Roadmap - Tom we need one.

[NAS]

Tom I have pondered this over and I am now certain we need a roadmap.

 

Whist i realise this is a commercial product I don't think a roadmap would release any secrets that aren't already discussed in the forum. If we had one we would know what you are working on and what to expect next.

 

Recently the forum has exploded with ideas and people starting to modify unRAID... and all these people sit anxiously on snippets of info of whats coming next.

 

I propose we abandon the laundry list approach and compile a roadmap. It doesn't need to be detailed or absolutely definitive but it would give you a means to feedback to us whats happening and sneak some previews without having to follow every forum thread.

 

Once a version is released the roadmap entry for that version would simply be tweaked and made into release notes so its not really much extra work.

 

It would also give users the option to debate whats more important for what upcoming version i.e. if somehting is in the roadmap for 2 versiosns away users could voice their opinion that it should be in the next version etc

 

Opinions Tom et al?

[parsec]

haha,, Tom probably did not realise that he is now in the entertainment industry.

He needs to cater for the mob's demand for more information, more things to discuss, more things to evaluate...

 

So he should spend time being a spindoctor, not a programmer. ?

 

/Rene

 

 

 

 

[WeeboTech]

So he should spend time being a spindoctor, not a programmer. ?

 

Eventually a single core developer has to become a project leader and get help from around them to build the project to it's next level.

 

A roadmap might stimulate people to assist in a planned direction

I think it's a good idea. We have a laundry list, but no idea of what's coming next.

[parsec]

wow !!. Tons of business litterature, discussing the ways to achive success, cut to one sentence.. cool !!!

 

My 50cents, would be that he should stay doing what he does best, and then get a marketing/spin guy to keep the crowd happy.

Easiest thing would let the spinguy pretend to be Tom, and thereby satisfy the crave for Tom-words.

 

/Rene

 

[bubbaQ]

Eventually a single core developer has to become a project leader and get help from around them to build the project to it's next level.

 

Spoken like a pointy-headded boss -- and utterly false.  There are plenty of fabulous one-man projects out there.  While *you* may want the development team expanded, good business and financial considerations often dictate just the opposite.  unRAID is a tiny niche market and nothing short of purchase by Microsoft or Sun is going to change that.

 

(sigh)  More "work" demanded by the proletariat masses, which actually takes time AWAY from productive work on the product.  Typical.

 

The posters in this forum are a VERY small minority of unRAID users.  I am a software developer of several products.  Number of forum registrants for a product like this often runs about 1 for each 200 to 400 actual users of the product.  It is probably a little higher here because of the self-selected customer base for a technical product like unRAID.  Tom is quick to jump on BUGS posted here.  That's enough for me.

 

All a roadmap would do is piss people off when it got changed or it wasn't met, and tie Tom's hands for future development. 

 

Look at cache drive support.  Excellent new feature, that was *not* being beaten on the forum drum.  Tom developed the product in the market and has MUCH more experience and better feel for his customer base than anyone here.  I'm sure he has even more features in the wings you have never though of.  I vote we continue to drop suggestions in the suggestion box, and otherwise leave Tom alone to do with his product whatever he wants.  He is in a much better position to know what is best for his product than a handful of bloggers, no matter how devoted or skilled they are.

[SSD]

I can see both sides on this issue.  As a customer I would like more visibility into what's coming.  As a member of this active forum community, I think we should have some input into what should be coming.  But as a developer I'd feel that I'd like to create some anticipation and impress my user base with advanced features when they're ready, not when I think them up.  I'd want to be able to change my mind as often as I want and not feel obligated to any particular feature in any particular release.  Maybe Tom is smart to just stay quiet about what's coming in terms of bigger enhancements. 

 

But I do think that Tom should be more responsive to smaller forum suggestions.  For example, changing the name on ONE button is so trivial.  Joe L. has been advocating for it for MONTHS, if not longer.  Joe answers 5-10 of the hardest questions on this forum every week, with the patience of Job.  He is an awesome resource doing this for nothing more than the satisfaction of helping others (and has to be saving Tom a ton of time in responses to cries for help).  Joe repeats himself over and over warning new users NOT to press the restore button.  I guess I just don't understand why, on something like this, Tom isn't all over it. 

 

But on the big roadmap issue, I am fine to stay in blissful ignorance, awating and speculating on Tom's next big enhancement!

