Already got 2 Promise 4 Port Sata Cards in server, can I add a 3rd?

[Suse User]

I'm looking to swap out the last 4 remaining IDE drives from my server, basically because they're too small.

 

I have 4 motherboard  sata ports and 2 Promise 4-Port Sata cards in my server.  Is it safe to add a 3rd 4-Port Sata card or should I look to replace one of my exisitng ones with an 8-Port card of some kind?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark.

[Rajahal]

What motherboard are you using?  Chances are it is safe, but it will be quite slow.  It is likely that all your PCI slots share the same PCI bus, so that means 12 drives all vying for bandwidth during parity checks and simultaneous writes to multiple disks.  If you generally only access one drive at a time, then that shouldn't be a problem.  However, if you ever use multiple drives at once, then you will notice severe slowdown.  Your parity check and rebuild-from-parity times will also be very slow, perhaps even 24 hours or more.

 

The only reason I would recommend PCI expansion cards at this point in the game is if you are on a tight budget and you generally just don't care about speed.  If that's the case, I've got a used Promise TX4 that I'm willing to sell cheap, say $30 + shipping.

 

If your motherboard has a free PCIe x4 or faster slot, then you may want to consider upgrading to a modern expansion card, such as the currently popular SuperMicro AOC-SASLP-MV8.  Note that this card also requires breakout cables.  I'll need to know more about your setup to recommend the right ones (do you use SAS backplanes or drive cages?), but most likely you need two of these (and the .5 m length is most likely sufficient).  These Newegg links are just convenient, but you may be able to find these parts cheaper elsewhere.

[Suse User]

You make a good point about the PCI Bus, my system is around 3 years old.   I do have 1 PCIe port I'm not using (where  graphics card would go), but I assumed since I already have 1 PCI Sata there would be no benefit getting a faster PCIe one to go with it.  I just opened up my unraid and whilst I thought I had 2 4-Port Sata controllers in there, I actually only have 1 and 8 Sata ports on the Mobo.

 

My setup is:-

 

Gigabyte GA-G33-DS3R Mobo

Don't recall what CPU I used & not sure how to check.

2 GB Geil PC6400 800Mhz Ram

1 x 4 Port Promise SATA Controller

1 x 4 Channel (2 IDE Cables) Promise IDE Controller (Only 2 onboard IDE channels)

16 Assorted HDDs (4 IDE & 12 Sata) ranging from 300GB to 2TB (mainly 500GB-1TB).  

 

We store complete backups of all computers on our network, loads of Home Video & CCTV video footage, both original format and edited, 1000's of photos in RAW format, as well as using it as a media server.  We ask a lot of our unraid and it works just fine.  Only reason for changing the small HDDs is that it's getting increasingly difficult to find chunks of space big enough to back up 500GB+ PCs & Macs images & DMG files to it.

 

Currently a parity rebuild takes around 21 hours!!!

 

It is my intention to use multiple connections to the same server in the near future, I've been meaning to build a SageTV server to record my TV shows and have that move them to the Unraid server.  Perhaps it's time to buy a complete new Mobo/CPU/Memory combo instead.  All the heavy duty massive file size computer backups happen periodically as cron jobs via rsync in the night where they won't interfere with other use of the server.

 

Thanks,

 

Mark.

[Rajahal]

Nah, I don't think you need a new motherboard as long as you aren't having any problems with your current one.  8 SATA ports is nice and hard to find in modern motherboards; it would be a shame to give that up.

 

I still endorse the SuperMicro card I mentioned earlier, however, you may want to call Gigabyte and check that your motherboard can use it.  Some older motherboards only allow the PCIe x16 slot to be used for video cards.

 

Also, there's another simple and cost effective solution available to you since I see that your motherboard has three PCIe x1 slots.  You could buy three of these cheap SIL3132 cards and gain an easy and fast 6 ports.  No special cables needed, just regular SATA cables.  Three of those cards comes out to around $50 with shipping.  I've used these cards in several different servers with success - plug and play and none have failed on me yet.

 

8 onboard SATA + 6 via PCIe x1 = 14 drives.  You could then keep using your current Promise PCI card for the last few drives.  I would make your Promise PCI card slots your 'last resort' slots, meaning that every other slot should be used before you start using them.  If you can limit your use of the PCI bus to just one or two drives, then you will see significant speed improvements in parity checks and similar.  Also, place your smallest drives on the PCI bus so that once the parity check passes them, it can speed up to PCIe speeds.

