electron286 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 - - - low power for the future... I think that may be a real move to extreme low power server products using ARM based architecture CPUs! :-) I thought it would be more like 5 years away, but it looks like it will be MUCH sooner! I have been VERY impressed with the Raspberry Pi, and started looking for server applications, and discovered that China has already LAUNCHED a cloud server platform based on ARM. http://gigaom.com/2013/02/20/first-arm-based-servers-in-production-support-baidus-cloud-storage Also Fedora has teamed up to also deploys ARM-Based Servers for Fedora Project! http://www.eweek.com/servers/red-hat-deploys-arm-based-servers-for-fedora-project/ Dell and Hewlett-Packard also have announced ARM based servers... as well as others! Marvell has also offered 32-bit ARM-based server chips for a little while to integrators to incorporate in motherboard designs. This sounds REALLY exciting to me! Quote Link to comment
electron286 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Nice board, but buy this instead: http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=MB-X7SPA5 The one listed at Newegg uses a D510; the newer board uses a D525. There's an even newer version coming out very shortly, but it's got fewer SATA ports, so I'd stay with the D525 board. Note that IF the ICH9R supports port multipliers, you don't need the -MV8 board ... you can just use the Addonics port multipliers [it may be more convenient internally to mount this version of the port multiplier: http://www.shopaddonics.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=AD5SARPM%2DE&eq=&Tp= (depends on what case you're using -- if your case have available slots; the slot-mounted version is better; if not, this might be easier to attach at an arbitrary spot or in an available bay) Thanks for the updated MB recommendation! Sounds like the D525 is the one for me at this time to play with next then! :-) The reason I will go with the SAS-MV8 and also a port multiplier, is to have more hardware to test, that I do not already have. Both the SAS-MV8 and the port multiplier will end up in numerous test machines running benchmarks as well as being used for compatibility tests... including testing on OLDER hardware combinations... Where any of the items will actually finially end up is yet unknown, but the first tests will be together to see performamce bottle-necks as well as compatibility. Quote Link to comment
electron286 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 It also looks like there is this... Slackware ARM on the Raspberry Pi... Does this also equate to future possibilities, possibly not too far off, of running unRAID on the new and upcoming ARM based server products? Just wondering... Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Are you sure the Highpoint 2760 isn't using a built in expander to increase the port count to 24? I know another 24 port controller was essentially an 8 port controller with a built in expander and would therefore just split the bandwidth similar to using a 8 port controller and external expander - at least based on a review I read written by a purchaser. The Highpoint would be almost certain to use less power however. Looked up the Marvell 9485 and it turns out the full designation is Marvell 88SE9485 ... so it's actually a member of the 88xx family. Also, it's a native 8-port device, so my initial suspicion was that it was indeed an 8-port card with a built-in expander. But a bit more searching and I confirmed that this is NOT the case -- the card actually uses 4 88SE9485's in a very high-performance arrangement that can actually get full bandwidth even with an array of SSDs !! Details are here: http://www.highpoint-tech.com/PDF/rr2700/RocketRAID%202760%20-%20Tweaktown%20Reveiw%2010-2-2010.pdf Still doesn't answer the question of whether or not it will work with UnRAID. Since it's based on an 88x series Marvell chip, it would seem like it does; but I don't know if the extra switching circuitry changes that outcome. One negative with regard to the intent of this thread (low power) ... one comment in the article I posted the link to is "... As you might imagine, all of those controller chips create some significant heat. You will need a powerful cooling system to keep the 2760 happy." While they don't mention specific power demands, clearly a system that's generating "significant heat" is drawing some fairly significant watts. Quote Link to comment
BobPhoenix Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Are you sure the Highpoint 2760 isn't using a built in expander to increase the port count to 24? I know another 24 port controller was essentially an 8 port controller with a built in expander and would therefore just split the bandwidth similar to using a 8 port controller and external expander - at least based on a review I read written by a purchaser. The Highpoint would be almost certain to use less power however. Looked up the Marvell 9485 and it turns out the full designation is Marvell 88SE9485 ... so it's actually a member of the 88xx family. Also, it's a native 8-port device, so my initial suspicion was that it was indeed an 8-port card with a built-in expander. But a bit more searching and I confirmed that this is NOT the case -- the card actually uses 4 88SE9485's in a very high-performance arrangement that can actually get full bandwidth