Disks running hot regularly


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Hello there,

 

I get warnings about my hdds going hot (regularly over 50° I think I saw 57°C  a few times, even 59°C).

I have added fans to each mounting point (so I'm now running 4 (2 front intake, one bottom intake 1 back out) - they're on *low setting* (Case has a manual fan control, but I really can't sleep with all fans on 12V, and I could not find out which voltage low means, but probably 5V) 

These are the parts (missing 2 fans, I think arctic f12/f14, or preinstalled):
https://geizhals.de/?cat=WL-2202699
I can see a 5,25 fan control as a possibility, but before I try more for hardware, I wanna see whether I can reduce the source of the heat.

 

I'm mostly wondering why the disks run hot, when I'm not actually using the machine.
What is keeping the disks from spinning down?
I'd like to look into that and find out.
- Mover is set to every 2 hrs (my 120GB cache was running full fast, but now I added a 1TB SSD, I can probably go higher) - but since I have no downloads or stuff active, that shouldnt result in a lot of movement? (scheduler plugin btw.)

- BackUp jobs are running manually mostly... (My desktop was a few days ago and my laptops shouldnt have backupped off the grid...)

- No Downloads / Conversions / ... running....


Netdata is showing me when the disks are in use. There is a lot of activity between 2-3  (not exactly sure what that is), and some activity from ~6:30-9  and 14-15:30, 16-17:15 and 19-21 (that last could be me looking into things)

image.thumb.png.6dc2c6a536241e8938e4e57e7dc32ffe.png

 

Disk by application is resulting in "others" on read with physical IO
Write also has some "media" but still more "others" with pyhsical IO
image.thumb.png.05493615283de3fa41ce4a2f8d4d2f9f.png

 

I'm guessing others is mostly docker containers ? How can I check which one of them is causing writes?
Can I check better which share? is keeping which disk active?

Where else should I look ?

Edited by wambo
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Just now, wambo said:

Thank you. I felt they wouldnt be of much help since I'm not looking for an error, but for "activity"... but then again, I'm just another Jon Snow 

nas-mhmx-diagnostics-20220518-2149.zip 87.78 kB · 0 downloads

The diagnostics can help us see both what activity is happening, and also how you have things configured that might cause activity.   They are not just about errors :) 

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8 minutes ago, wambo said:

I have added fans to each mounting point (so I'm now running 4 (2 front intake, one bottom intake 1 back out)

Make sure that all the air that moves through the case MUST flow over the drives. That means possibly taping over some case holes, building cardboard or plastic ducting, whatever it takes to keep air from passing through the case without flowing past the drives in some way.  It's entirely possible that adding the extra fans did more harm than good, if they are just blowing air through the main open space in the case.

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10 minutes ago, JonathanM said:

Make sure that all the air that moves through the case MUST flow over the drives. That means possibly taping over some case holes, building cardboard or plastic ducting, whatever it takes to keep air from passing through the case without flowing past the drives in some way.  It's entirely possible that adding the extra fans did more harm than good, if they are just blowing air through the main open space in the case.

That is a good thought, one fan is sitting exactly in front of the (stack of ) drives, but one if also quite on top of it, I could try to redirect that one more.
I added a bottom fan to provide air to the other components
18.jpg
(not my picture/machine, but it showcases the problem). Lower bay is completely filled with 3,5" drives, upper bay with SSDs 2,5" is quite empty.... So I'd try to shroud the upper front fan to the bottom as well... it would cause turbulence though I guess, its quite steep. 

I also thought about moving disks up to the 5,25" bays with some kind of adapter...

But before I open it up again, I wanna see whether they're unusually active XD

Edited by wambo
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Consumer grade cases almost never provide adequate cooling in their typical layout for more than one or two drives, because nobody except us storage nuts runs a bunch of drives, normally the biggest cooling load is the graphics card and CPU.

 

Perhaps try disconnecting the case fans and blocking off all the openings except for the single fan in front of the drives and the power supply exhaust, and see how the temperatures act. You can use packing tape as a quick block, just lay strips of tape across all gaps except for the ones directly at the fans.

 

One exit at the PSU, one intake directly on the drives. If the power supply is at the bottom of the case as pictured, possibly open the exhaust fan at the top rear as well. Don't allow any intake air except the single opening that feeds the drives. Close the case and monitor the temperatures.

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You can also try having all of the fans in the back of the case actually blowing/sucking the air out of the case.   Make sure that there are air intakes on the front of the case.  From your picture it looks like there are two fans in the front of the case.  Those should blow air over the drives.  The crosswise mounting of the disk drives may mean that these fans may not be providing moving air directly to the drives. (depends on the construction of the mounts.)  

 

You might also want to consider using a 4-in-3 or 5-in-3 adapter for those three 5-1/4" drive bays.  (Make sure that with the present configuration that those bays are not providing a short circuit path for most of the front-to-back air flow!)

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On 5/19/2022 at 12:43 AM, Frank1940 said:

You can also try having all of the fans in the back of the case actually blowing/sucking the air out of the case.   Make sure that there are air intakes on the front of the case.  From your picture it looks like there are two fans in the front of the case.  Those should blow air over the drives.  The crosswise mounting of the disk drives may mean that these fans may not be providing moving air directly to the drives. (depends on the construction of the mounts.)  