 

You could also consider consolidating some of your smallest drives onto a new large drive.  Consolidating four 500 GB drives onto a singe 2 TB drive will free up 3 SATA slots, and may even allow you to stop using the PCI bus altogether.  It will also use about 1/4 of the power.

 

It is definitely a good idea to consolidate all of your IDE drives onto a single large SATA drive, since IDE is slow and uses a LOT of power (compared to SATA, at least).

 

If you do continue using the PCI bus, you can also do some manual speed optimizations just by reorganizing your data and drives.  Read this:

Move Largest and Fastest Data Drives Off PCI Bus

 

I do think 21 hours is a bit long for a parity check.  Mine completes in about 8 hours (I have 9 drives all on the motherboard or PCIe bus, sizes ranging from 500 GB to 2 TB).

 

Also, since you use an older Gigabyte motherboard, have you checked for potential HPA issues?  You can read more about it here.  I also recently wrote a little HPA test here.

[Suse User]

Thanks again for the detailed reply, far more than I could have hoped for

 

Nah, I don't think you need a new motherboard as long as you aren't having any problems with your current one.  8 SATA ports is nice and hard to find in modern motherboards; it would be a shame to give that up.

 

That's good news, I bought this mobo because it had 8 Satas and Onboard GFX & Gig Lan.

 

I still endorse the SuperMicro card I mentioned earlier, however, you may want to call Gigabyte and check that your motherboard can use it.  Some older motherboards only allow the PCIe x16 slot to be used for video cards.

 

I'll look into this, if I can use it how many Sata drives can I run off the one card?

 

Also, there's another simple and cost effective solution available to you since I see that your motherboard has three PCIe x1 slots.  You could buy three of these cheap SIL3132 cards and gain an easy and fast 6 ports.  No special cables needed, just regular SATA cables.  Three of those cards comes out to around $50 with shipping.  I've used these cards in several different servers with success - plug and play and none have failed on me yet.

 

I'm in the UK, but I'm sure there's an equivalent product I could find, but if the SuperMicro will run 8 Satas I think that would be a better Option (it is available here).  I have a Classic Coolermaster Stacker case with 12 front bays using 4into3 cages which gives 16 HDDs all in a line with plenty of air around them. so a breakout cable could do the nearest HDDs and the further ones could be off the Motherboard using my existing cables.

 

8 onboard SATA + 6 via PCIe x1 = 14 drives.  You could then keep using your current Promise PCI card for the last few drives.  I would make your Promise PCI card slots your 'last resort' slots, meaning that every other slot should be used before you start using them.  If you can limit your use of the PCI bus to just one or two drives, then you will see significant speed improvements in parity checks and similar.  Also, place your smallest drives on the PCI bus so that once the parity check passes them, it can speed up to PCIe speeds.

 

Hadn't considered that, good tip

 

You could also consider consolidating some of your smallest drives onto a new large drive.  Consolidating four 500 GB drives onto a singe 2 TB drive will free up 3 SATA slots, and may even allow you to stop using the PCI bus altogether.  It will also use about 1/4 of the power.

 

This is the way I'm slowly going, though knowing me I won't be able to resist keeping HDDs I have lying around in the server just because I have them.

 

It is definitely a good idea to consolidate all of your IDE drives onto a single large SATA drive, since IDE is slow and uses a LOT of power (compared to SATA, at least).

 

The IDEs will be history, that's what started this quest for more SATA ports

 

Also, since you use an older Gigabyte motherboard, have you checked for potential HPA issues?  You can read more about it here.  I also recently wrote a little HPA test here.

 

Yes, I did/do have this issue, I was the person who started the "It's my PARITY and I'll cry if I want to" thread (still proud of that title , though my current 2TB HDDs are both Western Digital Greens and haven't suffered from this.

 

Thanks once again,

 

Mark

[Rajahal]

I'll look into this, if I can use it how many Sata drives can I run off the one card?

 

You can run up to 8 SATA drives off of one card.  Since your motherboard has only one PCIe x16 slot, that will be your limit.  Also remember that you will need two breakout cables (each cable does 4 drives).

 

Theoretically a single card could support even more drives with port multipliers, but I don't think that theory has been tested yet.

 

I'm in the UK, but I'm sure there's an equivalent product I could find, but if the SuperMicro will run 8 Satas I think that would be a better Option (it is available here).  I have a Classic Coolermaster Stacker case with 12 front bays using 4into3 cages which gives 16 HDDs all in a line with plenty of air around them. so a breakout cable could do the nearest HDDs and the further ones could be off the Motherboard using my existing cables.

