Boot off of NVME instead of USB

[Enver]

The ability to boot the Unraid Operating System off of PCIE / NVME or SATA / SSD drive instead of a USB key.

 

As the title and short description suggests; I would very much like Lime Technologies to incorporate this as feature in an upcoming beta release.

 

This post is a bit of a rant / whinge as an unhappy Unraid customer. RANT ON:

 

The why:

• Because of the poor experience I have had over the last couple of years with the reliability, durability and frustrating user experience when a USB key has failed as a bootable device for Unraid.
• Because a USB key no matter what the brand or the warranty period is not an enterprise class solution for a bootable partition.
• Because in my experience whether you pay $5 or $50 for a USB key to replace the last one, the 5 year warranty period amounts to nothing when it costs you time, money and your server is down.
• The manufacturer of the USB key won't cover you for lost productivity and ultimately it will cost you more time and money to follow them up on their warranty.
• Most retailers and manufactures rely on consumers considering the USB key to be disposable and not pursue the arduous warranty / RMA process.
• Whilst I have the outmost respect for the Lime Technology support staff; my user experience has been less than optimal. To be told that the SLA for a failed USB key replacement within the arbitrary 12 month failure window is 3 days implies that you will need to wait up to 3 days before your server can be up and running again is unacceptable. <- I actually own two Unraid Pro Key licenses; only one of them is used; this was the only way could get my server up and running again in an acceptable amount of time.
•  What is the point of backing up the key if you can't restore it to a new drive to use without having to contact support or request a new key? 
• The 12 month arbitrary self-service replacement window - In a perfect world, we would buy the USB key with the 5 year warranty. The USB key would operate reliably for its 5 year warranty period and when it fails the Unraid user would utilise the self-service online replacement service. <- I have had no less than 4 USB keys fail; all with 5 year warranties (reputable brands, Sandisk, Lexar etc) in the time that Lime Technology has had the My Servers Plugin published to its consumers. All of them have failed requiring manual intervention by Lime Technology Support, I am currently waiting on another replacement. The second failure within two weeks.
• Its just not green or environmentally friendly. USB keys fail and when they do they aren't usually repurposed because of lack of trust or integrity in the failed storage device. They usually end up as e-waste and the plastics and materials are harder to recycle so normally end in land fill.

 

The rationale:

• Its 2022 /2023, I find it incredulous we are still relying on this antiquated storage interface. USB keys are for the temporary storage of photos and documents! If you read any of the SanDisk or Lexar use cases; using a USB key as your primary boot partition isn't one of them!
• We spend so much time, money and effort building our version of the ideal Unraid server. Thousands of dollars are spent on repurposed enterprise server hardware, new enterprise class drives and then we leave uptime, reliability and durability of the entire server to a single device which is based on a memory storage interface standard that is slow, unreliable and was never meant for high durability (read / writes).
• Review the number of Unraid consumers who have posted a forum message where the root cause has been the USB storage media has failed. <- We have all been there numerous times. <- How many times has Lime Technology told you to plug your USB key into a USB 2.0 interface? I challenge you to find a modern server / workstation class motherboard that has a USB 2.0 port? I own an Asus WRX80E Sage WiFi motherboard.
• We have a high level of trust in modern NVME / SSD drives; we place some of our most important data on these devices; surely the Operating System for Unraid which includes configuration, passwords, encryption keys and certificates deserves the same level of durability!?
• NVME / SSD can be run in RAID 1 enough said.
• Most BIOS's support booting off NVME / SSD natively either in legacy or UEFI mode.
• NVME / SSD's support native hardware encryption that are TPM / BIOS aware. 
• The current USB Creator tool can be hit and miss; some USB keys it recognises and allows you to format and create a bootable partition. Other keys simply cannot be seen by the USB Creator tool....despite the OS seeing the key....there doesn't appear to be any rationale as to why this may the case; another source of frustration and poor user experience.
• It should be a fairly straight forward process to repurpose / redeploy the USB Creator Tool onto a USB key....plug this key into your server and have the USB Creator Tools partition / image your internal NVME / SSD drive.
• NVME / SSD's don't suffer from the same FAT32 limitations; therefore partition limit sizing would not be a constraint. <- How many times have you had to reboot your server prematurely because the USB partition has filled up with logs whilst you attempt to diagnose the issue? How many times have you had Unraid tell you your logs are filling up......there is nothing actually wrong with your system....its just been running for a very long time?

