Low-power 2023+ Intel N & U series boards (all form factors) + info on turnkey solutions

[eicar]

Turnkey update: Ugreen NASync DXP2400 (2-bay) and Ugreen NASync DXP4800 (4-bay) to be released in a couple of months, both using the N100 CPU.

 

No official page on their site at the moment, but here is one from the Google cache:

archived: https://archive.is/saRkb

original: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https%3A%2F%2Fnasync.ugreen.com%2F

 

And an article here:

German: https://www.computerbase.de/2024-01/ugreen-nasync-neun-nas-mit-intel-cpus-und-10-gbe-enthuellt/

Google Translate: https://www-computerbase-de.translate.goog/2024-01/ugreen-nasync-neun-nas-mit-intel-cpus-und-10-gbe-enthuellt/?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en

 

Both will come with two M.2 SSD slots, probably x1, one or two 2.5GbE NICs depending on the model, and only 8 GB of DDR5 memory, which you can update to 16 GB (officially), and maybe to 32 GB (inofficially).

 

Unclear if you'll be able to install Unraid, but I assume it will be possible, similar to TerraMaster, Asustor et al.

Edited January 11 by eicar

[dopeytree]

Nice like the look of the 8bay machine.. thats enough to make it work. 

 

[hansan]

Just to share my experience: 

I use a CW-N305-NAS I3-N305 motherboard for my unraid system. 

https://cwwk.net/products/cwwk-n100-i3-n305-six-bay-nas-monster-board-4x-2-5g-6x-sata3-0-2x-m-2-nvme-115x-radiator-itx-board-type-motherboard

(2x NVME cache, 3x WD RED disks, 32Gbyte memory, Pico PSU)

 

I have "only" 1Gb network at home and only a few users.  The limited amount of PCIe lanes is not a real limitation because the network is anyhow the bottleneck.  The processor is nice and quick; no complain about the performance of the system.

 

What is a big disappointment is the power consumption; according to Intel a TDP of 15W, but with this mainboard and disks is it more like 20 ~ 40W (from the wall) and I have not much luck yet to bring that really down. The usages of powertop crashes the computer.

 

I think that these "Chinese" boards are too feature loaded and not really designed for low power. I am kind of jealous of others with normal CPU's and reporting 7W.   I think that you can better study a bit more and get board from a big name with a previous generation processor.  That gives probable a bigger change on a low Watt system.

Edited January 24 by hansan
Fixed link

[mavrrick]

Keep in mind many of those folks reporting 2-7 watts of power usage are getting that with bare minimal hardware configured just to test with. You mention 2 NVME and 3 hard drives. I would also bet you included a fan or two. 

 

To test your power usage power down and disconnect those 3 hard drives and any fans you have running. Then when you power on go into the bios and turn off anything that isn't needed like HD audio, or any other devices. Also disconnect any USB devices that are not needed to boot.  The more you can simply turn off the better.

 

Then power it on and let it stabilize that would be your comparable power draw to those 2-7 watt systems.

 

I also found recently found that my cwwk N305 4x2.5gbps mini pc had some some strange power settings for the CPU and Package power limits. I would suggest you go into there and set them to "0" so that the cpu can run as designed unless. That may help with performance. 

 

I have found now i can achieve better high end clocks and complete work faster. i also cruise along with 4 NVME drives at around 15 watts. 

 

If you load the get the intel driver loaded and use GPU Stats you can see the processor package power on the Unraid Dashboard. The processor does power way down to under 1 watt at times so it is the rest of the gear that is driving the power usage.

[eicar]

Another factor might be the SATA chipset: the CWWK uses the JMB585, and from what I could gather online, unlike e.g. the ASMedia ASM1166, the JMicron chipset apparently doesn't support ASPM (device sleep), and if true, then with a NAS board based on the JMB585 you would be drawing more power at idle than with one that uses an ASM11xx.

 

However, in their specs PDF for the JMB585, JMicron actually state that they support not only "PCIe link layer power saving mode", but also "SATA link power saving mode (partial and slumber)" and "SATA Partial / Slumber power management state".

 

So I can't say for sure if the reports about problems with JMicron & ASPM are true. Maybe one of you knows more about those chipsets with regard to power management.

