What UPS


Dal1980

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Hi guys, I've recently purchased the wrong UPS (even after all my research and using APC product suggestion tool to pick me the right one). I'm having to send it back because it didn't have the cable that would warn the PC to shutdown. It's cost me £10, time and stress to send it back so I'm putting my hands up and saying I don't know what I'm doing with these UPS's'sss 😁

 

I was wondering if anyone had any advice on brands and models, what to look for, what to avoid. These things get pricey FAST even though I feel like they are quite a simple unit/technology. I know the batteries add cost as I used to buy them types of batteries for my Motor Bikes and they would usually cost about £20 a piece and I see APC sell them £54 but I guess that includes magical pixie dust so makes sense. 🤫

 

I technically only have 1 workstation (my unRAID system) that needs protecting from power cut and it only needs enough time to stop the array and gracefully shutdown.

 

I do have a pfSense PC (SoC type board with passive cooling so the power draw is minimal) which may be worth plugging in.

 

I have a cabinet and thought it would be nice to have a rack mounted unit but looking at the price I don't think I want to spend £600 on one of those.

 

Budget: upto £150

 

Battery capacity: I don't really want to have to replace more batteries than I need. Ideally the capacity could be reduced to my needs but not sure how this works (if it does at all). For example: A unit which normally hold 4 units, could I disconnect 3 of them and still have the unit working since my power draw won't need 4 batteries. I just don't want a massive bill every 2-5 years for battery replacements if that makes sense.

 

Rack mountable: Ideally this would be great, if not, is there a nice way to integrate into a cabinet I wonder other than buying a shelf. 

 

New or Old: either

 

Current specs if this helps

unRAID box

AMD Ryzen 7 2700 3.2 GHz 8-Core Processor

Asus PRIME X370-PRO ATX AM4 Motherboard

BeQuiet 300 W SFX Power Supply Unit

4x HDD

2x SSD

 

pfSense box

Low-power, fanless motherboard for Intel Celeron® SoC N3050 processor

 

Updated:

I found some possible candidates:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Riello-DLPR-100-UPS-Rack-2u-1000VA-new-batteries-12m-RTB-warranty/183569308198?epid=27026753731&hash=item2abd955a26:g:Y~YAAOSwhzhcB87B

Don't know if that front Ethernet port is the port that would communicate with the PC when the power is switched to battery and I don't know if the 2 of the 3 batteries could be disconnected?

 

https://ebay.us/loUmOh - this one looks good (I think) but again the can I use less batteries maybe

 

Many thanks

 

 

 

 

Edited by Dal1980
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I've emailed an ebay guy and asked him pretty much the same questions and his response is:

 

you need to come at this from the other direction, please find the type of 
UPS is confirmed to work with that NAS / Raid box and OS

I don't know what this means?

 

The UPS needs all the cells to hit the right DC voltage.

Guess that confirms that I can't disconnect any of these batteries which means in 2-5 years I will need to spend around £200 replacing the batteries which is way over budget.

 

Does anyone have any input/advice to give to me on any of this or UPS in general?

 

Many thanks

Edited by Dal1980
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1 hour ago, Dal1980 said:

Does unRAID only support APC?

Not APC only, but you need search yourself and confirm it work with Unraid.

 

On 5/15/2020 at 5:34 PM, Dal1980 said:

I know the batteries add cost as I used to buy them types of batteries for my Motor Bikes and they would usually cost about £20 a piece and I see APC sell them £54 but I guess that includes magical pixie dust so makes sense. 🤫

Usually use 12v 7AH type, just don't buy battery which store in long period. Few days ago I buy 4 to replace the fault battery, this cost about USD 60 total ( not live US ), mfg date was Oct-19, not bad.

 

On 5/15/2020 at 5:34 PM, Dal1980 said:

Ideally the capacity could be reduced to my needs but not sure how this works

Depends on the UPS design, you can use some smaller capacity battery but size will be different, after that the backup time will reduce a lot too. My current 2U 2200w UPS got from Internet forum member ( free but stop working in first ). Luckily it just battery problem ( UPS mfg date was 2001 ). It design use eight 12v 4AH battery to form 48v, but I change it use four 12v 7AH battery, that reduce the cost.

