unRAID fork(), concepts, ideas and discussion, Running unRAID on another distro.


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LOL, I paid for a package that goes on a USB and operates as a file server. I didn't pay for a full distribution. I didn't pay for packages. I didn't pay for a kernel with all the drivers, features and functions included.

 

The file system is not read only. You can write to it just fine. It's just not persistant during a power-cycle.

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LOL, I paid for a package that goes on a USB and operates as a file server. I didn't pay for a full distribution. I didn't pay for packages. I didn't pay for a kernel with all the drivers, features and functions included.

 

The file system is not read only. You can write to it just fine. It's just not persistant during a power-cycle.

 

So basically you're just against evolution?  Just because that's what unRAID was at the time you purchased it, that's what it should always remain?

 

The classic version of unRAID will still exist, you can continue using that.

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aside from whether you think its "a dick move" i think a few people on here misunderstand GPL open source + reverse engineering:

unRAID "AntiChrist Edition" is 100% of the md Linux Module and emhttp (If Tom ever decides he will permit it which I am assuming is he won't) or an opensource alternative. I didn't have reverse engineer anything.

 

aah, i figured the "opensource alternative" side of things would require some reverse engineering, was just trying to dissuade the people saying the world "stealing" (copyright infringement isnt technically stealing anyways but thats another huge dark hole of arguments)

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LOL, I paid for a package that goes on a USB and operates as a file server. I didn't pay for a full distribution. I didn't pay for packages. I didn't pay for a kernel with all the drivers, features and functions included.

 

Then continue to use regular unRAID.

 

For many us, WE want to decide what we can / cannot do with our Hardware / Software. Hence "unRAID AntiChrist Edition".

 

The file system is not read only. You can write to it just fine. It's just not persistant during a power-cycle.

 

Technically you are correct.

 

I bet 98% of the people here have no idea how to install software into the bzroot so to them it is "read only".

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grumpbutfun

 

Lets say that UNraid is migrated over to a CentOS distro as the default Linux distro. From there, is it possible to use the "cache" drive as a /data drive for storage of all the programs and package dependencies and such(Similar to another embedded Linux distro such as Android)?

 

I do agree with how neutered the kernel is and such, its too much of a hassle to remove features then have users add it back in.

 

The host OS (CentOS, OpenSUSE, etc) with unRAID baked in would be installed to a disk drive (HDD, SSD).  All of the programs/dependencies you load would be stored on that host OS drive.  The only point in having a cache drive at that stage would be to speed up writes by writing to the cache drive and later moving to the protected array (the original purpose of a cache drive).  There would no longer be the need to use a cache drive as an apps drive as these apps would now live on the host OS and use the host OS drive for storage.

 

Most people would wind up repurposing their existing cache drive as the host OS drive.

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I had always hoped for an unRAID RPM install package.

 

One that had it's own baked in md driver kernel and any support programs or dependency to the support programs.

 

This way each piece could be updated on it's own.

 

kernel rpm.

managing mdadm rpm

shfs rpm

emhttp rpm

webmin module rpm

 

etc, etc.

 

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grumpbutfun

 

Lets say that UNraid is migrated over to a CentOS distro as the default Linux distro. From there, is it possible to use the "cache" drive as a /data drive for storage of all the programs and package dependencies and such(Similar to another embedded Linux distro such as Android)?

 

I do agree with how neutered the kernel is and such, its too much of a hassle to remove features then have users add it back in.

 

The host OS (CentOS, OpenSUSE, etc) with unRAID baked in would be installed to a disk drive (HDD, SSD).  All of the programs/dependencies you load would be stored on that host OS drive.  The only point in having a cache drive at that stage would be to speed up writes by writing to the cache drive and later moving to the protected array (the original purpose of a cache drive).  There would no longer be the need to use a cache drive as an apps drive as these apps would now live on the host OS and use the host OS drive for storage.

 

Most people would wind up repurposing their existing cache drive as the host OS drive.

 

actually there is a use for cache drive, you would use cache drive as temp hold for all the write intensive processes to prolong the live of the system drive.

I would have a small drive where I would put all the files first to be moved in proper places. and that drive to be different than the one wher my Os is stored.

this way my main drive(s)  would last longer.

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Lets say that UNraid is migrated over to a CentOS distro as the default Linux distro. From there, is it possible to use the "cache" drive as a /data drive for storage of all the programs and package dependencies and such(Similar to another embedded Linux distro such as Android)?