 

I agree, the SuperMicro card is a better option.

 

This is the way I'm slowly going, though knowing me I won't be able to resist keeping HDDs I have lying around in the server just because I have them.

 

I know the feeling.  I've got an old 250 GB SATA drive that I'm contemplating installing in my server even though I've got around 2 TB of free space at the moment...

 

Yes, I did/do have this issue, I was the person who started the "It's my PARITY and I'll cry if I want to" thread (still proud of that title , though my current 2TB HDDs are both Western Digital Greens and haven't suffered from this.

 

That is a great thread title.  I haven't read through your whole thread, but just to clarify - HPA is at root a problem with the motherboard, not the drives.  So the fact that your two 2 TB WD Greens don't have HPA partitions is a matter of pure luck.  If you have been able to address the HPA issue by updating your motherboard's BIOS, then great.  However, if your motherboard still has HPA enabled by default, then I would highly suggest buying a new motherboard. 

 

Here's the potential problem: Let's say disk1 in your array is the disk with the HPA partition.  Now say it dies (or some other component supporting it, such as a cable, expansion card, etc. dies).  The motherboard now can't find it's HPA partition so it makes another on disk2.  The shrinks your drive as far as unRAID is concerned, and potentially clobbers the data on the first few bytes of disk2.  unRAID thinks it is a new disk.  Your array is now broken, and you may or may not have data loss.  Or say the motherboard writes the new HPA partition to the parity drive instead of disk2.  All of a sudden your parity drive is no longer your biggest drive and the array is broken (which I think is the issue you ran into before).

 

Disabling HPA in the BIOS isn't enough either, since if your CMOS battery dies (and it eventually will), then your motherboard will revert to HPA being enabled and break the array again.

 

Basically, I wouldn't trust any server that has HPA enabled by default.  It is a ticking time bomb.

 

Sorry if I have made you paranoid about your data's safety, but since you are looking for new hardware anyway now would be the time to address this problem.  And look on the bright side - maybe you can get a motherboard with multiple PCIe x4 slots that can use multiple SuperMicro cards and you can bring your drive count up to 20+.

[Suse User]

Scarey stuff about that HPA, I've downloaded the manual for my GA-G33-DS3R motherboard, and I can't see any mention of HPA anywhere.

 

One thing has occurred to me, I used to run each of my HDDs through a different machine first that booted from a Spinrite CD simply to check it's integrity prior to installing in my server. I'm hoping that perhaps that was where the HPA problem was occurring as I've upgraded my Parity HDD at least twice since and haven't had any further problems.

 

Back to the Sata controller, I've done a little research and it would appear (from the Giga-Byte forums at least) that I'm good to go with the AOC-SASLP-MV8 card in the X16 PCIe slot so I've ordered one.  They're out of stock right now but hopefully it won't be too long arriving.

 

As it's a low profile card I take it you don't secure it to the case in any way?  Simply leave it hanging from the PCIe slot?

 

Once I get it would I be better off putting the biggest HDDs on the new controller? or on the Motherboard sata ports?  It is now my intention to remove the IDE & Sata PCI cards completely and just run with the 8 onboard Sata ports and 8 on the Supermicro card. Hopefully that'll speed up parity by quite a bit.

 

Thanks,

 

Mark.

 

[Edited Broken Link]

[BRiT]

HPA = Save Bios to Disk

 

[Rajahal]

As it's a low profile card I take it you don't secure it to the case in any way?  Simply leave it hanging from the PCIe slot?

They usually ship with both low profile and normal brackets.  So you can swap out the brackets and install it normally.  You may have to switch the side of the card that the bracket sits up against so that it fits correctly in the case, I had to.

 

Once I get it would I be better off putting the biggest HDDs on the new controller? or on the Motherboard sata ports?  It is now my intention to remove the IDE & Sata PCI cards completely and just run with the 8 onboard Sata ports and 8 on the Supermicro card. Hopefully that'll speed up parity by quite a bit.

The motherboard ports should always be fastest, so put your parity drive and your largest data drives on the motherboard ports.  In practice, however, I don't think it really matters at all.  I don't notice any speed differences between the ports.

[NAS]

FYI dont add a 3rd promise card. I had no end of problems when i did. random loclups that never were debugged. known issue

[Suse User]

Just thought I'd post that the Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 card is working perfectly in my UnRaid with 8 HDDs on it now, so no need for any Prmoise PCI controller at all   System is a LOT faster at Parity rebuilds etc.

 

Thanks for help,

 

Mark.