only grow.  We also have 4 PCs that I want to be able to backup on site.  Finally my wife needs some way to backup and archive documents, e-mail, etc for her work as required by law for her work.

 

So the performance of the machine needs to range from streaming HD video, down to simple networked backup.

 

I guess that I'm not even sure exactly what I'm asking from you guys.  I guess that I'm asking if my initial few component choices are leading me down a more expensive and/or less reliable solution than I need.  I don't really understand what kind of computing power I really need for this build.  I know that I don't really need a fast processor, but I don't want to underpower it...  Do I want 8GB of DDR3 Ram?  Probably not.  But is DDR2 acceptable? 4GB of DDR3?  I'm stuck.  Making gaming rigs is much easier, get the fastest compatible component that is not ridiculously expensive and chances are you'll be happy. 

 

Finally, I could do and AMD MoBo/Processor if that would get me to the same place for less money.

 

All apologies for the long post.  Thanks again for your time to consider my questions.  In the end, I'll be able to figure this out, but I'm looking for a little guidance to get me out of the gate.

 

Finally #2, I know that I can't build the SAME box as Limeware would sell me for less but none of theirs appear to be rackmountable and I'm looking for similar functionality, not necessarily identical performance.

 

Thanks again to everyone for their time,

 

John

[Kaygee]

Buy a Limetech server and rackmount it.

 

The LC is MD-1510/LC and 17.6" wide so should be do able. A decent sheet metal or engineering company should be able to fabricate something suitable.

 

Or buy a rack shelf and simply lay it on it's side. A couple of blocks screwed into place to stop it sliding and a plate for the front of the rack with a remote mounted power switch would look sweet.   

 

Only problems I can foresee is first check with Tom to make sure side mounting wont affect the warranty. Second is you will need to re work the power switch which is currently on the top, which would then become the side.

 

 

[Rajahal]

The Case

 

I can do some of my own cable management with some $0.01 zip ties.  So, I'm not sure what other benefit I would be getting from the additional $40-$100 I'd be spending on the 4220.  Finally, I've never worked with multi-lane cables before.  In the unlikely event that one should fail, wouldn't that potentially put four of my drives out of service until I replaced it?  With single SATA cables, one cable fails, one drive fails.  Am I wrong?

That's a very reasonable point, one I hadn't considered.  Your logic is correct - if a SAS (multi-lane) cable were to go bad, you could be potentially looking at 4 drives out of commission until you can replace that cable.  Since you have clearly thought it out, I think the Norco 4020 is the correct choice for you.  Many people here use that case and love it.

 

MoBo etc...

 

I was looking at the Supermicro MBD-C2SEE-O because it's got the SATA and PCI slots to accommodate up to 20 drives but also because it was listed as an "official" board.  The Asus P5B-VM DO also has the same qualifications, but is more expensive.  There was some mention that someone had trouble booting from USB into unRaid with the SuperMicro board.  I assume that this was an isolated problem, or a problem that is easily resolved...correct?

The SuperMicro is a great mobo, and definitely recommended if you plan on going up to 20 drives.  I believe the boot from USB issue was isolated.  I think it is safe to say that SuperMicro is regarded as the most reliable brand 'round these parts.

 

I know that I don't really need a fast processor, but I don't want to underpower it... 

Unless you plan on running a bunch of add-ons (such as video encoding or VMs), yes, you DO want to underpower the CPU.  Buy the cheapest, slowest, least power-hungry CPU that your motherboard will take.  unRAID uses the CPU so little that it really won't matter.  I've run unRAID on a single core 1.6 GHz CPU before, and the performance was just the same as it is on my current CPU, a single core 2.7 GHz.  I 'upgraded' only because the latter uses up less power.

 

Do I want 8GB of DDR3 Ram?  Probably not.  But is DDR2 acceptable? 4GB of DDR3?  I'm stuck.

Go for budget RAM, not gaming grade.  You may want to spring for ECC RAM if your motherboard supports it, since it is supposed to be more reliable.  I just use generic old economy-grade stuff, though (see my sig).  If you are running unRAID stock, 1-2 GB is fine.  If you want to run add-ons (especially torrents), then go for 4 GBs.  DDR2 and DDR3 are about the same price at the moment, so that doesn't really matter, just go with what your motherboard likes.  As a general rule, I would recommend getting a single 2 GB stick of RAM.  That way you can always add a second stick if you decide you want to upgrade to 4 GBs.

 

Finally, I could do and AMD MoBo/Processor if that would get me to the same place for less money.

Personally, I'm an AMD fan, so I would say that yes you can.  I love the AMD Sempron 140 for unRAID budget builds.  However, again, I would let the motherboard guide you here as well.  If you want reliability, then go for the SuperMicro and an Intel CPU.  The new i3 CPUs are super low power as well, so they are great for unRAID as well.

[Juano11]

Many thanks Rajahal.

 

That was exactly the guidance that I was seeking.

 

As my build continues, I'm sure that I'll have another question or two, but your reply had exactly the direction that I was looking for.

 

Thanks Again

 

John

[captain_video]

If you're looking for an inexpensive setup to get you started, I built mine based on a Gigabyte GA-MA69GM-S2H motherboard.  It allows booting from a USB flash drive, has onboard video, and has both a PCI-E x16 and x4 slot, both of which can support a Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 8-port SATA controller.  With the 4 ports on the motherboard, this gives you up to 20 SATA ports.  The motherboard is a couple years old but you can probably find one on ebay dirt cheap.  They were inexpensive even when new (around $50-60, IIRC).  Toss in a couple of gigabytes of RAM and an AMD CPU with an ample power supply and you'll have a nice unRAID server that won't break the bank.  Mine has been running strong for over two years and counting.

[ohlwiler]

I own a Supermicro C2SEA, which is nearly identical to the C2SEE. It is a wonderful efficient motherboard. It will run with E3x00 processors which is the most miserly processor to run in it. If you are going to eventually go to 20 drives you need to decide which sata cards to use. I bought a Supermicro SASLP 8-port PCIe board to use with my motherboard. Note that this card uses SAS cables, so your plan to avoid expensive cables would be defeated. Your other option is the Adaptec 1430SA. The Adaptec is a 4-port PCIe board that costs about the same as the Supermicro, but uses normal sata cables. With the Adaptec board you will not be able to get to 20 drives all on the PCIe bus. Those are the only good options, others are much more pricey.

 

I had problems with my SASLP dropping drives. The drivers for the SASLP are just not as robust as the drivers for the Adaptec or the PCI-X Supermicro SAT2. For this reason I switched just recently to a Supermicro X7SBE motherboard. In my case it made sense financially because I got a good deal on the board and I already had a Supermicro SAT2-MV8. I thought I lost 1.2T of data because of problems I had with my SASLP, I was able to recover, but it gave me quite a scare and it made stability my primary concern.

 

If you choose to get a Supermicro board, note that memory that runs at above spec voltages is not supported - cross OCZ off your list.

 

Good luck on your quest, getting 14-16 drives is easy, getting 20+ is much harder. Note what those that are sporting rigs with that many drives are running for their motherboard.