CableCard DVR in HTP which software?

[dgaschk]

Windows media center seems to offer to most functionality. It integrates multiple HD signals via cable. Can URAID act as storage for the DVR? How does this compare MythTV, SageTV, others?

[burtjr]

Not in the way you are probably hope. What I mean by this is you can't directly save your recordings to unRAID. What most of us do is copy over the saved recordings at some later dates. There are a few that have a script that will copy the recordings at specific times of the day.

[dgaschk]

What about premium content such as HBO or Showtime? Can these be copied to UnRAID?

[burtjr]

Should work as the other content, just not on the fly.

[madpoet]

And probably only playable back on the system that recorded them.

[Spectrum]

Right now the only PC based DVR that is able to use CableCard natively is WMC and it obeys the CCI flag.  Things that are marked as copy freely should be playable on any machine.  Things marked as copy once should only be playable the machine that recorded it, and things that are marked copy never won't be recordable at all.  Things that tend to get marked copy never are premium channels (HBO, Showtime, etc) and PPV events.  The CCI flag is set by the cable company and is at the whim of them and the content provider.  Just because something is copy freely today does not mean it will be copy freely tomorrow.

 

There is a 3rd party application that allows Sage to use WMC to record content that is marked as copy freely then merge the content into the Sage library and some users have confirmed this works with the Ceton card.

[dgaschk]

Are there a references to this type of info? I am investigating replacing a TIVO with HTPC. TIA.

 

David

[jimwhite]

Are there a references to this type of info? I am investigating replacing a TIVO with HTPC. TIA.

 

David

 

 

go here: http://www.avsforum.com and head to the HTPC sub-forum

 

[wsume99]

Things marked as copy once should only be playable the machine that recorded it

The copy once flag basically means you cannot move it off the machine that it was originally recorded onto.  So you can't record it to your WMC HTPC and then move it onto your unRAID server.  Major suck factor there.  If the file is marked copy freely you can move it to any PC you want - just like any other unencrypted content.

[jimwhite]

Things marked as copy once should only be playable the machine that recorded it

The copy once flag basically means you cannot move it off the machine that it was originally recorded onto.  So you can't record it to your WMC HTPC and then move it onto your unRAID server.  Major suck factor there.  If the file is marked copy freely you can move it to any PC you want - just like any other unencrypted content.

 

I don't believe this to be true...

 

[Spectrum]

Copy once means it get's drm wrapped and is only decodable by the machine that wrapped it; it doesn't matter where the file lives.

 

...In regards to Windows Media Center, shows marked Copy Once can only be played on the same PC in which they were recorded and the directly connected to an Extenders for Media Center like the Xbox 360...

 

I wouldn't quote wikipedia for a scholarly paper, but it suffices for forums

[wsume99]

Things marked as copy once should only be playable the machine that recorded it

The copy once flag basically means you cannot move it off the machine that it was originally recorded onto.  So you can't record it to your WMC HTPC and then move it onto your unRAID server.  Major suck factor there.  If the file is marked copy freely you can move it to any PC you want - just like any other unencrypted content.

 

I don't believe this to be true...

 

As far as I've read copy once means it can be written to a storage device only once.  Moving it to another device would be considered a second copy operation and that is not permitted.  Look at what it does to TiVo.  If you record a copy once show to your TiVo you cannot transfer that show (i.e. write it onto the HDD) onto another TiVO box in your house. I have read A LOT of posts on the net about this CCI issue and if it could be done then I'd have gotten a cablecard tuner already.  I won't get one until someone comes up with a hack to get around the CCI flag.  So if it can be done then it's news to me.

[Spectrum]

Correct a recording made from a tivo cannot be transferred to another tivo device or computer and played back because it would be being played back on a secondary device.  AFAIK there is no way to play back a recording made by tivo[0] from an external device, but if there was, that would be a "legal" playback because the drm encoding scheme was implemented by tivo[0].  Transferring it to tivo[1] and playing it back would not be a "legal" move and tivo[1] doesn't have tivo[0]'s encryption/decryption keys to unwrap the DRM so the "legality" is moot.