 

JMB585 etc.: https://www.jmicron.com/products/list/15

ASM1166: https://www.asmedia.com.tw/product/45aYq54sP8Qh7WH8/58dYQ8bxZ4UR9wG5

 

Edited January 25 by eicar

[mavrrick]

21 hours ago, hansan said:

to Intel a TDP of 15W

 

Keep in mind that isn't the amount of Power the processor will draw exactly, but more like guidelines when designing the cooling solution for the processor. That just means you need to have a solution that can dissipate that much heat.

 

I would really suggest checking the bios as I found some strange settings that didn't make sense for processor package and CPU power limits. You can also potentially be loosing boost if your cooling solution is better then what the processor spec is designed for. 

 

With the bios default settings my CPU would ramp down to a Configured power of 10 watts when all cores were being pushed. and stay that way. It was hard set that way. That would limit the CPU to 1.8Ghz when all 8 cores were under heavy load. Just by removing the limits now my cpu will boost to 3.x ghz and then after about 30 seconds it will drop to 2.3ghz instead of 1.8ghz. With full load it cruises around 57c. So that is a boost of 500mhz simply by removing that setting. All of that ofcourse doesn't help your idle power though. 

 

 

 

 

[hansan]

On 1/24/2024 at 11:46 PM, mavrrick said:

I also found recently found that my cwwk N305 4x2.5gbps mini pc had some some strange power settings for the CPU and Package power limits. I would suggest you go into there and set them to "0" so that the cpu can run as designed unless. That may help with performance.

Do you have some more information on what setting that was?

On 1/24/2024 at 11:46 PM, mavrrick said:

If you load the get the intel driver loaded and use GPU Stats you can see the processor package power on the Unraid Dashboard. The processor does power way down to under 1 watt at times so it is the rest of the gear that is driving the power usage.

Which driver do I need for this?  I don't see this at this moment in the Dashboard.

 

Is there some where some more documentation / website / forum post which gives some advice how to configure this motherboard such that you get the optimal performance (speed or low power etc.)?  My focus is more to get average power consumption down.

 

The Bios is quite overwhelming with very many options which are not so clear what they do and what optimal is.

 

My board is actually one of a complete family of similar boards like the Topton N5105/N6005 or these DC N100/N305 or N100/N305 boards. All with a JMB585 to expand the sata and 4x i226-V 2.5G Ethernet interfaces.

It would be nice to know how others have configured these boards and what kind of power consumption they really get.

[dopeytree]

In an ideal world the motherboard would use a ASM1166 chip for sata ports as this has ASPM support. 

[mavrrick]

2 hours ago, hansan said:

Do you have some more information on what setting that was?

 

You need to check the BIOS under the CPU performance and power section. In there under a few menu options you will find CPU Package and CP Power Limit settings. Your BIOS for your board may have those settings set to something other then 0 which mean it i not following default cpu settings. You can also set it to 9 watts limit the power used. 

 

You also want to go through the bios and turn off anything in the bios that isn't actually used. Any part on the board that isn't being used but powered can add to the idle power envelop. In my case i turned off things like the Audio, or Sata controller. 

 

Remember my setup isn't one of the NAS boards so i can't speak exactly for your setup.

 

If you add "i915.alpha_support=1" to your boot config on for unraid it enables the video driver

 

 

Then you can add these plugins to your install 

 

 

Once the plugin is configured you will have a dashboard item like this 

 

 

When configuring the GPU Statistics plugin to get the power usage make sure you set the "Power Draw Selection" value to "Max of GPU or Package" 

 

 

[pakosalze]

On 1/24/2024 at 3:51 PM, hansan said:

(2x NVME cache, 3x WD RED disks, 32Gbyte memory, Pico PSU)

........

but with this mainboard and disks is it more like 20 ~ 40W (from the wall)

@Hansan did you measure power draw also without all connected "stuff" but only with USB Unraid boot stick and without any services/plugins running? I wonder that most of your power draw comes from disks? I have N100 miniPC with SATA adapter and did the tests with Proxmox/Unraid. When I put my 2 SATA Ironwolf disks to sleep there are only additional 2W (up to 10W in Total), but when disks are spinning they add additional 15W. Now I am going to build full NAS with NAS chasis (Jonsbo N3) and looking for full mainboard. I see that CWWK is one of the best in terms of feature it have. But still wonder if it will be comparable in terms of Watts in comparison to my miniPC. Your observation would definitely help.