 

You need consider

- Battery combination.

- UPS drive capacity

- Sinewave type or not

- Support longrun or not

 

My

1st UPS ( 550w new ) was 12v which cost me ~100 USD, not long-run and not sine wave type , only can protect small load.

2nd UPS ( 900w old ) was 24v which cost me ~20 USD, long-run and not sine wave type, battery fault.

3rd UPS ( 2200w old, current use ) was 48v, long-run type and sine wave.
 

** All are APC and use same cable to communicate to PC / Unraid. **

Edited by Benson
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Thanks Benson, you have given me a lot to think about.

 

My research into compatible lists for unRAID/APC Daemon seems to be a dead-end. I'd rather not be a guinea pig as it's already cost me £10 to send my wrongly bought unit back. 

 

Some of these APC units come with a serial port, is this the same as the USB port for passing the signal for shutdown? (i.e. serial to usb cable)

 

I'm thinking about buying one from this source: ups-trader.co.uk but it seems I don't know enough to make a decision as yet.

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8 hours ago, Dal1980 said:

Some of these APC units come with a serial port, is this the same as the USB port for passing the signal for shutdown? (i.e. serial to usb cable)

For serial port, it communicate in RS-232 portocol, and USB just use USB (HID). My one have a COM port and RJ45-10C, you can use either one anytime and RJ45-10C have RS232 and USB protocol support.

 

Outlook like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/APC-DLA2200RM12U-UPS-USED/164080970922?hash=item2633fcecaa:g:fz4AAOSw5PleRbqA

 

https://secure.ups-trader.co.uk/rack-ups/62-sua2200rmi2u-nf-norg-c.html?search_query=2200rm&results=18

 

I think 1000VA should suitable for you, you need confirm seller ** does data cable include and can management by USB ** , btw, all cable should be common type and easy to found.

https://secure.ups-trader.co.uk/rack-ups/181-sua1000rmi1u-wf.html

 

It is 48v, 84AH ( 4x 12v 2A battery) 24v, ( 4 x 6v 7AH battery ), but all those are quit heavy, seller say it include new battery.

https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/products/APC-Replacement-Battery-Cartridge-34/P-RBC34

 

Runtime should be like this

https://www.apc.com/products/runtimegraph/runtime_graph.cfm?base_sku=SUA1000RMI1U&chartSize=large

Edited by Benson
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Thank you, that's good information.

 

My needs for the UPS is to send a shutdown signal, I don't ever need anything to be powered on for more than a few minutes while the unRAID shuts down.

 

Just one question, is there any other reason why you chose the SUA1000 over the SUA750?

I ask because the 750 is nearly half the price and it fundamentally looks like the same unit.

 

https://secure.ups-trader.co.uk/rack-ups/185-sua750rmi1u-no-front.html

 

Many thanks

 

Edited by Dal1980
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4 minutes ago, Dal1980 said:

Thank you, that's good information.

 

My needs for the UPS is to send a shutdown signal, I don't ever need anything to be powered on for more than a few minutes while the unRAID shuts down.

 

Just one question, is there any other reason why you chose the SUA1000 over the SUA750?

I ask because the 750 is nearly half the price and it fundamentally looks like the same unit.

 

https://secure.ups-trader.co.uk/rack-ups/185-sua750rmi1u-no-front.html

 

Many thanks

 

I just simple search, if 750 that price ( even no front plastic cover ), than must go with it. But you must confirm USB have management function. Good luck.

Edited by Benson
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On thing to think about is the data the UPS reports back, a lot of the information is not automatically reported by all UPS's, eg current UPS load and current UPS load %.  I made that mistake and had to live with it for a while now, but my UPS finally died, so i'm now in the market for a new one, but research is slow :(

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Tell me about it, there's UPS information all over the place but nothing goes into any great depth. I can't even get a straight answer out of people who sell these things and the manufacturers website sucks.

