Lime-Technology Shutdown?

[Joe L.]

I think an unofficial revised copy of the manual would be very useful.

 

If Tom would cooperate then as things get documented correctly (in toms viewpoint) he could lift them out of the revised version and add them to the official version, perhaps even removing them from the revised version. In effect he would be editing copy from his associates making the official manual much better.

 

In that way the revised version acts as the official manual with copy changes until Tom approves them at which tme theyare absorbed into the official manual.

 

Also suggest that all revisions/addendums/suggestions be annotated in such a way so the author is obvious.

Excellent Idea.

 

I believe i still have Admin rights on the wiki. If so i could easily create a complete copy of the manual and link to it as the community manual from the wiki homepage. If someone is interested in starting the re-tinker let me know and i will do it. I don't have the time for the next couple of weeks to do much rewriting myself.

[if you put the copy under the unofficial half of the wiki and label it as the un-official manual It would help others to know it is a document written by the users of unRAID.

 

We may need a way to easily identify the changes over time (a change log ?? )  Perhaps a line at the top of each page stating it is the un-official version.

It might also be worth trying to write a statement of what official and unofficial support is, how long it lasts for and what you should expect from it, how to use it. The current situation leads to uncertainty which in turn leads to recurring threads like these. The regulars may have drawn their own conclusions as to what they think support is but new users have no such clarity. In theory that should end the debate. However i think we might struggle to define it (catch 22).

That will need input from Tom, as only he can state user expectations from "official" support.

 

Un-official support is actually much easier.  It is just users of unRAID helping each other as best they can, when they can, based on their own knowledge and experience.

 

Joe L.

[prostuff1]

There has been a lot of stuff said in this thread.  I would agree that the wiki(s) need to be updated a little and maybe a little better organized.  The problem comes in when you have a mass of people all with different ideas on where the information should go.  That is one of the reasons the Topical Index section of the wiki was created. RobJ use to be very active with the wiki, much like myself, but real life can get in the way.  I update stuff here and there as I have time, but with buying a house, finishing college, and starting work full time, I don't have the time to dedicate to the wiki anymore.  I have a list of things that I need to get added to the wiki and I just have not had the time to.

 

As for the comments about how the wiki entries link to threads on the Forum.  That was done on purpose, and for a very good reason.  By linking to the forum thread the wiki entry does not have to be updated every single time a change is made.  If a forum thread is 20 pages long and the application/script has been updated 10 times since its creation then that is a lot of changes to keep track of. Only the creator of the application/script knows what has changed and is able to update his thread.  The best (as far as I am concerned) and easiest way for the Wiki to stay up to date (with as little maintenance as possible) is to link to the thread for that particular application/script.  My personal opinion is that most of the info should be kept in the Forum and then links can be placed in the wiki to direct the user to the right place.  If you do a search in the wiki you will more than likely find what you are looking for.

 

I kind of (that is a big kind of) understand the "I don't want to read a 20 page thread to get FTP running" argument, but then again I don't.  FTP is there, but it is NOT setup by default for a reason.  Limetech does not use it nor support it.  If you discover that it is there then it is your problem to get it working.  I have SSH, FTP, and SFTP up and working and it really did not take me that long to do.  Reading the threads and doing some google searches on VSFTPD lead me to everything that I needed.

[NAS]

There are fundamental problems to linking to the forum:

 

You often have to read loads

You often get 20 pages in and find something has changed so the last 20 pages are now defunct

There is no proper peer review and edit. Much the same as above

But the biggest problem is that forums are rubbish at storing information. I have lost count of how many forums have lost thousands of old posts due to attack, error, bad upgrade or all of above.

 

Saying that wikis only work if everyone edits them. Until you have a culture of "write on the wiki refer to on the forum" wikis dont really work.

 

YMMV and no malice intended

 

Edit: i clsed this early cause of a work call. what we have now is very good. superb source of informaiton but my point is really that if the forum goes, which is the thing most sites lose the most often, we lose the wiki as well

[reggie14]

My personal opinion is that most of the info should be kept in the Forum and then links can be placed in the wiki to direct the user to the right place.  If you do a search in the wiki you will more than likely find what you are looking for.

 

I suspect its a lot easier to use the forum as the source of information, rather than the wiki.  And I suspect all the information that's needed does make it in a post (or a collection of posts) in some fashion.  But, I definitely agree with the points NAS made about the downsides to using the forum in this way.  The big one, in my opinion, is that a forum thread isn't very user-friendly or accessible.

 

I kind of (that is a big kind of) understand the "I don't want to read a 20 page thread to get FTP running" argument, but then again I don't.  FTP is there, but it is NOT setup by default for a reason.  Limetech does not use it nor support it.  If you discover that it is there then it is your problem to get it working.  I have SSH, FTP, and SFTP up and working and it really did not take me that long to do.  Reading the threads and doing some google searches on VSFTPD lead me to everything that I needed.