[dopeytree]

Most of the CWWK n100 / n305 boards use a JMB sata chipset which will cause higher wattage. Still not much on such a low power build but the only board I can see of theirs with a ASMedia chip is the one with the sideway pcie slot. Which will not fit neatly into a case although you could use some pcie risers to make it all work.

Edited February 2 by dopeytree

[hansan]

On 2/2/2024 at 9:03 AM, pakosalze said:

@Hansan did you measure power draw also without all connected "stuff" but only with USB Unraid boot stick and without any services/plugins running? I wonder that most of your power draw comes from disks? I have N100 miniPC with SATA adapter and did the tests with Proxmox/Unraid. When I put my 2 SATA Ironwolf disks to sleep there are only additional 2W (up to 10W in Total), but when disks are spinning they add additional 15W. Now I am going to build full NAS with NAS chasis (Jonsbo N3) and looking for full mainboard. I see that CWWK is one of the best in terms of feature it have. But still wonder if it will be comparable in terms of Watts in comparison to my miniPC. Your observation would definitely help.

The roughly 20W was measured at the wall with a fresh Unraid out of the box with 2 fans (CPU + Case) and 2 nvme disks.  No power saving settings in bios or in Unraid. That means cpu governor on "performance".  And all hardware working (like 4xLan, audio, etc.)

The roughly 40W was the same condition but with 3 WD RED plus 8TB disks (5400rpm CMR) runing. 

 

I do need to double check these numbers: the disks should have added only 3x5~6W so my 40W is probably too high.  And I should remeasure with my CPU governor on "powersave" and the disks idle.

 

And with the help of the information of  @mavrrick I was able to activate the power monitoring and I could "reduce" it from 10W to roughly 4W (with multiple containers running).

 

However while my processor cores are reaching C7 is my package C state only C2 or maybe C3.  And I do not know yet how to get that to a better power level.

 

I also did not manage to enable ASPM .....  

So there are (for me) still many open items.

 

 

 

[dopeytree]

I've just ordered one of these aliexpress specials 'ERYING Motherboard with Onboard 13th gen CPU  i5 13500H  DDR4'. Will report back once it arrives. £260.

 

Specs:

8 efficiency cores & 4 performance cores. (laptop cpu)

2x DDR4 slots

1Gb lan (the ddr5 models have 2.5Gb lans but then Id have to buy ddr5 ram)

2x sata ports

2x m.2 slots (pcie4.0 x4)

Expansion pcie4.0 x8 slot + a pcie3.0 x4 slot

So already more than a n100 & or n305 board. 

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006144634993.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.15.21ef18026B6KO7

 

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/232147/intel-core-i513500h-processor-18m-cache-up-to-4-70-ghz/specifications.html

Edited February 7 by dopeytree

[mavrrick]

CWWK just droped a new MB that includes a AMD Ryzen 7840HS Embedded processor. Also has a ton of drive ability with 9 sata connections 

 

From a processing ability perspective this is a powerhouse. I wonder how it will do power wise. 

 

https://cwwk.net/collections/frontpage/products/cwwk-amd-7735hs-7840hs-8845hs-7940hs-8-bay-9-bay-nas-usb4-40g-rate-8k-display-4-network-2-5g-9-sata-pcie-x16-itx-motherboard

[dopeytree]

Very nice. Good to see more sata ports.

Edited February 8 by dopeytree

[chunko]

Does anyone know AMD equivalent of those lineups? (6~10w, max 15w under load)
Currently I'm looking for any sane low power consumption CPU for passive cooling system.

The problem, while searching for those boards, is that the fact they are actually pulling A LOT of powers when they gets under load and doesn't supporting RAM dual channels.
No matter of lineups (except U300, N50 because they simply non-existent on market and i can't find any benchmarks), all of them seems to be spiking up to 30W (regardless of 8core vs 4core differences, what the fuck?), which isn't really 6W (or 15w) CPU. I rather call that as Intel's dirty trickery to confuse the consumers..

