1st UnRAID Build (probably Skylake): Low Power vs. High Capability

[Pinozul]

I'm replacing an aging Windows Home Server 2011 (HP ProLiant N40L with AMD Turion). Although I was generally pretty satisfied with WHS2011, that isn't an option anymore so the search for a replacement led me to unRAID.  Initially my objective was to build a low-power NAS that was capable of running 1-2 Plex streams.  But as I read more about the capabilities of unRAID, I thought maybe I should consider a more powerful box that would support VMs.

 

So my over-arching question is: Should I stick with a low-power build and save $150-$200 or should I spend the extra to get more capability, even if I'm not sure how I'd use it?

 

More details of the TL;DR variety follow.  I've already have the following items for the build:

    * Case: Fractal Design Define R5

    * PSU:  Seasonic SSR-550RM Gold

    * Array Data Drives: 3 x 3TB WD Red 5400RPM

    * Array Parity Drive: 1 x 4TB HGST Deskstar NAS 7200RPM

    * Cache Drive(s): 480GB SanDisk Plus, 240GB SanDisk Ultra II

    * Other Drives (likely Unassigned): 2 x 1.5TB Seagate Green 5900 RPM <-- not sure what I'll use these for

 

Unfortunately, I've gotten utterly bogged down trying to decide on the CPU and MoBo.  At first, I thought I'd just use a desktop motherboard and a Core i3-6100T but then I started reading about the advantages of ECC RAM, IPMI, so forth and so on. I also decided I'd like a board that supports 8 SATA ports because, for my needs, that seems like it will be sufficient for a very long time, negating the need for a SATA controller card.  All this led me to the C236 chipset.

 

So after much angst, I've narrowed it down to a trio of SuperMicro boards. Since the cost differential is minor, I'm planning to use ECC RAM. But I still can't decide on the CPU, primarily because I don't have a real feel for the demands of virtualization and whether I'll do anything with VMs other than occasional tinkering.  Given the price differential on the CPUs, I don't want to needlessly buy a Xeon if it's unlikely I'll ever need it.  So here's a candidate list for the remaining components:

 

    * MoBo: SuperMicro X11SAE-F-O: $226,  Alt #1: X11SSH-F-O: $209, Alt #2: X11SSM-F-O: $193

    * RAM:  16GB = 2 x 8GB Kingston KVR21E15D8/8HA

    * CPU:  Core i3-6100: $105, Xeon Alternatives: E3-1220 v5: $206, E3-1225 v5: $236, E3-1230 v5: $272, E3-1245 v5: $291

    > Approx. Total Build Cost (not including previously owned components): Core i3 Build = $1000, Xeon Build = $1180

 

Questions

[*]If I was just using the box as a NAS (file server & client backups) + Plex server, I get the impression the Core i3 would be sufficient. True?

 

[*]If I just wanted to putter with VMs (i.e. a single Win10 VM run occasionally), would the Core i3 still suffice? [Note: I have a separate Win10 desktop machine.]

 

[*]Are there some other threads that would give me a clear idea of what sort of demands would necessitate a Xeon?

 

[*]Would 8GB of RAM suffice to start off?  If so, could that be a single 8GB stick or does it need to be 2 x 4GB for dual channel?

 

[*]I noticed some C236 boards have no onboard audio. Does that imply that, without adding a sound card, they are suitable only for server-type functions and not for VMs?

 

[*]I'm confused by the integrated graphics options on the various C236 boards. Some have no integrated graphics but support Intel HD graphics on the CPU. Others (like a couple of the SuperMicro boards) have integrated graphics (Aspeed AST2400) but do not appear to support Intel HD graphics. All three of the SuperMicro boards above have integrated graphics. Is the integrated graphics basically intended just for console activities?

 

[*]Would I need to buy one of the E3-12x5 Xeon CPUs that have on-chip Intel Graphics only if I intend to connect a monitor locally to the box? [i don't.]

 

[*]Some motherboards I looked at had 1 to 2 PCI slots.  I don't have any PCI cards so ignoring legacy support, is there any reason those slots might have value to me that isn't apparent to me now?

 

[*]I saw some threads discussing problems with Skylake systems, either after upgrading to unRAID 6.2 or when trying to pass through video or audio.  For a new build like mine, do I still need to be concerned about any "gotchas" using a Skylake CPU and MoBo?

 

My apologies for the length and number of questions.  My gratitude for any insight offered.  Thanks much.

[SpaceInvaderOne]

I really don't think you need to use ECC ram.