even with an array of SSDs !! Details are here: http://www.highpoint-tech.com/PDF/rr2700/RocketRAID%202760%20-%20Tweaktown%20Reveiw%2010-2-2010.pdf Still doesn't answer the question of whether or not it will work with UnRAID. Since it's based on an 88x series Marvell chip, it would seem like it does; but I don't know if the extra switching circuitry changes that outcome. One negative with regard to the intent of this thread (low power) ... one comment in the article I posted the link to is "... As you might imagine, all of those controller chips create some significant heat. You will need a powerful cooling system to keep the 2760 happy." While they don't mention specific power demands, clearly a system that's generating "significant heat" is drawing some fairly significant watts. Great. Now if it would work with unRAID and could get it down in price to maybe $400-500 I would be wishing I went this route instead of M1015s and expander. Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Now if it would work with unRAID and could get it down in price to maybe $400-500 I would be wishing I went this route instead of M1015s and expander. Yes, it looks like a VERY nice card. Now if somebody would just spring for one and test it with UnRAID ... [i'll be happy to test it and post the results if somebody wants to buy me the card ] Quote Link to comment
Pauven Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Looked up the Marvell 9485 and it turns out the full designation is Marvell 88SE9485 ... so it's actually a member of the 88xx family. Also, it's a native 8-port device, so my initial suspicion was that it was indeed an 8-port card with a built-in expander. But a bit more searching and I confirmed that this is NOT the case -- the card actually uses 4 88SE9485's in a very high-performance arrangement that can actually get full bandwidth even with an array of SSDs !! Details are here: http://www.highpoint-tech.com/PDF/rr2700/RocketRAID%202760%20-%20Tweaktown%20Reveiw%2010-2-2010.pdf Still doesn't answer the question of whether or not it will work with UnRAID. Since it's based on an 88x series Marvell chip, it would seem like it does; but I don't know if the extra switching circuitry changes that outcome. One negative with regard to the intent of this thread (low power) ... one comment in the article I posted the link to is "... As you might imagine, all of those controller chips create some significant heat. You will need a powerful cooling system to keep the 2760 happy." While they don't mention specific power demands, clearly a system that's generating "significant heat" is drawing some fairly significant watts. That's good to know that the 2760 uses supported 88x Marvel chips, though perhaps not the switching chip. I think I'll go ahead and pick one up (once I verify the return policy) to test in my current server, before I buy any other components. The 2760/2760A is the only board I found that truly delivers on the bandwidth front, with a very unique arrangement of four 88SE9485's, though technically only 3 of the 4 are used on the 2760A. Highpoint also sells a 2782, with 2 more ports (external this time) that make use of the 4th chip, and supports a total of 32 drives. I think the 4th chip is still present on the 2760, just not utilized. HighPoint also sells lower end versions of the same basic board, like the 2740, which could give someone a more affordable way to test the chipset. Regarding heat, the spec sheets show a maximum of 45 watts (35W on the 12V, and 10W on the 3.3V). I've been using that figure in my power supply calculations. I think 45W is reasonable for what this card does. Some users have installed a small cooling fan on the heat sink to deal with the heat, which is probably a good idea. Also consider that this card supports several hardware RAID modes that will not be utilized with an unRAID build, so I'm slightly hopeful it won't draw the full wattage rating in this use case. I really wish they made a 250W PicoPSU... CPU: 55W Chipset: 20W Memory: 5W 2760A: 45W Fans: 5W 24 HD: 106W Total: 236W Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Looked up the Marvell 9485 and it turns out the full designation is Marvell 88SE9485 ... so it's actually a member of the 88xx family. Also, it's a native 8-port device, so my initial suspicion was that it was indeed an 8-port card with a built-in expander. But a bit more searching and I confirmed that this is NOT the case -- the card actually uses 4 88SE9485's in a very high-performance arrangement that can actually get full bandwidth even with an array of SSDs !! Details are here: http://www.highpoint-tech.com/PDF/rr2700/RocketRAID%202760%20-%20Tweaktown%20Reveiw%2010-2-2010.pdf Still doesn't answer the question of whether or not it will work with UnRAID. Since it's based on an 88x series Marvell chip, it would seem like it does; but I don't know if the extra switching circuitry changes that outcome. One negative with regard to the intent of this thread (low power) ... one comment in the article I posted the link to is "... As you might imagine, all of those controller chips create some significant heat. You will need a powerful cooling system to keep the 2760 happy." While they don't mention specific power demands, clearly a system that's generating "significant heat" is drawing some fairly significant watts. That's good to know that the 2760 uses supported 88x Marvel chips, though perhaps