[NAS]

eh what on earth are you all going on about. All a roadmap is are the release notes bullet point posted before the release is complete. Hardly earth shattering.. its a few minutes extra work at best.

 

Just about every project out there has a roadmap why on earth shouldn't we have one to?

 

If Tom is developing the product in isolation of the community as you are suggesting then thats cool. Lets here that officially and we can take all the work the community have been doing elsewhere.

[WeeboTech]

Spoken like a pointy-headded boss -- and utterly false.  There are plenty of fabulous one-man projects out there.  While *you* may want the development team expanded, good business and financial considerations often dictate just the opposite.  unRAID is a tiny niche market and nothing short of purchase by Microsoft or Sun is going to change that.

 

(sigh)  More "work" demanded by the proletariat masses, which actually takes time AWAY from productive work on the product.  Typical.

 

LOL!!!!!  - Listen or read The e myth.

I actually think unRAID has a chance to be a contender.

 

Nothing was demanded. There was a request. and I don't think it would take that much time away.

 

The posters in this forum are a VERY small minority of unRAID users.

And the posters in this forum probably handle a good deal of support to. Don't belittle the value of the community.

Joe L, RobJ and other seniors handle an enormous amount of the questions.  /me takes hat of to "all" senior members.

[NLS]

I am sure Tom internally has something more specific than the laundry list. I mean he cannot possibly go like that: "well ok 4.3 is over... let's think what to do next for 4.4 now..." and sing a child song to choose over the list...

 

One more thing: I fully agree with bjp999, in all respects. (1) A bit more visibility for the active community (that btw - esp. a couple of people - really helps keeping this thing going) wouldn't be bad. (2) Tom indeed should be more responsive to small suggestions. In fact I was lucky enough to get my NTPD very very very soon after request... NC too (wow, now that I think of it... wow), but the "restore" button why? It eats up the precious time (not only Tom's time is precious) Joe gives to support the forum. At least do it for him. (3) Roadmap, I don't need that much detail. A rough target the project moves to, would be welcome though. Except if he doesn't have that in mind at all - which again would be nice to know...

 

 

[parsec]

Im not a developer, however, I manage a few.

Time/braincycles is money, and usually customers prefer spending money on Needs. The Nice will have to wait, until there is not more Needs.

 

In this case, Im the customer, and surprise!!!,, I want my investment spend on Need, and not Nice.

/Rene

 

 

 

 

 

[NAS]

Need is defined by discussion and userbase feedback. Discussion comes from ideas of whats happening now and whats planned for later. Development in a vacuum is not an optimal approach when trying to sell a product.

[Billped]

I have managed large IT projects for many years and a published roadmap is an integral part of such endeavors.

 

However, in this case I think it may be a bad idea.

 

UnRAID is a product constantly reevaluating its audience - a good thing.

 

Were a roadmap to be published, I feel it would overly constrain development and eventually lead to strife.  How so?  Let's say Tom puts UPS support as an item to be rolled out in version 4.5 but then doesn't release it.  People will chime in with "I bought this product based on the commitment to offer UPS support and it didn't happen - I feel screwed and want my money back".

 

If Tom does take this idea to heart I would hope that he makes it generic enough to allow for flexibility.  Perhaps something like:

 

* Each release will include bug fixes

* All releases are subject to change - no commitments are implied

* 4.4 will make the product more stable

* 4.5 will offer more technical "hooks" to satisfy the programmer crowd

* 4.6 will offer end-user features and UI enhancements

* 4.7 will address speed/performance concerns

....

 

 

Cheers,

Bill

[NAS]

Seems very sensible approach to me.

 

I would say though that there is an implied "feature X is coming soon" regardless if it is written as a milestone or not. If a feature really is coming but not for a long while then milestone it a long way in the future. Dont let users hopes get dashed with every release that comes out and doesnt have the feature then are personally waiting for.

 

Community feedback on the roadmap milestones is key to developing a product in a way to best meet the userbases needs. This has to be balanced with the developers interest however it IS a balancing act. Roadmaps help focus everyone, users and developers, to a common goal.

 

Importantly they help prevent consistent shiny feature introduction over the boredom of the fixes or mundane features.

 

To add some weight to this I think the cache drive is a great idea and a great feature. I suspect strongly though that many users would have far preferred other long outstanding features. Notice i say some users and not all users.

 

No one is saying the community should drive the roadmap but it should have an input. If they dont then that should be understood and their investment in the community as a whole should be tempered accordingly.

