tdallen Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 Hi - I think I may build a new desktop PC. It's the sort of PC that goes along with someone who builds their own unRAID server, though. By that, I mean it will sort of be a Swiss Army Knife - able to do lots of things that someone who supports PCs might need to do: I will want to run Windows I might want to run it under a hypervisor I might want to play with a small, test unRAID setup under there... I will want to be able to pre-clear drives under that unRAID setup I will have people asking me for help that requires quickly plugging in their hard drive to my PC to back it up to my larger unRAID server I will use it for ripping so a full size 5.25" external bay is required for an optical drive. I might run some limited server type functions that are better suited to running under Windows I could easily see pulling parts out of it to help build a future unRAID server etc. I'd probably go mini-ITX but microATX is possible too. I appreciate quality components. - I thought this case looked interesting - http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811139033. What do you think about cases for the role I described? - I haven't shopped for a power supply in a while. I don't think I need anything large, 300-450 watts sounds like more than enough. I'd like it to be quiet and reliable, though. Thoughts? - I've usually used Asus motherboards. Maybe something like this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132123? I'm open to ideas. Do mini-ITX boards usually only have 1 x16 slot and nothing else? - I'll use a Haswell Core i3 or i5 processor though I'm open to a Xeon (need another motherboard). - I'll throw in 8-16GB of RAM from the motherboards HCL, probably Crucial or G-Skill. - I have a Bluray drive. - I'll throw in a 250GB or so SSD, probably Samsung. Do you have another thoughts on how you'd approach this? I'm most interested in ideas for cases, quiet power supplies, and motherboards. Thanks! Link to comment
Chugiak Posted January 8, 2015 Share Posted January 8, 2015 My first thought on that case was that it didn't have enough storage bays. The Newegg page suggests only 1x5.25 and 2x3.5, but thare are also 2x2.5 bays according to Corsair product page. Depending on your usage model that may be enough, but if you want to be able to protoype unRAID I would consider something that will allow three 3.5 devices. On power supplies you're probably thinking in the right power range, although that would depend on your ultimate CPU choice, and whether or not you also want to be able to test out GPU cards. Staying at the high end, ie 450 W, might give you that flexibility. For small form factor you definitely want some degree of modular cabling. Must have single 12V rail. If you want quiet and reliable, you'll want 80 Plus Bronze or better. Brands that will meet those requirements wil include Silverstone, SeaSonic, and FirePower (formerly PC Power and Cooling). Once you've settled on a case do as much research as you can to ensure the PSU you're considering will have cables that fit the case well. Link to comment
tdallen Posted January 9, 2015 Author Share Posted January 9, 2015 You're right about the case, unless I use a laptop drive as part of the array... The LIAN LI PC-Q28B has some more space and would work. CoolerMaster makes some interesting cases, too - the Cooler Master Elite 130 and the Cooler Master HAF Stacker 915R. I really like the idea of the externally accessible drive bays the Corsair has, though. It's a pretty common use case for a friend to show up with a laptop that is in trouble. I like to back the drive up to my server before I start tinkering (and the laptop may or may not still have a functioning network connection) - an externally accessible drive bay is nice in that case. Do you know of any other mini-ITX or micro-ATX options with accessible drive bays? Link to comment
Chugiak Posted January 9, 2015 Share Posted January 9, 2015 I expect a USB docking port would be a lot more convenient, as you wouldn't be tying up a drive bay for the rare instance when you need to drop in a guest HDD. Link to comment
tdallen Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 I suppose that's true. I've been reusing cases for so long that I don't have one with USB 3. USB 2 is pretty painful to backup a guest HDD so I prefer a direct SATA connection, but I'm guessing USB 3 changes that. I still need a new case, at any rate. Link to comment
tdallen Posted January 10, 2015 Author Share Posted January 10, 2015 Not sure how I missed this the first time through, but the LIAN LI PC-Q08B might work very well. Link to comment
garycase Posted January 10, 2015 Share Posted January 10, 2015 A few thoughts .... Given the desire to easily pop-in drives to your server (for pre-clearing, etc.) the Q25B is hard to beat, with it's 5 very nice hot-swap bays. The Q28B has a bit more space, but more traditional drive mounting bays that are far less convenient. It does, however, have a 5.25" bay that you could mount one of these in, to give you a single hot-swap bay for 3.5" drives: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817998041&cm_re=hot_swap_bay_for_5.25_inch-_-17-998-041-_-Product Personally, I'd get a docking unit that supports e-SATA => this will let you easily connect either 2.5" or 3.5" drives. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153071&cm_re=hard_drive_dock-_-17-153-071-_-Product You can either use a motherboard with an eSATA port on the I/O panel; buy a small add-on card with an eSATA port (this would expand the # of SATA ports you'll have); or just run a SATA -> eSATA cable to one of the internal SATA ports [ http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10226&cs_id=1022603&p_id=8792&seq=1&format=2 ] The Q08B is a very nice case once you've got it set up, but is far less convenient than the Q25B or Q28B for frequent drive swaps. It also doesn't have the nice "pop-off" side panels like the Q25B ... you have to remove 6 small screws to take the side panel off [and if you want to take off the right-side panel, you also have to disconnect everything (both internally and externally) from the motherboard, as it comes off with the panel. It makes a VERY nice system, but is a real pain for modifications. For what you've outlined, I'd use a Q25B, a 300w SFX power supply [This is an excellent choice: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256097 ]; the mini-ITX motherboard and CPU of your choice; and the eSATA docking unit I noted above. If you want an optical drive, just use an external USB unit, since the Q25B doesn't have a 5.25" bay. Or forego the hot-swap slots and use the Q28B. Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 ... I will use it for ripping so a full size 5.25" external bay is required for an optical drive ... I had missed that. If you don't want to just use an external drive, then you'll need to go with a Q28B or possibly the Q08B. Note that the Q08B is a VERY nice case ... I've used it for a couple builds, including the most recent system I built for my wife; but it is NOT a "modification friendly" case ... and if you're planning to frequently attach/remove drives, I'd just get a dual-drive e-SATA dock so that can be done externally. Something like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153112 [You could also use a USBv3 unit, but for diagnostics and recovery I've found that direct SATA connections are often better than using USB bridge devices] Link to comment
tdallen Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 Thanks, both Chugiak and Gary. Gary, I think you are right about the Q28B - it seems like a much slicker design if you need to get in and out once in a while. A little larger than I would have liked, but worth it. I think that's the case I will be going with unless I mount the optical drive externally. I think you're both right about keeping guest drives external if possible. Unfortunately eSata ports don't seem very common on ITX boards. I'm having trouble finding a board that has both eSata, flexible display connector options, and at least a couple of chassis fan connectors (I like motherboard controlled fan speed for reduced noise). Seems like I may have to give in on one of those - but that Monoprice cable would do the trick. Gary, while I really like the idea of an SFX power supply in these small cases, the one you linked does not appear to be modular. Is the smaller size a good trade-off for a modular setup? Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Gary, while I really like the idea of an SFX power supply in these small cases, the one you linked does not appear to be modular. Is the smaller size a good trade-off for a modular setup? SFX units work FAR better in these cases than ATX units. The 300w (ST30SF) and 450w (ST45SF) non-modular Silverstone units are both excellent choices ... I've used both of these many times for various builds. The ONLY cable on them that you aren't going to be using in most builds is a PCIe aux power cable, which you can either wrap in a small bundle with a tie or just cut it off with wire snips (that's what I do). There are also two very nice full modular SFX units: the 450w ST45SF-G and the 600w SX600-G if you prefer not to have those extra cables to deal with. Note that even if you just wrap the extra cable the unit will still use FAR less space than even the smallest ATX units. Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 One more note: While the Q28B has more interior space than either the Q08B or Q25B, it also has those pesky little screws you have to remove to take off the side panel like the Q08B. The Q25B panels simply "pop off" ... a MUCH easier way to get to the "innards" and it also has 5 hot-swap drive bays for 3.5" drives ... potentially very useful if you need to install 2 or 3 drives as a temporary "UnRAID" box or for pre-clearing. ... Thinking about what you're trying to do here, I think if I was building this, I'd use the Q08B and a dual e-SATA docking unit. This would give you (a) a built-in optical drive; (b) front-panel USBv3 ports; and © it's the smallest of the 3 options. I assume a dual e-SATA unit provides you all you need for the drive swaps that you envision ... if not, you could even use two of them and have the ability to add/remove 4 drives without ever opening the case [or use one e-SATA unit and a USBv3 dock, which is just as fast but more portable if you wanted to occasionally use it with other systems]. The other two cases are also nice choices, however, with their own set of trade-offs: Q25B: By far the best choice if you think you'll be changing drives internally a lot, since it's trivial to pop-off the side panel and has the hot-swap bays. The disadvantage is no external bay for an optical drive; and no front USB ports. These can easily be worked around with an external optical drive and a nice little powered USB hub. Q28B: Gives you the most internal space, and, like the Q08B, provides for an internal optical drive; but you lose the hot-swap bays and you're back to having to remove a bunch of tiny screws to remove the side panel (like the Q08B). It doesn't have front USB ports, but it has a couple on the front side panel .. depending on where it's going to be sitting that may be just as good. Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 As for mini-ITX motherboards with an eSATA port ... there are a few. For example ... http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128719 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132039 ... but personally I wouldn't worry about that and just use a cable to connect to an internal SATA port if you find another board you like better. Link to comment