 

The feature you've just mentioned is yet another feature I didn't know about.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dal1980 said:

Tell me about it, there's UPS information all over the place but nothing goes into any great depth. I can't even get a straight answer out of people who sell these things and the manufacturers website sucks.

 

The feature you've just mentioned is yet another feature I didn't know about.

 

 

Its strange because some APC units will report it wile using the specific APC software, but trying to get it to report the information to unraid is almost like voodoo.  I've hear reports that if you want a floor or desk standing unit, CyberPower smart units are the way to go, but if you want rack mounted, APC is the way to go.

 

There doesn't seem to be an up to date hardware list in terms of support anywhere, all of it seems to be very old.  I have started looking and i'm currently deep diving into one of these:

 

https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Smart-UPS-1500VA-LCD-RM-2U-230V-with-SmartConnect/P-SMT1500RMI2UC

 

They are expensive on the site, but you can get at least a third off if you look around.  I'll report back here if i decide on this one and it does whats required.  It would be nice if some other people who have UPS's would chime in on their experinces with which ever model they have. 

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I think I've whittled it down to these 4. The 2 end products seem to be older LED models while the first two are LCD info panels hence the price difference.

I'm not sure if there is any potential features on this list (or missing must have features that aren't on any of them).

Uneducated guess would tell me that the 1st product (140) is the better one (I don't understand why it's cheaper than the 2nd product)?

 

Any suggestions/tips?

 

image.thumb.png.265546ac5b7244322ea84f86e071c0a0.pngimageproxy.php?img=&key=e5eec7c5c933ca16

 

Edit: forgot to mention: Features listed in green are the same across all 4 products

Edited by Dal1980
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I don't understand why you will compare the price different on those old unit, it mainly depends on their condition and price setting from seller.

They just two series SMT and SUA, SMT should be replacement for SUA and have some advance feature but those not importance.

 

SUA (my one) are quite old model which mfg over 10years, that means they should have life time issue, so half in price could be understand, you should consider that too.

 

Pls also understand the purpose of UPS, for me, drive power capacity and battery capacity always are two main factor for selection. Otherwise don't waste space, money on that, because it can't provide reliable protection.

Edited by Benson
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Form table list, the only thing draw my attention was the weight of SMT750, it should because build with a small capacity battery. ( like previous mention 84WH ). Your setup should use ~200w power usage during system shutdown, so have 20+ min, if consider the degrade of battery with time, it should still acceptable.

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 Thanks Benson. (You replied again just as I'd finished this but might be thinking the same... but a change based on price)

 

I'm thinking about going with just the SMT750 as it's slighter more modern than the SUA750 and apparently it uses some newer methods of communication protocol 

 

Result of google search "apc smt vs sua"

Quote

"The SUA and SMT are pretty similar. The major differences are the SMT has the LCD, a higher online efficiency (green mode), and utilizes a micro-link language instead of the old APC link language. Honestly you can't go wrong with either, both will work great for your mac pro."

 

I've also read that SMT uses a better charging method (but they also said that the couldn't confirm this).

 

750 uses a RBC123 battery which retails directly from APC for around $60 while the SMT1000 uses a RBC132 which retails at about $250.

 

But, I don't like the idea of paying £165 + £13 P&P (£178) so might just go for the SMT1000 (£155 P&P included) and cross my fingers when it comes to replacing that RBC132 (which looks suspiciously like 4x the smaller style battery I've seen in things like house alarms)

 

Why is everything so complicated 🤔

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25 minutes ago, Dal1980 said:

"The SUA and SMT are pretty similar. The major differences are the SMT has the LCD, a higher online efficiency (green mode), and utilizes a micro-link language instead of the old APC link language. Honestly you can't go wrong with either, both will work great for your mac pro."

I agree "can't go wrong either", for ( green mode ) I also take account too, I m not sure I correct or not, green mode means when UPS online ( not on battery ) will generate less heat, those heat are proportional with how many loading apply to UPS. If you set this, I think it will loss the AVR function, this is drwaback, but if your AC mains stable enough, then no need care, it also a good feature.