not the switching chip. I think I'll go ahead and pick one up (once I verify the return policy) to test in my current server, before I buy any other components. The 2760/2760A is the only board I found that truly delivers on the bandwidth front, with a very unique arrangement of four 88SE9485's, though technically only 3 of the 4 are used on the 2760A. Highpoint also sells a 2782, with 2 more ports (external this time) that make use of the 4th chip, and supports a total of 32 drives. I think the 4th chip is still present on the 2760, just not utilized. HighPoint also sells lower end versions of the same basic board, like the 2740, which could give someone a more affordable way to test the chipset. Regarding heat, the spec sheets show a maximum of 45 watts (35W on the 12V, and 10W on the 3.3V). I've been using that figure in my power supply calculations. I think 45W is reasonable for what this card does. Some users have installed a small cooling fan on the heat sink to deal with the heat, which is probably a good idea. Also consider that this card supports several hardware RAID modes that will not be utilized with an unRAID build, so I'm slightly hopeful it won't draw the full wattage rating in this use case. I really wish they made a 250W PicoPSU... CPU: 55W Chipset: 20W Memory: 5W 2760A: 45W Fans: 5W 24 HD: 106W Total: 236W Is that your "target power consumption" list? If so, that's not a bad total for a 24 drive system with all drives active. At idle I'd expect much less ... probably 5W CPU, 15W chipset; 5W memory; 5W fans (unless they're temp controlled ... in which case this could be 0W); and 15W HD => a total in the 40-45W range PLUS whatever the 2760A draws -- which is the big unknown here. It'd be great to get some feedback on the 2760A ... I suspect there are quite a few folks who'd like to use a single 24-port card with no bandwidth issues !! As for a PSU => Given that the likely minimum power isn't going to be much below 60W (if at all), a 300W 80+ unit will be at 80% or better efficiency throughout the operating range. HOWEVER, with 24 drives, you need to be concerned about spin-up draws for the hard drives ... UnRAID is not going to take advantage of the RAID controller's staggered spinup feature, so you need to have significant current capabilities on the 12V bus. I'd use the excellent SeaSonic X-650 module unit: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151088 This is an 80+ Gold unit with > 87% efficiency at operating ranges (> 20%), so it'd be VERY efficient when the system was running; and although Seasonic doesn't show efficiency numbers for < 20% load, they do note that it's been optimized for high efficiency at idle power consumption ... so it's reasonable to assume it will still be more efficient than most units at the ~10% load you'd be drawing at idle. Quote Link to comment
Pauven Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Yes, that 236W power consumption is an estimated max parity check value. My best estimate for idle is around 45W. The 2760A does support staggered spin-up, and I was hoping this would work with unRAID. You know for sure that it won't? Do you think the 2760's staggered spin-up will work during the boot cycle, after power on and before unRAID has loaded? Doesn't unRAID support a software based staggered spin-up? I thought this feature had been added a few years ago, but maybe I'm mistaken and it was only requested, or maybe I'm confusing it with Spin-Up Groups. It doesn't sound like too hard of a feature to implement in software, but I'm not the expert. If Staggered Spin-Up is not available in all possible scenarios, you're absolutely right that I would need a larger power supply. From what I understand, the Red 3TB have a 21 watt spin-up. Other drives may be different, so I'll add 20% to that number and assume a 25W spin-up requirement per drive. With 24 drives, that's 600 watts, plus another 130W for the rest of the system, and I need to be looking at 750W power supplies... I hate this because the 20% efficiency range of the 80+ rated power supplies is pushed up to 150W. At idle, this box would only be pulling about 6% of the power supply's rating. Most power supplies are horrible below 10%. I really, really want staggered spin up. Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 The 2760A does support staggered spin-up, and I was hoping this would work with unRAID. You know for sure that it won't? Do you think the 2760's staggered spin-up will work during the boot cycle, after power on and before unRAID has loaded? ... Doesn't unRAID support a software based staggered spin-up? I thought this feature had been added a few years ago, but maybe I'm mistaken and it was only requested, or maybe I'm confusing it with Spin-Up Groups. It doesn't sound like too hard of a feature to implement in software, but I'm not the expert. ... I really, really want staggered spin up. No, I'm not certain that the staggered spin-up on the 2760A won't be effective -- but if you're only using it for the SATA ports, I suspect it won't, since it's the hardware RAID controller that would be effecting the spinup (and you're bypassing that with UnRAID). As near as I can tell, UnRAID does NOT stagger the spinups. There have been several threads on this; but there's still no "staggered spinup" option in the configuration pages for UnRAID ... I agree it'd be a nice feature on the disk settings page. There are few cases