 

You could use your cache driver for your OS / Apps / VMs / Etc. Personally, I like to have things copied to the RAID if I want to keep them.

 

Sure, when I first started out I put all my Apps into VMs but the thrill of that quickly faded. Now my Apps run on my OS along with unRAID. I don't even use VMs for that anymore.

 

If I ran something like a usenet indexer, that would be something I would put in a VM because I would want it to have it's own mysql, OS, drives, etc. but things like Sickbeard, Couchpotato, Subsonic, etc... Not worth the hassle of maintaining a VM, the Linux Distro, copying files from the VM to the Host, etc. Point is, I'm not anal but there is plenty of people who are and find enjoyment in separating everything.

 

My other VMs are XBMC, Windows and Linux Distros I play around with.

 

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I haven't got a clue what an rpm file is lol but can learn :)

 

"apt-get install unraid" sounds allot easier, used that one before :)

 

Getting used to the name  "unRAID AntiChrist Edition" though, liking it allot now.

 

Regarding the cache dive this is where I'll be installing "unRAID AntiChrist Edition", should imagine 250GB being plenty of room.

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I haven't got a clue what an rpm file is lol but can learn :)

 

"apt-get install unraid" sounds allot easier, used that one before :)

 

Getting used to the name  "unRAID AntiChrist Edition" though, liking it allot now.

 

Regarding the cache dive this is where I'll be installing "unRAID AntiChrist Edition", should imagine 250GB being plenty of room.

 

yum install unraid could download RPM's and install them to a CentOS or RH type system.

 

Also allowing each individual piece the ability to be upgraded.

yum upgrade emhttp

etc, etc.

 

Perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself here. I mentioned it because I saw somewhere it was mentioned that ISO files were going to be made.

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I had always hoped for an unRAID RPM install package.

 

One that had it's own baked in md driver kernel and any support programs or dependency to the support programs.

 

This way each piece could be updated on it's own.

 

kernel rpm.

managing mdadm rpm

shfs rpm

emhttp rpm

webmin module rpm

 

etc, etc.

 

We have that set up now.

 

CentOS Core Repo - Speaks for itself.

 

CentOS Core Testing Repo - Assuming CentOS is the Distro of choice... Once CentOS 7.1 or whatever comes out this will be in the testing repo for X amount of time for through testing (End Users if they want can test it out as well) and after X amount of time / testing it moves to the repo above.

 

unRAID Repo - This will have any Kernel Updates, emhttp (or opensource version if Tom doesn't allow it)

 

unRAID Testing Repo -  Same as the Core Testing Repo - Xen 4.4 is in RC now it would be here. XBMC Gotham would be here. Etc.

 

Usual Apps (Can't think of the name) - Where we make your life easy.

 

Usual Apps Testing Repo - Same as Core Testing Repo.

 

Usenet Indexers, Sickbeard, Couchpotato, XBMC, Transmission, MakeMKV, etc.

 

Server Monitoring apps like Monitorix, Nagios, Cacti, Munin, etc.

 

Server Management WebGUIs apps like Webmin, cpanel, zpanel, plesk, etc.

 

KVM / Xen - Apps, GUIs, etc.

 

Pretty much any plugin you see on here today will be in there and many, many more that most of you are unaware of / never had a chance to use. Of course we will encourage and work with the community to add new additional ones and would love to have Package Maintainers that are responsible for X app.

 

For Example if you are a XBMC guru...

 

You and several other people would be responsible for keeping that specific package up to date, testing, be aware of bugs / bug fixes / patches, testing the app in the new releases in the Testing Repo, making sure the new packages install in 7.0 / 7.1 / 8.1 (for example), etc. A lot more fun than writing 2,000+ lines of code for a plugin if you ask me.

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LOL, I paid for a package that goes on a USB and operates as a file server. I didn't pay for a full distribution. I didn't pay for packages. I didn't pay for a kernel with all the drivers, features and functions included.

 

The file system is not read only. You can write to it just fine. It's just not persistant during a power-cycle.

 

So basically you're just against evolution?  Just because that's what unRAID was at the time you purchased it, that's what it should always remain?

 

The classic version of unRAID will still exist, you can continue using that.

 

Did I post that? In the future it will be whatever LimeTech releases. If that future is a more capable distribution then that's what it is. Only LimeTech can decide.