 

Below is a temperature measurement FYR, T4 are the UPS surrounding temp, you will found it always higher then room temperature ~4C, it only apply ~170w loading actually, that means UPS also use lot of power.

T.thumb.png.3ebb593ac236554eb00b6f4a6a345890.png

 

For the communication language, I haven't much idea, but I think NUT or APCUPSD most use "old" language to communicate.

 

 

Edited by Benson
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8 hours ago, Dal1980 said:

@Benson - based on your experience would you recommend SUA? I'm starting to wonder if I should just buy the SUA750 now and revisit this whole topic again when I've got a little more experience with these things 😔

Because no one can confirm how good of those used unit, so I agree spend as less as possible. If spend in double, then you may consider Cyberpower new unit, it seems in same price range, but I m not family with Cyberpower, I only have APC.

 

For battery, like mention before, I won't buy from APC, I will DIY to replace it. I have replace battery in 2 times, 1st at got the fault unit ( 5yrs ago ) and 2nd just 2 weaks ago.

Edited by Benson
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Good points however I will get 1 year warranty with this company but after that I'm on my own. I definitely have no interest in purchasing directly from APC for replacement batteries.

 

You've helped me make my mind up I think.  SUA750rmi2u it is

 

Many thanks for the help 😄

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5 hours ago, Dal1980 said:

RBC132 (which looks suspiciously like 4x the smaller style battery I've seen in things like house alarms)

You are probably right. Many "proprietary" APC batteries are simply generic 12VxAH batteries with a liberal application of labels, wires, and double stick foam tape. They should be easy to reverse engineer with some application of force where needed and swapping the wiring to the new batteries.

 

That specific pack looks like 4 12V7Ah batteries to me.

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One more thing need to consider, nf ( no front cover ) and norgc ( no orginal battery cage ), I don't think nf have problem, but if norgc then you need disassemble top cover for battery replacement, you also need disconnect everything to pullout 22kg monster from rack ( if its top haven't enough space for the work )  may be seller build the battery pack which can slide in/out.

Edited by Benson
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2 hours ago, jonathanm said:

You are probably right. Many "proprietary" APC batteries are simply generic 12VxAH batteries with a liberal application of labels, wires, and double stick foam tape. They should be easy to reverse engineer with some application of force where needed and swapping the wiring to the new batteries.

 

That specific pack looks like 4 12V7Ah batteries to me.

Agreed - one affordable supplier - https://www.tayna.co.uk/ups-batteries/f/apc/rbc132/ - (I have only bought from them, no other connection.)

 

Actually, I have used their site (and Google to find out APC equivalent batteries) and then I buy a decent brand (Yuasa, Lucas, or similar) of the same type.  The only difference may sometimes be the size of the spade terminals on the batteries themselves, but that's easy to take care of with some spare connectors, decent thick wire and a crimp tool.

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7 hours ago, Benson said:

One more thing need to consider, nf ( no front cover ) and norgc ( no orginal battery cage ), I don't think nf have problem, but if norgc then you need disassemble top cover for battery replacement, you also need disconnect everything to pullout 22kg monster from rack ( if its top haven't enough space for the work )  may be seller build the battery pack which can slide in/out.

To be honest I'd missed making a connection to "nf" being no front cover and completely missed "norgc" as I thought it was all just part of some weird model number "SUA750rmi2u-nf-norgc". I did however read about there being no front cover which is strange why none of his listings have these. If there's no cage for the battery then I guess I can either make one (maybe) or not worry about it if I'm only going to be changing this every 2-5 years or whenever.

 

@S80_UK - thanks, I'll check out that link. Being in the UK myself (fyi: North East England), I need to hear about these useful websites as I already contacted battery shark and they don't deliver to UK unfortunately and I hear they are quite good too, shame. Tayna looks good, added.

 

@jonathanm - cool, well I'm reasonably 'handy' so might be able to manage if links such as Tayna don't work out. When I was a kid, the day I found out that pencil (AA) batteries were made up of a row of watch batteries turned my world up-side-down, I've never trusted the Matrix since ;)

 

Thanks guys, this is all great stuff

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