 

You might also want to consider using a 4-in-3 or 5-in-3 adapter for those three 5-1/4" drive bays.  (Make sure that with the present configuration that those bays are not providing a short circuit path for most of the front-to-back air flow!)


The picture above is just a similar setup. But I can assure that the all fans are directed front to back.  I did not find time to open the case (its in a bit of  a hard to access place XD but it can get enough air). 

I switched the fan control to full power tonight and started a backup job (which crashed after some 4hrs...) but I got 0 warnings today...
So another option might be add some active fan control. 

I'll try redirecting fans a bit during the weekend.

But after that right now what I'd prefer is 5,25" drive bay converter, or fan control... 

Edit:
I was wondering which voltage the low setting on the case's fan control puts onto the fans (In theory it could be 3.3, 5, 7, 8.7 - leaving out 12V because that is probably the max and 1.7V cause its probably not enough to get all fans spinning). 
So maybe it would already be enough if I find a way to actually get all fans onto the 7-8.7 V range?
Would need additional cables but I feel it could be the "cleanest" option still...

Sth like this could do the trick... https://www.ebay.de/itm/171764551926
Or this with some extensions needed... https://www.ebay.de/itm/403571993139
I'm willing to spend a bit more money than this if someone has like a brand model working :D

Edited by wambo
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50 minutes ago, wambo said:

I did not find time to open the case (its in a bit of  a hard to access place XD but it can get enough air). 

When was the last time you cleaned that case?   I know it is a dirty job but that alone will  often solve hot case temperatures! 

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On 5/18/2022 at 3:46 PM, wambo said:

These are the parts (missing 2 fans, I think arctic f12/f14, or preinstalled):

Looked at the case in this picture.  I would be tempted to remove that big blank front panel.  Also block those two 5-1/4" unused slots.  (If appearance is an issue, use black electrical tape.)   Remember all air should come in at the front of the case in front of the disk drives.  All air flow (fans) behind the disks drives should be an exhaust.  The PS may be a problem but generally if everything else is setup properly, the disk drives will stay cool. 

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On 5/20/2022 at 12:47 AM, Frank1940 said:

When was the last time you cleaned that case?   I know it is a dirty job but that alone will  often solve hot case temperatures! 

Just a few  (2 or 3) weeks ago (when I added an SSD). It has dust filters on front and bottom, which I clean regularly - So I'm quite certain this is not the issue.
 

 

On 5/20/2022 at 1:10 AM, Frank1940 said:

Looked at the case in this picture.  I would be tempted to remove that big blank front panel.  Also block those two 5-1/4" unused slots.  (If appearance is an issue, use black electrical tape.)   Remember all air should come in at the front of the case in front of the disk drives.  All air flow (fans) behind the disks drives should be an exhaust.  The PS may be a problem but generally if everything else is setup properly, the disk drives will stay cool. 

Sadly the front panel is not really removable (front panel connectors are wired up, as is the fan control at the bottom)... not even the door is built to be removed

I have (an unused) DVD Drive in one of the 5-1/4" and the other one is still "blocked" by the piece of metal that can be "broken out". 

I guess I can flip the bottom fan, but I think I'm gonna try to somehow have the back fans a bit lower (low setting of case control) and the front fans at around 7V (or as high as I get them from BIOS/ hardware controller, without them sounding too loud.)

I'll have ot look into the BIOS, but maybe I can connect the front ones to the MB headers and set them to like 80%
Or I'll go with some additional hardware like this:
Sth like this could do the trick... https://www.ebay.de/itm/171764551926
Or this with some extensions needed... https://www.ebay.de/itm/403571993139
I'm willing to spend a bit more money than this if someone has like a brand model working 

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15 minutes ago, trurl said:

Your appdata and system shares have files on disk2.

I think I noticed that, I dont know how I can change that though.
Those shares are set to "prefer" one of the caches, and the mover shouldve run a few times already. 
Should I disable all Docker/VMs and run the mover again maybe?

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6 minutes ago, wambo said:

I think I noticed that, I dont know how I can change that though.
Those shares are set to "prefer" one of the caches, and the mover shouldve run a few times already. 
Should I disable all Docker/VMs and run the mover again maybe?

Yes, Open files can't be moved...

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Well that didn't particularly work. Disabled Docker and VM in the settings,  the mover moved through, but I still have appdata on disk2  (and appstorage on disk3 but I think that is set to yes not prefer)

I'll run the mover without the sheduler plugin filters now, to see whether that was the issue...
My syslog just disappeared and now I only have entries of the past 4 minutes... I'm majorly confused... only thing I did was update docker /plugins, disable docker / vm and then run the mover o_O

Edited by wambo
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26 minutes ago, wambo said:

Well that didn't particularly work. Disabled Docker and VM in the settings,  the mover moved through, but I still have appdata on disk2  (and appstorage on disk3 but I think that is set to yes not prefer)

Go to  Settings  >>>   Scheduler   >>>  Mover settings   and enable 'Mover Logging:'.   Run Mover again and then get the Diagnostics to upload.