 

There is no way to enforce the playback location of the file in an open system.  Theoretically I could make a recording on WMC of a show that has the CCI flag marked as "copy once" then copy it from my PC to my unRAID box and back 100 times.  The Windows machine has no way to tell that the file has been "copied" because the copy is bit-perfect.  Timestamps aren't necessarily updated, and even if they are, they can be faked with the touch utility.  What matters is the decryption key used by the software, which is unique to each installation.  Now if I take that same recording and make a bit-perfect copy to my desktop, I still won't be able to play it back because my desktop won't have the decryption key required.

 

A tuner  that doesn't obey the CCI flag is the holy grail of HTPC's and no US based company will be able to bring one to market because of the DMCA, not to mention the civil lawsuits that would be filed by the content owners.  The only hope would be breaking the encryption scheme used, and so far that doesn't look promising.

 

The real problem for "legal" users that are using WMC and a cc tuner is what happens when their system gets hosed and they have to reload their operating system.  I don't think there is a way to backup the enc/dec keypair, and if that is indeed true, reloading the OS would make any recording that was marked as copy once unwatchable.  I haven't looked into that very deeply, I don't use WMC and have no desire to, but that would be deal breaker for me because I get waaaay behind in my tv sometimes!

[BRiT]

That may be the case so long as it doesn't record the original full path and filename inside the file. I've seen schemes where you couldn't even rename the file or move the file to a different drive. I do not know if that's the case here. Just saying it's a possibility of what they could prevent.

 

[dgaschk]

It appears that WMC may have an advantage over Tivo in regard to use of extenders, i.e., copy once and play in any room.

Is this a limitation of Tivo?

Can WMC play a copy-once file that has be copied to Unraid directly from Unraid? Or does it have to be copied back first?

[Spectrum]

My comments are all theory, interpretation of the cable labs docs, and hearing from other uses so take it all with a grain of salt.  And given the way Cable Labs specs have worked in the past, just because it works today doesn't mean it will work tomorrow.

 

My understanding of the Tivo limitation is because it is being played back on a different device, it is outside the copy once scope.  The Playready licensing scheme allows for a "playback domain" (which is not to be confused with a domain in the traditional networking sense) and that is why xb360s are allowed to act as extenders.  Quite a bit of the playready spec is available if your willing to read up on it.  As of right now it is the only licensing model available for HTPCs using cablecards because only MS has spent the hefty cable labs fees to get it licensed.  I'm not sure what Tivo is using.  They may have gotten their own devices certified by CL, but they really aren't HTPCs; they are more embedded devices.

[wsume99]

I guess the bottom line is (at least how I see it) that anyone considering buying a cablecard tuner should really do their homework otherwise they risk being severly disappointed with their $300-$400 purchase.

 

Again, all of my research and reading on this topic indicates that when using a cablecard tuner with WMC that the user is only permitted to record  'copy once' content to the HDD that physically resides in the WMC box.  In fact this is true for all content - WMC will not permit you to copy to a external device.  I believe that the CCI flag will prevent you from moving that file to a server after it has been recorded.  Until someone can confirm that they have successfully moved the file after its original recording then I will refrain from purchasing a cablecard tuner.  In fact, even if I could move the file I don't like the fact that I can only play it from the original WMC box or an approved extender (Xbox).  So I'm forced to use MS products which is not an attractive option either - especially if you already own a bunch of non-MS extenders.

[jimwhite]

Feel free to NOT buy a cable-card tuner 

 

[lionelhutz]

I think people are confusing the copy flag and the act of physically copying the file.  Copy once means the machine that made the copy is the only one that can play back the copy. The file will appear and can be treated just like any other WMC recorded file except that other playback devices can not play it.

 

And yes, a WMC extender (the Xbox 360 more or less) can also play back the copy.

 

Peter