 

To summarise; @limetech PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE introduce the ability to boot off an enterprise class, internal storage medium such as PCIE/NVME or SATA/SSD drives. Hell even a consumer class NVME is more durable than USB key. I can't recall the last time an NVME drive failed because of lack of durability. In my opinion Lime Technology needs to update their support for bootable media; the last email I got from Lime Technologies support suggested I buy a Kingston DTSE9H USB key.....this key has not been manufactured by Kinston for years! 

 

NOT HAPPY!

 

:RANT OFF

Edited December 30, 2022 by Enver

[primeval_god]

As a very happy unRAID user (not affiliated with the company in any way) who also enjoys a good rant now and again please allow me a bit of a rebuttal.

• unRAID is a home NAS operating system. It is a consumer oriented product not an enterprise solution. Please stop expecting enterprise features from consumer products.
• Zero downtime and 24/7 support are enterprise features that one should expect to pay large amounts of money for on an ongoing basis. Limetech is a very small company with a somewhat niche product, the amount of support and ongoing improvements they provide for your onetime license fee is frankly astounding.
• If you have logs being written to your flash drive you are doing something wrong. The flashdrive is meant to be a fairly static storage area for the os image and a few small configuration files. unRAID runs from RAM and writes to the flash drive on a properly configured system should be few and far between. The use of fat32 should not be an issue because the entire os should stay small enough to run completely out of RAM.
• unRAID is not the only NAS device out there that boots from a flash drive. Terramaster for one i believe has their home NAS appliances booting from an internal usb flash drive. And just to reiterate my opinion on this one, unRAID  is in fact a home NAS appliance not a generic linux os or an enterprise solution.
• My sub $20 flash drive has been going strong for 5+ years. I know that finding good flash drives is harder these days but many people still are.
• One thing i would like to see is either a community or limetech led effort to identify a good brand / source of flash drives and then a community buy or better yet limetech (or someone) buying in bulk and reselling said drives to the community (if the price is right no warranty necessary).

The above said, i am sorry to hear or your troubles and you really should look into stopping whatever is logging to your flash drive. I would bet it is a big source of your troubles. I do apologize for the counter rant as we generally try to cultivate a supportive rather than standoffish community. Your opinions and feedback are welcome even if some of us disagree.

 

[Hexenhammer]

5 hours ago, primeval_god said:

As a very happy unRAID user (not affiliated with the company in any way) who also enjoys a good rant now and again please allow me a bit of a rebuttal.

• unRAID is a home NAS operating system. It is a consumer oriented product not an enterprise solution. Please stop expecting enterprise features from consumer products.
• Zero downtime and 24/7 support are enterprise features that one should expect to pay large amounts of money for on an ongoing basis. Limetech is a very small company with a somewhat niche product, the amount of support and ongoing improvements they provide for your onetime license fee is frankly astounding.
• If you have logs being written to your flash drive you are doing something wrong. The flashdrive is meant to be a fairly static storage area for the os image and a few small configuration files. unRAID runs from RAM and writes to the flash drive on a properly configured system should be few and far between. The use of fat32 should not be an issue because the entire os should stay small enough to run completely out of RAM.
• unRAID is not the only NAS device out there that boots from a flash drive. Terramaster for one i believe has their home NAS appliances booting from an internal usb flash drive. And just to reiterate my opinion on this one, unRAID  is in fact a home NAS appliance not a generic linux os or an enterprise solution.
• My sub $20 flash drive has been going strong for 5+ years. I know that finding good flash drives is harder these days but many people still are.
• One thing i would like to see is either a community or limetech led effort to identify a good brand / source of flash drives and then a community buy or better yet limetech (or someone) buying in bulk and reselling said drives to the community (if the price is right no warranty necessary).