 

Be sure to disable again after capturing the diagnostics as Mover Logging will really spam the syslog if there are no problems!

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So I was away for the weekend but heey, today is a holyday.
I made some pictures, top is as it was until now. Bottom Front and Back are the bequiet fans, the bottom and front top are the cooltek original ones.
The other 2 pictures after modification:

- turned the bottom fan to become an outlet  (this was a fail, it was an outlet before already XD)
- put some paper/tape below the lowest HDD, so air flows through the gaps

- put some paper/tape on the left side, so air doesnt flow past the side

-  I couldnt really find a way to seal off on the right side, since there's all the cables

- I put a tape paper in front of the top of the top fan, to redirect air towards bottom

 

Also I changed some things about the connection:

The MB has 3 sys fan headers, 1x 3PIN 2x4PIN, but I only have 3 PIN fans, didn't check BIOS setting yet, I hope it can handle 3 PIN fans...
- connected the front bottom (bequiet) to the 3PIN header - gonna try to give it a constant fan curve as high as I can bear the noise

- connected the back and bottom fans to the 4PIN headers - back fan also constant high fan curve, and gonna use the bottom one to test around how it affects
- the bequiet fans came with a IDE -> 5/7/12V header, so I put the front top fan on 7V for now

But generally: shrouding the front fans is kidn of hard because of the small gap to the 1,25"(?) disks, and that cage doesnt have holes on the bottom

 

**Edit:**
Okay, the 3PIN header cannot be controlled, its just full speed (which is fine for the bequiet I suppose.
and the 4PIN ones... I'm not sure about, they give a rpm reading, and I can control them with the settings, but the "manual" control is a based on pwm/degree system temperature, which obviously doesnt do anything about my disks. So I can go witht he silent, fullspeed, or normal preset.

I will run the bequiet fans (top bottom and back) on fullspeed with the sys3 header (and hope thy're quiet enough), and run the other 2 on the 4PIN (adjustable) fan headers.

One issue though: the bottom fan doesnt like being upside down 😕 it sounds like its slightly scraping on something, but its not a cable on top or the case on the bottom, so I think it is where the fan (the propellor/rotor) is hanging from the static part...
I think I might just have it stand in front of the disks and secure it with cable ties


 

Spoiler

Pictures


IMG_20220526_143515.thumb.jpg.379c04f66b83b8f15b32a7c5d90babd9.jpgIMG_20220526_151401.thumb.jpg.2913c713952ba3a0c746d5e82779d8ed.jpgIMG_20220526_151940.thumb.jpg.da8e0856b6063bbc762e4a83388e8ea7.jpg

 

Edited by wambo
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12 minutes ago, Frank1940 said:

Is that bottom fan blowing in?  It certainly looks that way!  Try having blow out.  You want all air entering the case to come across the disks first!
 

God damnit. Yeah I had it blow out before I flipped it  (even the dust filter told me so XD)

But I like my solution now even better (and its the correct way now :D)


IMG_20220526_163450.thumb.jpg.42a621e78f472ce261c8312d2ce0cff2.jpg

Not proud of the cable management btw. gonna try to bundle up the sata cables a bit, but there aren't too many things between the disks and the outlet

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7 minutes ago, wambo said:

Not proud of the cable management btw. gonna try to bundle up the sata cables a bit, but there aren't too many things between the disks and the outlet

That's actually how cable management SHOULD look.  Bundled cables induce EMI interference.  Cabling should be basically sitting random, so that the EMI is random.

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53 minutes ago, Squid said:

That's actually how cable management SHOULD look.  Bundled cables induce EMI interference.  Cabling should be basically sitting random, so that the EMI is random.

Haha. I need to remember that :D

Anyways, I did a quick sound test (closed the case) and found that the rear fan was still a bit too loud, so I switched it to "normal", the MB says ~700 rpm (fullspeed was 1500rpm iirc). 
Still have the option to make the rear one 7v manually, as well as increasing the one pulling through the disks (if 12V can do more than the MB 4PIN on fullspeed).

 

But for now I'll put it back into its corner, and find out how the noise feels over time and how the disk temps behave.

 

(edit: nah, not particularly happy about the noise)

Edited by wambo
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1 hour ago, wambo said:

But I like my solution now even better (and its the correct way now :D)

All those openings not sealed are allowing air to go where it's not needed. Tape over all the random holes in the bottom, back, slot covers, etc, then put the side back on and see how it goes.

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Fan noise is not uncommon in servers.   There are fans which are quieter.  But be careful and do some research.  'Moving' air makes noise in itself.  (Just stand outside when a breeze is blowing.)  Carefully notice the relationship between these three factors:  (1) CFM, (2) Head-- often measured in 'mm of water' and (3) Noise.  You will quickly find that you don't get something for nothing!

 

Here is a one fan that I have used when I needed a lower noise level.  This company has several lines of fans designed to emphasis one of the three factors in the trade-off situation.

 

    https://noctua.at/en/products/fan

 

This is not the only company to make quiet fans so have a look around before buying...

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