 

I gave the FTP situation as an example.  More generally, you could make your point against any of the customizations.  As I said in one of my earlier posts, its my position that unRAID relies pretty heavily on user-customizations to augment stock functionality.  Yes, I agree not everyone needs customizations, but the same could be said for nearly any feature in any product.  But since I think customizations are so important to unRAID, I think good documentation for customizations is important.

 

That being said, I also think of FTP as a bit of a special case.  unRAID ships with the FTP server enabled, with a default set of

credentials.  I didn't even know unRAID came with an FTP server until I ran a Nessus scan on my network shortly after setting up my unRAID server.  If unRAID doesn't want to use or support FTP, it really shouldn't be enabled by default.

 

Saying that wikis only work if everyone edits them. Until you have a culture of "write on the wiki refer to on the forum" wikis dont really work.

 

That's a great idea.  I'm not sure how you go about changing that culture, but I think that could result in a huge improvement to the quality of documentation.

[WeeboTech]

what we have now is very good. superb source of informaiton but my point is really that if the forum goes, which is the thing most sites lose the most often, we lose the wiki as well

 

This is a very valid point.  Wiki documentation is usually concise and right to the point.

I think the linking to the forum is a stop gap in the meantime, until someone gathers the howto in a concise manner.

 

[NAS]

I think chaging the culture would actually be alot easier than we think. Basically the guys who rite the really useful info posts are the forum regulars. There are not that many of them. If they started docuemnting on the wiki but posting links in the forum my gut is that things would start to change overnight.

 

One key thing is that we dont go to the other extreme and do what say team XBMC have done. Their wiki is a manual that happens to be on the wiki. If you post something thats not 100% correct or incomplete someone blows a gasket. Wikis... start by one... complete by many.

 

Its amazing how many less skilled users will start to help out.

 

Another thing that works is that when users say thanks we say feel free to help out by writing down what we just helped with in the wiki.

 

As i say its the small things.

 

As for Limetech support/sanction of this I honestly dont think we need any. The wiki clearly has the official section which cant be edited by any user the rest is fair game. That is after all why you have a wiki, if not so whats the point.

[barrygordon]

It seems a lot of people are quoting and re-quoting my original comment.  Thank you all for the implied support for it.  It turns out another community member said the same thing a while back (which I never read) so I was not alone in documenting the thought.

 

A technical document, manual, whatever you wish to call it, must first and foremost be directed to the reader making it easy and useful for them, not for the authors or the editors. Secondly it must be accurate, or as accurate as possible.  To accomplish the first goal involves the mind set of those doing the writing and contributing.  That is why most "good" technical documents/manuals have referees and editors.  It is their responsibility to ensure that the document meets that key goa and is accuratel.

 

With regards to accuracy, I have my viewpoints as do others. I just explained this to my grandson who asked why don't I sell more of what I write?  This was after a lengthly discussioin on why I just won't give him my keys to AnyDVD HD. I explained to him that is theft (and his chosen job profession is law enforcement, ironic). I told him he asked me to do the worng thing, and I would gladly buy him a copy of the package. I explained my personal viewpoint on support of something I charge for. It is, in my mind, unending unless I explicitly state otherwise and perhaps charge separately for it. I have written and freely given away advice and code, generally object only. I charged for one package which I wrote originally for myself and then decided what the heck, let me see if I can become an "entrepeneur".  I charged $29.95 and in two years accumulated a net total of $6000+.  Interestingly there were minor bugs, but most of the support came down to helping the users with their environments; networks, firewalls, routers, PC's, etc.

 

If I author a piece of code, I implicitly feel I have to support it as many here also seem inclined to do.  In the document we are discussing each section needs to be owned by somebody, generally the autor of the "Object" being documented.  That owner has to act as the editor and approve changes to what has been written other wise the accuracy will be impossible to maintain.

 

My 2 Cents.

[NAS]

... In the document we are discussing each section needs to be owned by somebody, generally the autor of the "Object" being documented.  That owner has to act as the editor and approve changes to what has been written other wise the accuracy will be impossible to maintain.

 

Unfortunately thats almost exactly how wikis dont work. They work by all contributing as a whole. Very soon the actual person that started the page is just a name in the history and no more important that any of the other authors.

 

Or put another way, if i create a page called "support" and write the words "Contact Limetech" in it do i then have to take responsibility and give permission to every other person for ever more that wants to write in that page. That is unfeasible as quite soon a few key players will have ownership of most of the wiki and a silly amount of work to do. Also if someone comes along that knows more than me on a subject do i need to take a class at school before i approve his changes?

 

Wikis work by community and peer review. The concept of owner is deprecated.

[WeeboTech]

Folks, great work at moving in a positive direction. we should probably split the Wiki related discussion into a new thread.

 

I still think there are other outstanding issues, but the wiki related topic is worthy of a concise on topic thread.

[NAS]

Very good point.

 

Id suggest we get back to wording a support page faq/introduction.. that is after all the crux of everything. Everyone perceptions of what support is or should be is different and thats where the flames start.