where UnRAID actually DOES spin up all the drives ==> when you click the "Spin Up All Drives" button; for a parity check; and when you click the Stop button to shut down the array. I think an average of 20W/drive is plenty for spinup requirements ... so a quality 650W unit is fine for 24 drives. There are quite a few folks using the Seasonic X650 with 24 drive systems on this forum ... and most of those are using drives with higher power demands than WD Reds. r.e. "... I really, really want staggered spin up. " ==> Me too. I don't understand why this isn't implemented in UnRAID. It would seem to be a fairly simple feature to add; and could be configurable via the Disk Settings page. Just for grins, I'll post a question r.e. staggered spinup and see if anyone has some insight as to (a) why it isn't implemented in UnRAID; and (b) if there are any plans to do so. Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Doesn't seem to be providing any real added insight to the topic, but here's the thread I started r.e. staggered spinup. You may be interested in the discussion: http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=27480.0 Quote Link to comment
Pauven Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Staggered spin-up would also help Tom on his server builds (smaller, cheaper power supplies and more efficient servers), but I just took a look at his Atom based server and he sells it with a 520W power supply by default, and offers a 650W upgrade option; my napkin based calculations lead me to believe a 400W power supply would be better suited to this 14-drive Atom based server, especially considering 4 of those drives are 2.5". I'm thinking energy efficiency isn't high on Tom's priority list. I'm not discounting that unRAID technology is the most energy efficient media serving fault tolerant server, since it only has to spin up a single drive to serve media, but without staggered spin-up the power supply can't be properly sized for maximum efficiency, especially for full-scale servers. I'm wondering if there's a way I could utilize multiple power supplies? I'm thinking along the lines of a PicoPSU for the motherboard itself, and one or two 'something else' power supplies for the HD array. With each of the power supplies being smaller, and more efficient, the total power consumption could come way down. Looking at these charts: http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=65244 The Seasonic X650 loses about 12W at 40W output (70% efficiency). The Seasonic SS-350TGM loses about 7W at the same output (82% efficiency). So the larger power supply costs an extra 5W of waste heat, turning this 45W idling server into a 50W idling server. A PicoPSU, being about 97% efficient, would lose about 1W. The picoPSU can handle peak currents of 15A on the 12V rail, or enough to spin-up 6-7 drives simultaneously... looks like I would need 5 of these (one for the motherboard, four for the 24 drives). Not exactly cost effective, assuming I could even make it work. Alternatively I could use one picoPSU, plus two more 12V power adapters, and some creative wiring... I recently designed and built a pinball machine from scratch, including the power supplies and power driver circuits for the solenoids. Perhaps I need to design and make a MEGApicoPSU that can handle a 24-drive server... Can't be that hard. Sounds like a fun challenge (yes, I'm weird like that). Thanks for starting the staggered spin-up topic! Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I've thought about using a PicoPSU on my Atom build for the same reason. I suspect I'm wasting at least 5W just due to power supply efficiency (or, more accurately, inefficiency) at such low loads. I didn't do it just because of concern about spinup draw ... but I may have to try that just for grins Quote Link to comment
MvL Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Maybe a wild idea and Tom has to allow more drives to use. Use one of these boxes: https://ri-vier.eu/external-4u-24-bay-6g-sassata-expander-rackmount-rvds24-p-310.html?cPath=1_40 and build a modular system with the use of http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115082 in JBOD mode. Quote Link to comment
Pauven Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Maybe a wild idea and Tom has to allow more drives to use. Use one of these boxes: https://ri-vier.eu/external-4u-24-bay-6g-sassata-expander-rackmount-rvds24-p-310.html?cPath=1_40 and build a modular system with the use of http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816115082 in JBOD mode. Hey MvL, not sure why Tom would have to allow more drives to use that case, as unRAID supports 24 drives, same as that case. The case uses port expanders, which I believe is the same thing as port multipliers. Bandwidth will be limited by the expanders, same as some of the other options we discussed in this thread. For the price (approx $1k), you are not getting $600 in value over a Norco 4224. I would stay away. Quote Link to comment