The above said, i am sorry to hear or your troubles and you really should look into stopping whatever is logging to your flash drive. I would bet it is a big source of your troubles. I do apologize for the counter rant as we generally try to cultivate a supportive rather than standoffish community. Your opinions and feedback are welcome even if some of us disagree.

 

 

You need to state actual Reasons, why having a new feature is BAD idea, how it will Affect your user experience in a |Negative way.

Otherwise you just ranted that because you have a 5$ flash that works, no one should be able to install unraid to NVMe, which is BTW a basic option for every OS.

The only reason unRaid goes on flash is due to security, but NVMe also have serial numbers, they can easily lock the program license to NVMe/SATA SSD/HDD serial number.

 

I agree with the OP, using flash drives is outdated, cumbersome and idiotic, i rather install unraid to SSD and have the system folders part of the install like on windows, located in default location on the same drive, this way youll have SSD with unraid and all your docks, plugins and everything else on one drive

 

I see no logical reasons to be against such feature, there is nothing no one can say that will make this into negative experience for otehr people

 

 

[CriticalEgg]

I have to say, as a new user of Unraid I am having a difficult time getting USB keys working consistently. I bought 4 64gb Samsung fit USB keys and of the 4 I can only get one to work.  I have 5 older Sandisk 8 or 16gb USB keys that I used to boot freeness or esxi and I can not get any of those to work with Unraid.  I can understand the old keys but 3 brand new Samsung fit keys not working? Thats pretty bad...  Is there a log file for the Unraid USB key creator that I can look at? I have tried creating USB keys on my Mac and on my windows workstations.  I have zeroed out the USB keys using dd on my linux server... I too would love to have an NVME or SATA/Sata DOM option for Unraid. Just so darn inconsistent.

[Hexenhammer]

9 hours ago, CriticalEgg said:

I have to say, as a new user of Unraid I am having a difficult time getting USB keys working consistently. I bought 4 64gb Samsung fit USB keys and of the 4 I can only get one to work.  I have 5 older Sandisk 8 or 16gb USB keys that I used to boot freeness or esxi and I can not get any of those to work with Unraid.  I can understand the old keys but 3 brand new Samsung fit keys not working? Thats pretty bad...  Is there a log file for the Unraid USB key creator that I can look at? I have tried creating USB keys on my Mac and on my windows workstations.  I have zeroed out the USB keys using dd on my linux server... I too would love to have an NVME or SATA/Sata DOM option for Unraid. Just so darn inconsistent.

 

Dont buy 64Gigs, never go above 32

Im using samsung Bar Plus 32gb, so far it works, but i rather just install to SSD and not even think about USB crap

 

BTW unRaid says im just 480mb full, so in reality go with 2Gb-4gb USB if you have an old one, the only thing it installs to USB is plugins and i have like 30, all the important ones and the flash is just 480mb, so 32gb and even 16gb is wasteful, honestly i went with 32gb assuming it will be fast and will have longer life due to larger nand allowing more writes, but unRaid doesnt write anything to USB, like very minimal, plugins and settings and thats it

 

 

 

 

https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-BAR-Plus-32GB-Champagne/dp/B07BPHML28

[i-chat]

On 12/30/2022 at 10:45 PM, Hexenhammer said:

 

You need to state actual Reasons, why having a new feature is BAD idea, how it will Affect your user experience in a |Negative way.

this is the world up-side-down, how do you even think that, anyone should do what YOU want unless they can prove you wrong?  wouldn't it be more logical if you had to prove to other people why you are right? 

 

On 12/30/2022 at 10:45 PM, Hexenhammer said:

Otherwise you just ranted that because you have a 5$ flash that works, no one should be able to install unraid to NVMe, which is BTW a basic option for every OS.

The only reason unRaid goes on flash is due to security, but NVMe also have serial numbers, they can easily lock the program license to NVMe/SATA SSD/HDD serial number.

honnestly this is just a sad way of trying to make people feel sorry for you,  its just guilttripping really...   allso i highly doubt that  serial numbers can be securely idenified using linux cli tools...    at least a tool like   LSHW doesnt seem to catch every SN on every HDD or SSD. 