If you are going to build a skylake system why not use this motherboard http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z170%20Extreme7+

Has plenty of SATA and PCIe slots.

I would buy an i7 6700 or 6700k. That will give you good results with VMS etc.

 

An i3 for nas would be fine but anything else I would go with something better.

 

The problem is with unRAID is you start with wanting just a nas. Then seeing what it can do you start wishing you bought different hardware!

 

When I first got unRAID within the first 12 months I rebuilt my system 5 times. I started with an hp micro server, then went to an older quad core Xeon build, from that to a z170 skylake build, then an x99 12 core Xeon and then finally settled on an x99 14 core xeon. It gets addictive !!

 

[ashman70]

1. A core i3 is going to be stretching it if you want to support more than one stream with transcoding, better to consider a core i5 processor

2. Again, with a core i3 you would be stretching it, if you had a dual core i3, and gave two cores to your VM you'd only have two left for unRAID, its doable but pushing the limits

3. Possibly, you would have to search. A Xeon is a workhorse processor, so if you wanted to do a lot of processing, have multiple VM's with two or more cores each, support multiple plex streams with transcoding etc.

4. 8GB is a good starting point for unRAID 6 which is 64bit.

5. It implies there is no sound, so yes they would be suitable as server boards where sound is not required or needed.

6. I am not sure either, someone else more knowledgeable can answer this.

7. Not sure

8. Not that I can think of

9. Possibly, you would have to read the threads.

[SpaceInvaderOne]

6.  Most people never "use" console on their unRAID as they connect to the server with another device on the network by the web interface or ssh/telnet.

 

But yes onboard graphics is normally used just for console output. Whatever GPU is set as primary will display console. This can be an advantage because if using a Nvidia GPU as primary (without onboard) then you have to pass through its rom file to use it with VMS. (This is because the Vbios of the primary output device gets shadowed on boot.) If you have onboard (or another GPU as primary) then you don't need to do this (as the card becomes secondary).

 

7. Again the advantage of onboard graphics is as above. It is certainly not needed if you want to connect a console monitor to your unRAID server or not.

 

8. Nope

 

9. I have used a skylake system in the past with good results. If using VMs you will not be able to pass through the onboard sound chip if you use a z170 board, but no big deal as you use the passed through GPU sound.

IOMMU groups may be more difficult to split up but will normally work when ACS override is on. But read the threads and see what others have found.

[Hoopster]

Questions

[*]If I was just using the box as a NAS (file server & client backups) + Plex server, I get the impression the Core i3 would be sufficient. True?

 

[*]If I just wanted to putter with VMs (i.e. a single Win10 VM run occasionally), would the Core i3 still suffice? [Note: I have a separate Win10 desktop machine.]

 

[*]Are there some other threads that would give me a clear idea of what sort of demands would necessitate a Xeon?

 

[*]Would 8GB of RAM suffice to start off?  If so, could that be a single 8GB stick or does it need to be 2 x 4GB for dual channel?

 

[*]I noticed some C236 boards have no onboard audio. Does that imply that, without adding a sound card, they are suitable only for server-type functions and not for VMs?

 

[*]I'm confused by the integrated graphics options on the various C236 boards. Some have no integrated graphics but support Intel HD graphics on the CPU. Others (like a couple of the SuperMicro boards) have integrated graphics (Aspeed AST2400) but do not appear to support Intel HD graphics. All three of the SuperMicro boards above have integrated graphics. Is the integrated graphics basically intended just for console activities?

 

[*]Would I need to buy one of the E3-12x5 Xeon CPUs that have on-chip Intel Graphics only if I intend to connect a monitor locally to the box? [i don't.]

 

[*]Some motherboards I looked at had 1 to 2 PCI slots.  I don't have any PCI cards so ignoring legacy support, is there any reason those slots might have value to me that isn't apparent to me now?

 

[*]I saw some threads discussing problems with Skylake systems, either after upgrading to unRAID 6.2 or when trying to pass through video or audio.  For a new build like mine, do I still need to be concerned about any "gotchas" using a Skylake CPU and MoBo?

 

1. Just as a NAS, i3 is sufficient.  If you want to do Plex as well or run a VM,  move up to an i5 which has 4 cores. I started with an i3 and 4GB RAM when unRAID was just a NAS for me.  I am currently running an i5 4590 and 16GB for Plex, Crashplan (uses a lot of RAM if you have large backup sets) and a single Windows 10 VM.  I am currently in the process of upgrading to a Xeon E3-1245 V5, and 32 GB of ECC RAM on an ASRock Rack C236 WSI (Mini-ITX w/8 SATA ports) MB.