Practically they just worth nothing if they requires 20W+ on load, as AMD's 5000~7000 HS/U lineups would be ten times better than them if they are also manually power limited at 20W. but that's not standard chip usage for it and again, there seems to be none mini-itx boards with those AMD CPUs or APUs but mini-PCs only

if anyone can find them with sane price unlike CWWK's... , please, reply on here for god's sake!

 

Edited February 9 by chunko

[eicar]

Shenzhen Gowin have released three 1U rackmount solutions based on the N100 and i3-N305, including a fanless option… well, semi-fanless (see below). These actually show very well, what you could theoretically achieve with a low-power CPU that has only nine lanes of PCIe 3.0. These machines are primarily meant as a router/firewall and small server, but maybe it's possible to tweak them for home NAS/server use.

The N305 flagship models come with either two 25GbE SFP28 ports, provided by an NVIDIA ConnectX-4 Lx (formerly Mellanox), using the MCX4421A-ACQN chipset, or with two 10GbE SFP+ ports (NIC/chipset unknown). Note: I might have read somewhere that the Mellanox/NVIDIA/Acquantia NICs don't play well in terms of power management/saving, and that Intel NICs/chipsets are superior in this regard.

Gowin GW-BS-1UR2-25G (32GB RAM): https://www.gowinfanless.com/products/network-device/1u-2u-server/gw-bs-1ur2-25g

Gowin GW-BS-1UR2-10G (32GB RAM): https://www.gowinfanless.com/products/network-device/1u-2u-server/gw-bs-1ur2-10g

The base model (N100) "only" comes with dual 10GbE SFP+.

Gowin GW-BS-1UR1-10G (only 16GB RAM): https://www.gowinfanless.com/products/network-device/1u-2u-server/gw-bs-1ur1-10g

As for storage, the servers provide two PCIe 3.0 M.2 NVMe slots at x1 speed, and two SATA ports.

You could add four more SATA ports with two M.2-to-dual-SATA adapters using the ASMedia ASM1061 chipset (PCIe 2.0 x1 to dual SATA), but you would lose both M.2 slots. You could go with a single quad-SATA or even 6-port SATA solution (ASM1164 or ASM1166), while retaining one M.2 slot, but the SATA drive speeds would be capped at 250 MB/s max and 166 MB/s respectively, because even though the ASM11xx chipsets support PCIe 3.0 x2, the M.2 slots are only x1.

At any rate, there seems to be enough space inside the 1U chassis to house four additional 2.5 inch SATA SSDs. You would just need to solve the SATA power issue, either with splitter cables or with a different PSU or maybe some adapter cables for the built-in PSU.

Speaking of: the PSU has a fan, so even the "fanless" model wouldn't be quiet, but you can replace the fan… or maybe even the PSU. (?)

Back to NAS/server use… one fundamental problem: to accomodate for all the I/O, the two built-in SATA ports are actually not the usual native ports; according to ServerTheHome, the server seems to be using an ASMedia ASM1153E chipset for USB3-to-SATA conversion instead… and I can't say if this would work well with Unraid or ZFS.

But all in all, it shows that you can do a lot with only 9 lanes of PCIe.

 

What about power consumption? According to STH, who have tested the i3-N305 25G model, the idle consumption (afaik without storage) is around 27–29W, whereas the 25G NIC would be gobbling up at least 10–12W of that. (It would be less, of course, with a dual SFP+ NIC.) Under load it's about 51W maximum. I assume that the high idle consumption is also due to all the I/O built into these machines, so it's not really a good solution for a home NAS/server imho. And according to one user report at STH, the board, even when the CPU & system have been shut down, will still draw 15W.

Edited February 9 by eicar
M.2 SATA

[mavrrick]

2 hours ago, chunko said:

Currently I'm looking for any sane low power consumption CPU for passive cooling system.

 

The one I have been discussing here is from CWWK, and is the N305 v1 version of their 4x2.5GB mini pc. If you got it now it, the V2 is the one being sold with some additional front IO. It isn't bad when it is just running, but you are right in that when under load its power consumption goes up a far amount. That is all based on the chips ability to boost, and not exactly what needs to be it's typical load.  A few things of note.