 

There is no need for anyone to post a big rants about what they believe unRAID should be. The LimeTech website is very clear on what it is. "unRAID® is an embedded Network Attached Storage (NAS) server operating system."  There is nothing on the LimeTech site where you buy the software which says you get a full distribution, virtualization cababilities or anything else that this fork would give you. So, why complain about the software you bought not being capable of a whole bunch of things which it never claimed to be when you purchased it.

 

And just because I'm not happy with what I purchased doesn't mean I have the right to create a new version and roll the unRAID elements (emhttp basically) into it without the companies position. It's certainly not ethical to use the company forum for any discusssions about rolling your own storage distribution which doesn't include unRAID (again emhttp basically).

 

There is no evolution being discussed by grumpy. A revolution is being planned. The repeated calls to "respond now and bow to my demands or I'm going to go off and build a competing product" threats should have made that perfectly clear by now.

 

 

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And just because I'm not happy with what I purchased doesn't mean I have the right to create a new version and roll the unRAID elements (emhttp basically) into it without the companies position.

 

I have a 10+ Years of Linux / Linux Development / Open source / GNU Experience that says otherwise. Not to mention a $500 dollar an hour Attorney who specializes in Intellectual Property that says otherwise.

 

Do you see Red Hat Linux suing CentOS? No, they can't and in fact just formalized a partnership.

 

Do you see Debian suing Ubuntu? No, they can't and they play very well together.

 

Do you see XBMC suing Media Portal, Boxee, Plex, openELEC, etc? No, they can't and play very well together.

 

It's certainly not ethical to use the company forum for any discusssions about rolling your own storage distribution which doesn't include unRAID (again emhttp basically).

 

I am going to go out on a very strong limb and bet you a lot of money that Tom isn't to listen to your advice. I also do not believe that he going to tell us to screw off and so we basically give away a superior product for free. I suspect that will prove to be very damaging to his bottom line.

 

There is no evolution being discussed by grumpy. A revolution is being planned. The repeated calls to "respond now and bow to my demands or I'm going to go off and build a competing product" threats should have made that perfectly clear by now.

 

I am more than willing to play ball and make sure he gets 100% of the compensation.

 

Tom has a choice to make... Sure. I don't care if you like it or not... of if he does either.

 

FreeNAS and NAS4Free went through the same crap... They both seem to be doing just FINE.

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But both freenas and nas4free are free to download entities with no pay model.  What you are now posturing is that Tom, who has a paid model has no choice but to allow your open source fork or else you are going to proceed anyways without his blessing and bleed his bottom line by releasing a free version of an enhanced unRAID iso.

 

If I am reading this all wrong then I may truly be the Messiah of Morons.

 

Kryspy

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How about LOCKING this thread and any other discussions about it be deleted.  Let Grumpy do what he wants somewhere else.  If he is that good he should start from scratch and create his own version and not steal what LimeTech had done.  Stealing may be the wrong word but that all I can think of right now.

/*
* md.c : (modified) Multiple Devices driver for Linux
*         Copyright (C) 2006-2011, Tom Mortensen
*
* Greatly revised to support UnRaid in a particular manner.
*
* Derived from:

   md.c : Multiple Devices driver for Linux
          Copyright (C) 1998, 1999, 2000 Ingo Molnar

 

/*
* md_private.h : (modified) Multiple Devices driver for linux
*        Copyright (C) 2006-2010 Tom Mortensen
*
* Derived from:

   md.h : Multiple Devices driver for Linux
          Copyright (C) 1996-98 Ingo Molnar, Gadi Oxman
          Copyright (C) 1994-96 Marc ZYNGIER

 

Okay... Let's all start emailing Ingo and Marc above and convince them that Tom "stole" their GNU open sourced licensed software and to sue Tom even though they will lose.

 

Until that can be sorta out, we all should turn off our unRAID Servers and shut down this site until this matter is handled. Starting with you Squirrel!

 

What you see above IS unRAID and Tom did not develop it from scratch and on his own!

 

So why is it okay for him to do it and not a group of us?

 

It's OPEN SOURCED GNU LICENSED! I can take it, modify it, distribute it or if I wanted too sell it AS IS without making a single change.

 

I will happily use his emhttp (where he would get 100% of the compensation) or I release a fully open sourced version that puts him out of business. Do you think me and my marry bands of people who want this aren't going to market and promote this on all the XBMC forums (and forks of it)? AVS Forum? Green Button? Hard Forum? Media Portal? Mythtv? Tvheadend? Social Media? Blogs? Etc?