 

I would request though that when proposing wording or commenting people keep in mind this is a completely commercial product. yes there are some REALLY helpful dudes here but they could all go away overnight (in theory at least) and that would leave the heart of the support. There should be a clear split between Commercial and Community support and what that means to the end user in terms of turn around and guarantee of reliability.

 

My gut is that it should be really simple as a starting point:

 

Commercial support is available via email with a normal turn around of xx days.

Community support is available via the forum and will likely result in a response in under a few hours.

[purko]

we should probably split the Wiki related discussion into a new thread.

Right!  We should split that.  Let's leave this thread here exclusively for blasting Limetech.

 

[WeeboTech]

we should probably split the Wiki related discussion into a new thread.

Right!  We should split that.  Let's leave this thread here exclusively for blasting Limetech.

 

 

What comes out of this discussion is not necessarily a blast, but a dumping of what user perceptions are.

This is something for limetech to review.

 

 

@NAS, I feel it could be helpful, but I also feel limetech needs to review, author or bless what is published.

 

 

[NAS]

TBH i would hope that Limetech already reviews what is published via the wiki since it is part of the corporate website.

 

I really don't want to do the whole write, ask for blessing, publish route. It is my experience that wikis of this nature just suck. I understand this is a unique page we are talking about but I propose we write, publish then inform Limetech.... otherwise it could take forver

[purko]

@WeeboTech: Did you lose your sense of humor?

 

[WeeboTech]

@WeeboTech: Did you lose your sense of humor?

 

I must have... I did not see a smiley. Ooopsss.

[WeeboTech]

TBH i would hope that Limetech already reviews what is published via the wiki since it is part of the corporate website.

 

I really don't want to do the whole write, ask for blessing, publish route. It is my experience that wikis of this nature just suck. I understand this is a unique page we are talking about but I propose we write, publish then inform Limetech.... otherwise it could take forver

 

 

I can see the benefit of doing this, my feeling is it borders on policy and limtech needs to bless it.

I would not assume that limetech reviews everything published on the Wiki.

They seem to be quite busy these days.

 

I suppose we could move forward with this as it can always be changed.

 

[NAS]

I reckon so, have a go and it can always be removed. I would take a bash at it but my views seems to be some of the more extreme and likely a bad starting point. Somewhere within lies a compromise

[Rajahal]

NAS, since you are the only one with admin rights, can you take the first step?  Copy the official manual over to the 'user contributed' side, and then we'll all start hacking it apart.

 

Whoever gets in there first should just throw up a huge disclaimer at the top that it is under construction and shouldn't be trusted just yet.  That way we can take our time working on it, and give LimeTech a chance to chime in.

[NAS]

I was planning to wait until the Support page is done first

[Rajahal]

Linky?

[NAS]

It doesn't exist until someone creates it. I am not against me doing it but I cant be arsed getting flamed again for my opinions (which is inevitable).

 

Feel free to take a stab at it

[Rajahal]

Hmm, I see what you mean.  I tried to create the new page in the 'getting started' section, like this:

 

    * Getting Started

          o Compare License Features - Which version is right for you?

          o Official unRAID Software Downloads - Get unRAID here

          o Hardware Compatibility - Are your motherboard, networking, and disk controllers compatible?

          o USB Flash Drive Preparation - Quick guide to making your unRAID bootable USB flash drive.

          o Official Manual - Read this at least once. It won't take long and your unRAID experience will greatly benefit from it.

        o unOfficial Manual - unRAID Manual created by unRAID users

          o Release Notes - A change history, of features added and bugs fixed

 

But it seems that the entire 'getting started' section is off limits to us lowly wiki editors.  I'm guessing that even if you were to create that link with your admin rights, we still wouldn't be able to edit it.  Perhaps you could create an entirely new section of the wiki and allow us to edit it?  I don't see any other part where this unofficial manual would really fit....

[Joe L.]

Well, I put a page here

http://lime-technology.com/wiki/index.php?title=Un-Official_UnRAID_Manual

with the full official manual as the starting point.

[Rajahal]

OK, great.  How would one get to it without the direct link?  Or would you prefer that it not be readily available until some work has gone into it?

[Joe L.]

OK, great.  How would one get to it without the direct link?  Or would you prefer that it not be readily available until some work has gone into it?

It is in place on the Un-Official page at this link

http://lime-technology.com/wiki/index.php?title=Unofficial_Documentation

 

And it, in turn is in place at the main wiki link here under User-Contributed-Content:

http://lime-technology.com/wiki/index.php?title=UnRAID_Wiki

 

By all means, edit it... amend it... fix it...  It has a bold title stating it is un-official.

 

I've only made one change so far, and I've surrounded my added text with

<font color=blue> ..... </font>

 

I'm not sure if that is a good idea yet, so I'll ask for ideas.  How do we, or should we identify our changes?  Although it makes it much easier for a user to see the enhancement/changes, it makes it much more difficult to cut/paste the changes back into the official manual at a later time without it too having the added text in blue.

 

Joe L.