 

1. The Power adapter that comes with these unit's isn't great i believe. It seems to draw 3 watts of power without even being connected. It makes me wonder what it's efficiency is. (This is why my current plug monitoring it says.)

2. The Nxxx series of CPU's have a minimum assured and regular TDP. You can set the bios to max the chip at a certain package power usage. I removed that limit to allow my N305 to achieve 2.3ghz under full load on all cores, If i didn't do that it would go down to 1.8 after a short boost period. During that boost period it can even pull more power then then 15 watt tdp

3. You have to remember power usage isn't a cpu only thing, but also about the peripherals. If your device has a bunch of extra things connected then power usage will go up. So to get a accurate power usage number for the processor you need to disconnect devices and turn off anything you can in the bios.

 

2 hours ago, chunko said:

if anyone can find them with sane price unlike CWWK's.

 

This is subjective. What would you consider a sane price. The N305 in the rig i have is a pretty powerful setup. 

 

My current CWWK Mini PC with the N305, 32GB or ram, 4 NVME drives with the 4x NVME Expansion card, a 120MM Fan, Unraid Flash drive,  Wireless keyboard USB adapter, USB to my UPS. idles around 15-17 watts. It will ramp up to around 40 watts under the right load conditions.

 

When talking about low power it is always about at idle states though. You are just not going to get 6 watts under full load on pretty much anything unless you are forcing that as a limit. Chips nowadays are rated for a minimum performance guarantee and then designed to scale up to there thermal solution and take advantage of the headroom they have based on their design. The N305 for example has a base clock of 800mhz and is guaranteed to be clockable to 1.8ghz, but it can boost to 3.8-3.9ghz i believe. That high click speed is based on thermal and energy headroom of the rig the chip is running in. those boost clocks will push the power usage up though. 

 

This is my unit.

https://cwwk.net/collections/frontpage/products/12th-gen-intel-firewall-mini-pc-alder-lake-i3-n305-8-core-n200-n100-fanless-soft-router-proxmox-ddr5-4800mhz-4xi226-v-2-5g?variant=44613920555240

 

Here is a AMD Ryzen option from CWWK

 

https://cwwk.net/collections/frontpage/products/amd-ryzen-r5-5600u-r7-5800u-r7-5825u-low-power-8-core-16-thread-soft-routing-mini-host-i226-v-aluminum-case-1

 

Lastly if you are wanting a NAS board made with AMD there is this option

 

https://cwwk.net/collections/frontpage/products/cwwk-amd-7735hs-7840hs-8845hs-7940hs-8-bay-9-bay-nas-usb4-40g-rate-8k-display-4-network-2-5g-9-sata-pcie-x16-itx-motherboard

Edited February 9 by mavrrick

[eicar]

Biostar BIADN-IHT (Mini ITX) with options for N97, N100 and i3-N305.

 

https://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/ipc/introduction.php?S_ID=92

 

Not really suited for a NAS build: only one native SATA, only one M.2 Key M x1 slot, no PCIe slot.

[dopeytree]

Remember to keep it all in perspectiv. i.e that a single spinning drive can use 1w standby and up to 10w when spinning. 

 

My current system uses 100w idle so anything down from that is a win. 16x drives. 135TB. All drives go to standbye asap. The biggest drawer is the cpu. It has a 35w 11900t but I tell you tdp is bullshit as it hardly ever stays at 35w because the cpu core is 900mhz which is too slow for anything. This is why I seeking a newer cpu with split efficiency & performance cores so that hopefully it can turn the performance cores off.

Edited February 9 by dopeytree

[chunko]

23 hours ago, mavrrick said:

~snip~

Thanks for the reply, and i do agree what you said except intel part you spoken of; again, if they needs 15~20W+ for actual "performance" as specified on sheet, it's just terrible scam. (unless they actually pushes U300 to OEM partners, but im fairly certain it would be same in the end)

AMD's counterpart U series can do so much more than them with manually limited TDP. the only reason that im considering n100 is that there are no such AMD replacements as ITX boards. i do see some Mini-PC deals, but they are out of scope for me due to it's terrible expandableness, and non-fanless enviroment. (but at least they have dual-channel ram ) 

Only if AMD folks are giving official interests in those area, instead of OEM folks doing some dark magic stuff to build up some ITX stuff with laptop series CPUs... 