Qtrmeg Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 These can be hard to find but take a look at the LIAN LI Q18B, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112365 It's about the same size as the Q25 but with a full size external bay, and the side pops right off to make swapping drives in & out easy. I was going to use one of them as a companion to my Q25 server but went with a Q03 instead. As for the USB3 for transferring data, I've been getting some amazing speeds, so I wouldn't stress about the occasional use of an external drive. Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Perfect -- I hadn't seen that case or I would absolutely have used it for my wife's PC !! Dimensions are almost identical to a Q25B [14.37x7.83x11.42 vs. the Q25B's 14.41x7.83x11.02]; has the same pop-off side panel; one less hot-swap bay but a 5.25" bay instead; and front USBv3 ports. Definitely what I'd suggest for this build !! Lian-Li has essentially taken the best parts of the Q08B and Q25B and combined them into this very nice case. As I noted earlier, USBv3 is fine for transferring data ... in practical terms it's as fast as a direct eSATA connection unless you're transferring from an SSD. But for diagnostics, pre-clears, etc. it's better to have a direct SATA connection; so I'd add a 2-bay eSATA dock first; and if you want more capability add a USBv3 dock (or dual dock). Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 By the way, r.e. eSATA => you could simply install one of these and connect it to an internal SATA port ... then you couldn't have a cable running into the case: http://www.amazon.com/Backplate-Bracket-ESATA-Internal-Adapter/dp/B00MCM0SM4/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1420989042&sr=1-1&keywords=SATA+to+eSATA+backplate Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 ... or use a single connector backplate, so you don't need to use two of your available SATA connectors or have an unconnected eSATA port on the back. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200111 Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Note, by the way, that all of these cases have 2 slot covers in the back (so they can support extended-ITX boards) ... which means you'll still be able to use a card in the expansion slot of an ITX motherboard even if you use one of the e-SATA brackets. Link to comment
tdallen Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 These can be hard to find but take a look at the LIAN LI Q18B, http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112365 It's about the same size as the Q25 but with a full size external bay, and the side pops right off to make swapping drives in & out easy. That case looks terrific, thanks. Slightly higher price and lower availability, but I think it may be ideal. The thing I didn't like about the Q08B was that the motherboard attached to the right side. The Q18B let's you take off both sides for greater accessibility, has the consumer features I'm looking for in a small desktop (5.25" and front USB), and sufficient bay space to turn it into a server... and hot swap bays! Looks like I'll have to be careful with the CPU cooler height, but other than that I think this looks perfect! Gary, those eSata connector brackets definitely look like the way to go, thanks! Time to pick a motherboard . Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Time to pick a motherboard . The Asus board you initially were looking at is fine, except it only has 4 SATA ports. Ideally, with the Q18B it'd be nice to have 6 SATA ports -- 4 for the hot-swap bays, one for an SSD on the bottom tray (I assume you'll want that for the OS), and 1 to connect to an eSATA bracket. There are a few nice choices that have 6 ... Asus: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132028 This is a Z87 board, and there's now a Z97 version; but the Z87 has 6 ports, built-in WiFi and Bluetooth; etc. ... and is on sale with a nice rebate. No real reason to use the newer board when this one has more SATA ports, more USBv3 ports, etc. Gigabyte: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128720 A bit less expensive, and uses the newer 97 series chipset. Still has 6 SATA ports and built in WiFi and Bluetooth, but a couple less USB ports. Certainly a good choice if you want the newest chipset. AsRock: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157504 The least expensive alternative, it also uses the Z97 chipset; and has built in WiFi and Bluetooth. Any of those boards would be good choices if you're going to use a desktop class processor (I'd just go for the gusto and use an i7-4790 in that case). If you want a server-grade motherboard to use with a Xeon E3 series CPU, I'd look at something like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157466 C226 chipset; ECC memory support; 6 SATA ports; etc. Link to comment
garycase Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 By the way, that AsRock C226 motherboard doesn't seem to have a provision to "bring out" the video from a Xeon with onboard video ... so you're limited to the relatively low-resolution, low-performance video provided for the IPMI function. Not bad for a server, but since you're looking at (I presume) a primary desktop PC with Windows, I'd probably just go with a desktop class board and a Core i7 (or lower if you don't care about maximizing your performance). Link to comment
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