 

2. i3 would likely be underpowered for a Win 10 VM; i5 is no problem

 

3. Search for Xeon discussions, there are many.  I myself am moving in that direction simply because once you start playing with unRAID you start finding uses for all it can do.  The setup I mentioned above is my attempt to quit spending money on my unRAID box for a few years (fat chance) and "future proof" my setup for a while.

 

4.  8GB RAM is plenty for NAS and moderate Plex use; but, if you want to run VMs and are going to be backing up your server to the cloud with Crashplan, 16GB is better.  Crashplan is a RAM hog. I currently have 4GB allocated to it.  I doubt unRAID itself really cares about single channel or dual-channel aspects of RAM, but applications you run on it or in a VM may.  Personally, because I have always stuck to Mini-ITX form factor and am limited to two RAM slots, I have always purchased two sticks and had either 16GB or 32 GB (the max for the boards), in the RAM slots.

 

5. You can pass onboard audio through to a VM.  I am doing it now.  Without onboard audio and without installing a sound card, there would be no audio to pass through.

 

6. You need video capabilities (either on the CPU or the MB) if you want to attach a monitor to the server.  For completely headless, it is not needed. However, you would be limited to remote desktop/VNC or PuTTY/SSH/Telnet access to the unRAID CLI.  Keep in mind that unRAID has recently added integrated GPU passthrough to VMs capabilities as well.  Integrated GPU support for VGA has been dropped in Skylake, but, many board manufacturers still provide it with an onboard chip. 

 

7. See number 6.

 

8. No need for PCI slots that I can think of.

 

9. There have been some issues related to VMs with Skylake.  Many of those have been resolved, but, some remain.  Splitting IOMMU groups seems to be the biggest remaining issue.  There are some threads about the issues in these forums.  I am going Skylake and don't anticipate any insurmountable issues, but, I am not fully utilizing VM hardware passthrough capabilities.  Mini-ITX with only a single PCIe slot keeps it somewhat limited.

[Pinozul]

Very helpful feedback; thanks so much.

 

Based on your comments, sounds like I should just go ahead & bite the bullet for a Xeon now. Although I'm not enthusiastic about spending the extra bucks, I guess I'd rather do it now than have to mess with it again in a year or two.

 

So a couple more questions:

 

A. Any thoughts on comparative value between the three non-GPU Xeons below? For me, if I were to consider the 1230, I could get the 1240 for another $22 so it almost feels like this should be a decision between the 1220 and 1240.  OTOH, maybe that's $22 not well spent.

 

CPU                Price  Cores/Threads  Passmark

E3-1220 v5    $206        4/4                7355 (similar to Core i5-6500)

E3-1230 v5    $272        4/8                9629

E3-1240 v5    $294        4/8              10369 (similar to Core i7-6700)

 

B. If I go with the X11SAE-F-O board, it has Realtek audio and Aspeed AST2400 integrated graphics. However, I get the sense from the spec sheet that the Aspeed graphics is only available for BMC/IPMI suggesting perhaps that it could not be passed through to a VM. So if I decided to connect a monitor to the box in order to run VMs locally, I would need either a) a separate video card or b) one of the Xeon E3-12x5 versions with Intel HD P530 graphics, right?

 

C. Finally, to further demonstrate my confusion, if you have the above MoBo card with a non-GPU Xeon and you ignore the Aspeed graphics, you would have no way to output video locally. But you can still remote into the box and get full audio and video via the remote session, right?

[Hoopster]

Very helpful feedback; thanks so much.

 

Based on your comments, sounds like I should just go ahead & bite the bullet for a Xeon now. Although I'm not enthusiastic about spending the extra bucks, I guess I'd rather do it now than have to mess with it again in a year or two.

That totally depends on your intended use and discipline.  It costs money if you always have to have the latest and can't get by with what you have for 2-3 years  .  Even though it has probably cost me some money in the long run, I am glad I waited 2-3 years between upgrades considering the path I have taken and the unRAID development schedule.  Until recently (unRAID v6 with dockers and VM) there was no need to spend a lot on CPU/RAM.  Now, it all depends on your needs as unRAID can do so much more than it could just two years ago.  I am going with an ASRock server-grade board, Xeon and ECC RAM because this will be sufficient to carry me through (I hope) several years of use given my current needs.  Ideally, I had hoped for a socket 1151 CPU that had 6-8 cores but, that requires going to socket 2011.