 

 

On 12/30/2022 at 10:45 PM, Hexenhammer said:

 

I agree with the OP, using flash drives is outdated, cumbersome and idiotic, i rather install unraid to SSD and have the system folders part of the install like on windows, located in default location on the same drive, this way youll have SSD with unraid and all your docks, plugins and everything else on one drive

let me remind you that FREENAS world leading opensource NAS & SAN distribution  only 2nd to openfiler,  only recently (with version 12), changed policy about booting from USB-drives (mostly raid 0 of of 2 thumbdrives), 
So regaring to your 'idiotic'   you really presume too much if you think that words like that could argue your point in your benifit.  

 

 

On 12/30/2022 at 10:45 PM, Hexenhammer said:

 

I see no logical reasons to be against such feature, there is nothing no one can say that will make this into negative experience for otehr people

there you go,  so let me explain,   USB-drives  by their protocol have a unique idenitfier that  unraid uses as a way to protect its revenue for unauthories copies.   it is true that some  (mostly OEM like hp, lenovo, dell), manufacturers have a similar feature in their bioses that limetech could incorporate but thats only a verry small subset of hardware used by  US users.  

So to make happen what you want, the would not only have to  make rigurous changes to that base-installment system,  (which admitedly can be done with medium effort),  they would also have to re-invent a licensing system based of of some other unique identifier ...   this might not be as easy as you think.  
 

Now this obviously COULD be done,  surly,  however  what would be the gain. 
booting from sata to ram-disk is (if at all) only a verry tiny margin faster than from usb to ramdisk.  
and doesn't actually add much stability either,  (you still would not be projected from bad writes due to disk-failure. 

and if you want to protect against it you would have to add some form of disk-mirroring (raid)  kindly defeating the whole UNraid principle. 

 

arguably,  its possible to boot of of NVME and not use ramdisk at all,   making the whole system boot slightly faster and removing some of the complications that come with ramdisks...  but this add a bog you your NVME disks,  and might negativly impact system stability (or responsiveness when for exampe  you are demaing high performance from youre write-cache ... 

also your reference to windows is wrong,  

i have been a member of the professional windows comunity for a couple of decenia now, and one of the most debated topic (complaints) agains windows it the fact that by default   %alluser profiles%  is stored in  C:/users    and not for example   on  h(ome):/uses (not even on windows server versions) and the only ever reponse was 'yes but legacy suport would break. 

 

 

all in all  the cost of implementing this  in my (profesional) opinion doesn't even come close to covering the win. 

 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by i-chat

[Tjlejeune]

I've been running unRAID for at least 6 years. In that time I've had 2 different builds, but I've used the same USB key for both. I was skeptical about it at first but now I think the OS being held on a USB is one unRAIDs best features. Frees up a SATA/ nvme port for more storage plus makes it easier to move to new hardware.  

[WenzelComputing]

On 12/30/2022 at 3:45 PM, Hexenhammer said:

 

You need to state actual Reasons, why having a new feature is BAD idea, how it will Affect your user experience in a |Negative way.

Otherwise you just ranted that because you have a 5$ flash that works, no one should be able to install unraid to NVMe, which is BTW a basic option for every OS.

The only reason unRaid goes on flash is due to security, but NVMe also have serial numbers, they can easily lock the program license to NVMe/SATA SSD/HDD serial number.

 

I agree with the OP, using flash drives is outdated, cumbersome and idiotic, i rather install unraid to SSD and have the system folders part of the install like on windows, located in default location on the same drive, this way youll have SSD with unraid and all your docks, plugins and everything else on one drive

 

I see no logical reasons to be against such feature, there is nothing no one can say that will make this into negative experience for otehr people

 

 

 

1 answer: Development time can be much better spent elsewhere.

 

I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea to be fair. I just think that the time developing it could go to things like ZFS. And if something like ZFS were delayed due to people wanting to install it on an ssd...then id be rather annoyed.

 

As other people noted this is NOT an enterprise software.

 

You want something more enterprise? Go to Truenas. Buy a support contract.