 

I already attend a lot the big Linux Shows and present at some of them too. Do you think I wouldn't promote it?

 

Do you not think a COMMUNITY and TEAM of Developers will blow away ONE Guy who seems to be VERY busy doing OTHER THINGS when it comes to development, marketing, support, innovation or even maintaining or participating on his own forum?

 

If you think so... You do not know what the hell you are talking about.

 

Also, why in the hell would people pay for a product that doesn't seem to be supported (even worse if a large majority of us leave for Greener Pastures) for an inferior product that is stuck in 2005 when a better product / better community does the same for FREE. Not to mention, if I am forced to use our version of emhttp... It also works in regular unRAID... Meaning anyone can download unRAID and have total access to 24 Drives without purchasing SQUAT from Tom. Do you see his "support", marketing skills, development cycles, etc. winning out in the long run? I sure as hell don't think so.

 

Them are the apples... If Tom wants to compete, that is fine by me. If he wants to play ball, that is my preference.

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Lets say that UNraid is migrated over to a CentOS distro as the default Linux distro. From there, is it possible to use the "cache" drive as a /data drive for storage of all the programs and package dependencies and such(Similar to another embedded Linux distro such as Android)?

 

You could use your cache driver for your OS / Apps / VMs / Etc. Personally, I like to have things copied to the RAID if I want to keep them.

 

Sure, when I first started out I put all my Apps into VMs but the thrill of that quickly faded. Now my Apps run on my OS along with unRAID. I don't even use VMs for that anymore.

 

If I ran something like a usenet indexer, that would be something I would put in a VM because I would want it to have it's own mysql, OS, drives, etc. but things like Sickbeard, Couchpotato, Subsonic, etc... Not worth the hassle of maintaining a VM, the Linux Distro, copying files from the VM to the Host, etc. Point is, I'm not anal but there is plenty of people who are and find enjoyment in separating everything.

 

My other VMs are XBMC, Windows and Linux Distros I play around with.

 

Just for the sake of appeasing both sides of the fence when it comes to appliance vs full distro while keeping one build being maintained. With my limit knowledge of Linux, couldn't the system boot like it does now into the RAM from the USB but during boot, it looks to the HDD thats not apart of the array, then starts whatever programs or such from there. Wouldn't that be like Symlinking different mount points from either the RAM or actually(sorry if I mistaken the technical terms)?

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It would be very nice if everyone would tone this all down !!

 

As one noted earlier, "civility costs nothing" ... but that's been ignored ever since it was said.

 

It does NO good to post about how much better you are than Tom ...

 

I alone can also run circles around Tom when it comes to development times / cycles, innovating, enhancements, education, writing guides, answering questions, providing support, communicating, etc.

 

... Given a few weeks / month I will have Dual / Triple parity working. Plus I will move the "unRAID fork" from Reiser to BTRFS instead. If you value your data so much. You will want more than one parity drive, want metadata file checking from the file all the way up through the block device level, deduplication, snapshots, CoW, speed increases, (which unRAID can't do now) and a bunch advantages that I do not feel like listing.

 

.. nor is it helpful to threaten to release a "superior" competing version (whether free or not) ...

 

If Tom is too busy to take 5 minutes and respond to this very heated discussion / thread by the end of next week... I will go ahead post a link with an ISO of the Distro that you all choose (with unRAID "baked" in) and all the documentation / guides / screenshots / walkthroughs on how to install / configure / use it. It will have all the things we / I have talked about in this thread enabled, ready to go and torture tested.

 

... It's equally unhelpful for everyone to argue whether or not the intent is to "steal" code; to improve UnRAID; or to destroy it.  Clearly a very near-clone could be developed under the GPL, although I suspect you'd find it's not as simple as you've implied to replicate all of the features.

 

As for the threatened release being "torture tested" ... yet released next week ... I'd argue that those two comments are diametrically opposed.    You don't do thorough software testing in less than a week  :)    Regardless of what other features folks want, I think it's very safe to say that the #1 attribute folks want is for the underlying NAS to be "rock solid" reliable.    That has always been Tom's #1 focus -- to ensure that changes didn't impact that.  A one week release/test/call-it-torture-tested schedule doesn't give much confidence in that regard.