[mavrrick]

3 hours ago, chunko said:

it's just terrible scam.

 Here is Intels documentation for the chip from Intel ARK

 

The designed TDP is 15 watts with a Max Turbo is Freq of 3.8 

 

You are confusing different things. Max power with TDP. Unfortunately, vendors define TDP differently

 

Intel defines it as:

 

The CPU Package on my setup will level at 15 watts after a brief boost period. So this seems pretty accurate. Don't confuse Max Boost clock speed with power usage. 

 

The N100 shows this in Intel ARK

 

 

So the package power will drop to 6 watts once the boost period is over. which is generally about 30 seconds. 

 

Ofcourse this is all assuming that the bios isn't configured to override it. I also found that my unit was set from the factory to actually limit the package power to 10 watts instead of 15 which is default.

 

You also can't forget that the total power of the system is not necessarily reflective of CPU power usage. My unit idles around 10-17 watts. I have hooked up a different power meter and i am seeing larger dips now. But the CPU Package for Video and cpu often is under 1 watt based on the package sensors. 

 

The last link in my post above was a new AMD option from CWWK with a Ryzen 7840HS cpu. You may want to look at that.

Edited February 10 by mavrrick

[mavrrick]

Just for giggles I went in the bios and configured my n305 to only allow 6 watts for the power package and that is now showing. So you can limit it's power usage to 6 watts if you want.

 

While in the BIOS the power levels that were present by default allowed for a power usage up to 35 watts for 30 seconds (ie Max Boost) and then 15 watts under continuous loads. My unit got about 2.3Ghz under full load once the boost was over

 

With the processor package limited to 6 watts, I was able to achieve 1.2ghz clock speed on all cores. Power of my setup with the entire board is around 22 watts. The temps also dropped from just under 60C to 40-41C. That is my rig though with 4nvme drives, the pcie 4x4 carrier board from cwwk,  2 2.5ghz nics, a usb fan, a usb drive for unraid, usb reciever for keyboard, and a usb cable to the ups. There is certainly overhead with the rest of the board and such.

 

 

Edited February 10 by mavrrick

[mavrrick]

It would be very interesting to see a AMD Ryzen CPU performance compared at that locked power package for comparable hardware. 

[chunko]

1 hour ago, mavrrick said:

vendors define TDP differently

that's why im keep saying that as an example of "scams". they defines what it used to be to their twisted, "custom defined" definition which is horrible. oh well, that's what they do as they lost their tech supremacy of industry... also think about intel 7 - they "termed" it well to be tricked as 7nm process, but in fact it's just "custom defined" 10nm process, as their definition. you can't say that sort of things are fine, by all means. trickery is still a trickery.

 

55 minutes ago, mavrrick said:

Just for giggles I went in the bios and configured my n305 to only allow 6 watts for the power package and that is now showing. So you can limit it's power usage to 6 watts if you want.

 

I am aware of that. but again, what's the meaning of that when it's performance goes pure dogshit as i mentioned earlier? it's meme, you know it, i know it, everybody knows it. they shouldn't be called as 6W cpu if they cannot be realistically usable on that TDP. hell they can be on that TDP only if they are idle xD, not sure how they can be called as 6W CPU by all meaning as so many other CPUs can do same on idle state.
 

50 minutes ago, mavrrick said:

It would be very interesting to see a AMD Ryzen CPU performance compared at that locked power package for comparable hardware. 

 

not just interesting, it's god damn impressive. that's why I'm looking for AMD boards for now.

7840HS (it's basically boost unlocked 7840U)
https://www.reddit.com/r/AMDLaptops/comments/178k7v5/7840hs_benchmarked_at_various_tdp/

it's jawdropping. Single 2240, Multi 5520 on 10W limited - this is the true low TDP CPU, unlike 30W garbage N100.
think about that N100 struggles to hold Single 1200 Multi 3000 on boosted 30W. it's just absurd such CPU claims "low and efficient" CPU. only if AMD allowed these officially to be usable for industry ITX boards to OEM partners, NAS and low-power, small server meta would had cataclysm just like UMPC market 

Edited February 10 by chunko