 

 

 

My last point is a simple one and is intended to be purely factual and not a flame or escalation.

 

This whole debate is over perhaps 20 lines of roadmap text and 30 mins of work. Its complete overkill, almost debate for debates sake and ultimately completely futile as the norm now the one person who means anything does not get involved. This thread will go on for a while; peter out; have a few heated debates then get forgotten. We need direction from the top.

[parsec]

a roadmap, would be 2hours of work, and then 300hours defending it.

/Rene

 

[WeeboTech]

I'm a  customer too, and I NEED to know if I'm wasting my time doing something to enhance an environment or if I'm wasting my time using it.

 

I've proposed the environment to several large corporate firms who had various remarks on how they did not know where the product was headed, how to get contact support and if they could get features into the environment without allot of fuss.

 

then 300hours defending it.

/Rene

 

What a load of crap.. all people are asking is for some bullets of what's ahead.

Billped had a perfect example. Tom has never had to defend his position.  People are just asking where things are headed.

 

If UPS support is not soon ahead then maybe some of us could take that on.

[Joe L.]

Im not a developer, however, I manage a few.

Time/braincycles is money, and usually customers prefer spending money on Needs. The Nice will have to wait, until there is not more Needs.

 

In this case, Im the customer, and surprise!!!,, I want my investment spend on Need, and not Nice.

/Rene

I've been involved in software development since 1980.  And involved with software debugging since 1973.  Yeah, I go back so far, that on one computer the I/O device was a teletype that pre-dated ascii (Still had letters/figures shift).  I've managed and led development teams, as well as done individual projects where I was the analyst, developer, tester, trainer, documenter, and customer too.  Like you, here I'm mostly the customer. 

 

Almost all of Tom's focus for this past series of releases have not been for items that were "Nice," or for "Need," but bugfixes.  Comparing the list of items in the various releases with the "Laundry List" shows some progress, but not in any specific order.

 

What seems missing is the re-prioritization of the laundry list.  In total, in the recent series of releases, there 4 features from the laundry list added.  The other items were mostly bug fixes of various types and flavors.  Many improvements were made to include more recent versions of various drivers. 

 

The major change from 4.2.3 to 4.3-beta1 was the ability to see immediately in user-shares files added to disks shares.  Invisible  to many was the support of more than 1 Gig of ram. and the addition of an ftp server.

Between 4.3-beta3 and 4.3beta4 he added the Cache drive feature.

In 4.3 final he added the NTP time protocol package.

 

For the most part, each beta release was not a "Nice" to have, but a "Bugfix" with some additional work thrown in.  I think a "Roadmap" or, at the least, a re-prioritization of the laundry list is overdue.  What is missing most is communication from Tom.  We're all here just guessing what is going on.

 

Joe L.

 

Changes from 4.3 to 4.3.1

    * Bug fix: fix yet another "clear new disks" bug.  (could not clear two disks of different sizes)

Changes from 4.3-beta6 to 4.3 (final)

    * Bug fix: correct bug introduced in 4.3-beta4 which could cause New disks added to an existing array to not be cleared(!).

    * New Feature: added NTP (Network Time Protocol) package.

    * Bug fix: fixed possible shutdown/reboot if user refreshes browser after previous shutdown/reboot.

    * Improvement: subtle change in 'split-level' value 0. A value of 0 is now interpreted as "split permissible at all levels".

    * Bug fix: fix problem if user shares enabled before first disk is formatted, user shares would not show up unless stop/start array executed.

    * Bug fix: fix problem where new disks added to an existing array were not sent proper spin-down time delay.

    * Bug fix: restored missing 'ethtool', 'dosfsck', and 'compress/uncompress' commands.

    * Bug fix: fix problem with ftp being unable to 'cd' into directories.

    * Bug fix: fix problem where mover 'mv' error messages were not getting into syslog.

    * Improvement: added the 'dumb' terminal terminfo file.

Changes from 4.3-beta5 to 4.3-beta6

    * Improvement: update to latest Intel network driver (7.6.15.4).

    * Bug Fix: Correct problem enabling SMART before reading disk temperatures.

    * Bug Fix: Fix crash that may occur if there is a large number of user shares.

Changes from 4.3-beta4 to 4.3-beta5

    * Bug Fix: Fix 'hang' that may occur starting syslogd.