 

You do not have to go i7/Xeon unless you anticipate needs that would require a CPU with a 10K+ passmark (3-4 transcoded Plex streams) with overhead for a VM or two and NAS functionality.  However, you have chosen a server-grade MB.  You can maximize its use with a server CPU and ECC RAM (differences of opinion abound in these forums regarding the necessity of ECC RAM).

 

Do you want to "bite the bullet now" on components you may not fully utilize for a while, or, do you want to just buy what you need for now, save some money in the short-term, and see what is available in 2-3 years and what additional capabilities unRAID may provide?  Tough question, I know.  This was a lot easier when unRAID was not so darn flexible and functional!

 

So a couple more questions:

 

A. Any thoughts on comparative value between the three non-GPU Xeons below? For me, if I were to consider the 1230, I could get the 1240 for another $22 so it almost feels like this should be a decision between the 1220 and 1240.  OTOH, maybe that's $22 not well spent.

 

CPU                Price  Cores/Threads  Passmark

E3-1220 v5    $206        4/4                7355 (similar to Core i5-6500)

E3-1230 v5    $272        4/8                9629

E3-1240 v5    $294        4/8              10369 (similar to Core i7-6700)

 

B. If I go with the X11SAE-F-O board, it has Realtek audio and Aspeed AST2400 integrated graphics. However, I get the sense from the spec sheet that the Aspeed graphics is only available for BMC/IPMI suggesting perhaps that it could not be passed through to a VM. So if I decided to connect a monitor to the box in order to run VMs locally, I would need either a) a separate video card or b) one of the Xeon E3-12x5 versions with Intel HD P530 graphics, right?

 

C. Finally, to further demonstrate my confusion, if you have the above MoBo card with a non-GPU Xeon and you ignore the Aspeed graphics, you would have no way to output video locally. But you can still remote into the box and get full audio and video via the remote session, right?

 

A. I agree, if you are going Xeon, the choice is between the 1220 and the 1240.  For $22 you get a little more "overhead" on the 1240 vs. the 1230.  The choice between the 1220 and the 1240 is a choice between current and future needs and how soon you will arrive at the "future."  I really believe you should be looking at at least an i5 or Xeon equivalent.

 

B.  I believe the Aspeed AST2400 also provides on board graphics.  That's why there are video ports on the backplane and there is no requirement for a GPU integrated CPU.  It also provides IPMI/BMC.  I am not an expert in this, but, that is my understanding.  If the video ports required a CPU with integrated graphics, that would be noted in the specs.  Here is the note from my ASrock C236 WSI MB SPecs "-Intel® HD Graphics Built-in Visuals and the VGA outputs can be supported only with processors which are GPU integrated"

 

C. If my answer above is correct, the Aspeed graphics chip means you do have onboard video and you can connect a monitor to the server.  Of course, you can ALWAYS access the system remotely.  Audio can only be passed through to a VM.  There is nothing in unRAID itself that requires any audio.

[Hoopster]

 

B. If I go with the X11SAE-F-O board, it has Realtek audio and Aspeed AST2400 integrated graphics. However, I get the sense from the spec sheet that the Aspeed graphics is only available for BMC/IPMI suggesting perhaps that it could not be passed through to a VM. So if I decided to connect a monitor to the box in order to run VMs locally, I would need either a) a separate video card or b) one of the Xeon E3-12x5 versions with Intel HD P530 graphics, right?

 

Oops! missed the part about passing the Aspeed AST2400 through to a VM.  Yeah, I doubt you could do that.  However, it would give you a local monitor for unRAID on the server.  For passing through video to a VM, you would need a separate video card or an 12x5 Xeon with integrated graphics (assuming iGPU passthrough works as currently stated in the 6.3 beta).

[Pinozul]

COMPONENTS PURCHASED

 

Well, I pulled the trigger on the Xeon E3-1245 v5 along with the Supermicro X11SAE-F-O motherboard and ECC RAM.  Although it's hard to say whether I'll ultimately take advantage of the power, in the end, I figured I was paying a premium just to "stop the madness" and quit driving myself crazy. 

 

As much as I enjoy building computers, once they're done I don't generally feel like opening them up and upgrading them after a couple years...too many other hobbies to spend time on.  So I try to build something with at least a five year lifespan.  I think these components should meet that objective.

 

If the whole build comes together well enough and doesn't devolve into an interminable time-sink, I might just run a Window 10 VM on the server and use that as my desktop.  With these components, it would be comparable to the Haswell Core i7 setup in my existing desktop. If that proves viable, I can sell my desktop and recoup some of the cost.  We shall see.

 

Thanks again, folks, for the insights.  I'll try to remember and report back with a quick summary after I've got it built & running.