Pauven Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Now if it would work with unRAID and could get it down in price to maybe $400-500 I would be wishing I went this route instead of M1015s and expander. Yes, it looks like a VERY nice card. Now if somebody would just spring for one and test it with UnRAID ... [i'll be happy to test it and post the results if somebody wants to buy me the card ] I've been looking for a place to buy the 2760A that allows returns. So far, no dice. Every company seems to have some disclaimer, that ranges from no returns for opening or installing, to simply receiving it. If anyone finds a source for the Highpoint 2760A that allows returns (for an opened and installed product), please let me know. Thanks, Paul Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I don't see any exceptions to its return policy noted on Amazon -- which should mean it's returnable with no problem: http://www.amazon.com/HighPoint-RocketRAID-2760A-PCI-Express-Controller/dp/B003TY2HW8 They do require that items be returned "in new condition" ... but that doesn't mean you can't open them => I've returned severable items over the years with no problem. You may, just to be certain, want to e-mail their Customer Service link and ask specifically if this is returnable if you open it and it's not compatible with your system ... I was surprised to see that Newegg doesn't allow returns for this card. Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 By the way, while there's no guarantee, I do know for a fact that Newegg will, on occasion, waive their "Return for refund within: non-refundable" policy on certain items. It may depend on just how good a customer you are Probably not something you want to depend on; but if you've spent enough $$ with them over the years, you may be able to call them and get authorization to return the card if it doesn't work BEFORE you buy it. Quote Link to comment
Pauven Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Amazon's and NewEgg's (among many many others) return policies were just too risky for my to buy from them, especially considering I could be stuck with a very expensive paperweight. Luckily, ProVantage carries the 2760A, and they have a 30 day return policy, even used. Even better, the price was only $542! The savings paid for $78 worth of SFF-8087 cables (6 cables x $13). For once I'm glad NewEgg had such a horrible return policy, otherwise I would have never found this deal. Since they have such a generous return policy, I also picked up a Celeron G1610 CPU and Foxconn H61S Motherboard. Yes, the H61S is older, but it still supports Ivy Bridge, Gigabit Ethernet, DDR3-1600 memory and PCI 3.0 x16. The chipset is slightly lower voltage than H77's, plus the motherboard is barebones, so I'm not wasting any money or electricity on features I don't need for unRAID. I can't think of any features I'm missing on the newer H77 boards (upgraded audio, better video, USB 3.0). When it all comes in (maybe next week), I'll power it up and try unRAID on it. Quote Link to comment
MvL Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Interesting topic! Why not use the Celeron 1610T (low power model)? It has a TDP of 35 watts. Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Excellent -- good price too. Now I'll be on edge waiting for the results of the first boot with UnRAID !! Quote Link to comment
MvL Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 What do you think of this HBA card? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816118142 It's a bit cheaper but has 16 ports. So you need to have 6 ports on your motherboard if you want use all 24 bays. Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 What do you think of this HBA card? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816118142 It's a bit cheaper but has 16 ports. So you need to have 6 ports on your motherboard if you want use all 24 bays. For starters, it only has 1/4th of the bandwidth of the 2760A Quote Link to comment
Pauven Posted May 17, 2013 Author Share Posted May 17, 2013 Interesting topic! Why not use the Celeron 1610T (low power model)? It has a TDP of 35 watts. Good question. Both processors idle the same. The 1610T is capped on the high end (lower max frequency) to keep heat in check. This allows you to use the processor in smaller cases, with smaller fans, and with smaller power supplies. I wasn't worried about any of those issues. Since my only concern was idle power, I save the money and went with the regular 1610, which will also have a little extra performance. Quote Link to comment
garycase Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Interesting topic! Why not use the Celeron 1610T (low power model)? It has a TDP of 35 watts. Good question. Both processors idle the same. The 1610T is capped on the high end (lower max frequency) to keep heat in check. This allows you to use the processor in smaller cases, with smaller fans, and with smaller power supplies. I wasn't worried about any of those issues. Since my only concern was idle power, I save the money and went with the regular 1610, which will also have a little extra performance. Agree. There's virtually no reason to use the low-power versions of the i-series chips. As Pauven noted, the idle power is virtually identical ... it's only the max TDP that's "throttled" on the low-power chips. As long as you have ample power and cooling available, there's no reason to lose the extra "horsepower". In fact, I replaced a Core i5-2400S I had used in one of my HTPCs with an i7-2700K to have better transcoding performance; and when I did that there was NO difference in the idle power consumption ... but significantly better processing capability (and of course notably higher power consumption under load). Quote Link to comment
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