 

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And just because I'm not happy with what I purchased

 

That is something you must deal with then. I don't know why this concept is hard for you to grasping. No one here as said they are unhappy with their purchase, I don't see people demanding a refund. Most people here do want to support Tom. I don't think many people here don't like the unRAID product, but they would like to see it improved. unRAID as it stand and according to the lime-tech website is exactly how you put it, a dumb NAS box. But I would venture to guess the major of users purchased unRAID after seeing how flexible it came be compared to a store bought dumb NAS. Now many of those dumb store bought NAS's can actually run a lot of the same stuff unRAID can. What grumpy and other are doing is trying to make unRAID more then a dumb NAS, with all the interest in plugins and VM's it obvious that the demand for this is there. Just remember none of use said we were unhappy with unRAID we just want it to be better in the future.

 

(To put the waiting in perspective, I have a second server just built to start to play with VM's and sure so the timing of this couldn't be more perfect, but I'm will to let that just sit there if patience can provide a better outcome)

 

 

RE:grumppy, I think lionelhutz and a few others have got under your skin, your posts were generally quite calm before he/they started to poke and prod you. If his/their intentions were to get a rise out of you then they/he have started to succeed. Providing an ultimatum might not be the best way to launch a working relationship with Tom. Were all aware that he moves at a lot slower pace then most of us here, but if there is one thing we are used its waiting. I'm sure we can all wait a few more weeks/months for Tom to get his ducks in a row and start working with you. If he doesn't wan to have anything to do with it by then, cross that bridge when you come to it.

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$100 or 100%?

 

 

;)

 

I took it as him meaning 100%, I'm sure he'll clarify though.

 

From what I've read on this thread, and the other before deletion, it looks to me like Lionelhutz is only stirring the pot, with the intention of making thing spiral out of control.  If that's NOT his intention, he should have posted his say, taken it to PM's (which he may have, don't know, don't really care at this point), or just reported it to the mods to handle (they are here for a reason, and are the only ones in the position to say what should and should not be discussed here, as far as I see, Lionelhutz isn't a mod so I will just choose to ignore his posts from here on out).

 

On the other thread, I chose Centos (I'm familiar with it, use it on a few servers I already run, alongside a Redhat EL server at work).  All I want is a way to run MediaBrowser on my unraid box, and this appears to be the fastest way to get there (needs Mono support among other things, if Unraid was available on any full distro I'd be 90% of the way there now).  To me the idea situation would be an ISO of Centos with the MD mods already in place, where if I choose to use unraid, I add the emhttp from the current release (or release corresponding to the unraid MD mods included).  That covers you on the including emhttp in your distro (and that is assuming that emhttp would work on your Centos as/is).  Then I could go from having to have 2 boxes up and running 24/7 to one box, running both Unraid and MediaBrowser server natively, not under VM's  (already tried the unraid on ESXi a couple years ago, never ran quite right on my hardware, and pretty much was a headache all around at the time). 

 

I currently own a Pro license, so I've paid for my license already, but if this is released 100% opensource, I'd retire my key until such a time that I could get the same functionality through the official releases (full distro, plugin, whatever).  If there were an up-charge to get a full-distro version of Unraid from what I have now, I'd have no problem with that either.

 

 

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Way to go Grumpy, quote half of what I said and ignore the rest.  I then deleted it before you even replied because I didn't want a pissing match.  Like I said stealing might not be the right word, I know Linux is free. If you are as good as you say you are why not start from scratch instead of using Limetech/Tom's code and call it something else?

 

I'm all for making unraid better and I wish Tom would post more but thats how it's been from day one.

 

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$100 or 100%?

;)

I took it as him meaning 100%, I'm sure he'll clarify though.

 

yeah just wanted to make sure he saw + corrected it before some of the angrier folk got all crazy (hence removing my post after he updated his - clarification it had originally said $100 rather than 100%)

 

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If you are as good as you say you are why not start from scratch instead of using Limetech/Tom's code and call it something else?

 

I'm all for making unraid better and I wish Tom would post more but thats how it's been from day one.

 

I can't speak for grumpy, but maybe he truly wants to help improve unRAID, maybe he wants to help Tom along, it's obvious Tom isn't against the help and I'm sure realizes he needs it. I think a lot of us are grateful of the product Tom has created and feel loyal to him and to his product (which might explain why tempers have risen) But that isn't to say the someone like grumpy doesn't have a point where trying to force help upon someone that isn't working with you to accept it can get frustrating.

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