    * Bug Fix: Add 'sync' as last step in 'mover' script

Changes from 4.3-beta3 to 4.3-beta4

    * New feature: cache disk support.

    * Bug Fix: enable SMART before reading disk temperature.

    * Improvement: upgrade from linux kernel 2.6.24.3 to 2.6.24.4 (refer to http://lwn.net/Articles/274741).

    * Improvement: upgrade from Samba 3.0.28 to Samba 3.0.28a (addresses some Vista issues, refer to http://us1.samba.org/samba/history/samba-3.0.28a.html).

    * Improvement: added back a few more missing libraries needed for certain user customizations.

    * Bug Fix: Support normal expansion of array when Parity is not installed.

Changes from 4.3-beta2 to 4.3-beta3

    * Bug fix: Turn off user share file system debugging output accidentally left on - doh!

Changes from 4.3-beta1 to 4.3-beta2

    * Bug fix: Restore missing 'installpkg' script.

    * Bug fix: Fixed possible user share crash if top-level disk directories contain ordinary files.

    * Bug fix: Fixed warning message generated by 'find' when searching user shares.

    * Bug fix: Fixed problem reporting correct hostname to DHCP server.

Changes from 4.2.3 to 4.3-beta1

    * New Feature: With user shares enabled, directories/files created directly in a disk share will show up immediately in the correct user share.

    * New Feature: Included 'vsftpd' server.

    * Improvement: Upgrade to linux kernel 2.6.24.3.

    * Improvement: Enable kernel support of up to 4GB of memory.

 

Ye Olde Laundry List (items in blue are now implemented)

The List:

- increase write performance  (cache drive as partial solution)

- support multi-core processors & memory beyond 1GB

- get S3 powermode (standby) working

- add cpuspeed support

- support additional file systems such as XFS, NTFS

 

- automatic save/restore of Flash 'config' directory to a designated hard disk file

- UPS monitoring

- email alerts

 

- add option to let Parity Check be a true 'check', ie, don't write corrected data, just report occurrences of sync error(s)

- better 'clearing' of new disks

- support more than 1 array (parity group) in same system

- permit some disks to be outside the array. This will let you select devices which will not be included in the parity-protected array.

- concatenated parity drives

- hot spares

 

- implement shorter disk spin down delays and per-disk control

- add function to execute 'file system check' on the data drives

- implement drive over-temp spin-down

 

- add interface to let user easily specify jumbo frame sizes

- add support for 2 (or more?) network interfaces

 

- NFS support

- AFP support

- an ftp server (looking at vsftpd)

- http sever (perhaps apache!)

- UPnP

- Integrated wizd server

- Slimserver 6.5.0. support

- other misc servers, eg, "Galleon"

- hamachi vpn

- iSCSI

 

- get time from the internet (ntpd)

- Tally used/free space totals on Main page

- Provide some help info with Management Utility, eg, using alt tags, etc.

- Let user select display units (in bytes, KB, MB, GB, etc).

- provide internationalization support, e.g., in System Management Utility

- integrate css in management utility. This will permit "skinning" and customization

- make array management more "script friendly", e.g, fix 'powerdown' command

 

- implement theft-deterrence encryption system

 

[bubbaQ]

Rene is absolutely correct.  And the reason Tom has not had to defend a roadmap because he hasn't done one.  If there was a roadmap, the boards would flow with venom when it wasn't met, or if it was changed... .some people consider roadmaps as contracts, and they will make your live miserable.

 

If you are "waiting" for a feature and will change your behavior based on a roadmap, you are foolish.  That's vaporware, and I've seen a LOT of it in my 35 years in this business.  I once had someone threaten to sue me because I changed a "roadmap" and had to refund his purchase to shut him up.... and there are lots of people like that out there.

 

I am perfectly happy with the laundry list.  If some folks are hot and heavy for a feature, they can put their money where their mouth is and sponsor the feature they want.  Many projects, such as mnoGoSearch, have used that system to good results.  Novell used to (and may still) do the same thing.

[NLS]

There is one "smelly" element in the whole thing. Some of us (really really this is not to offend Tom in any way), think (I have had my share of PMs with people - you know better than me that some are never vocal publicly - unlike me) that the laundry list is like that (and we get no info on the future near or distant) for another reason... Tom decides what is next by what he KNOWS he can do next. I.E. the laundry list is in fact a list of "things to learn how to do". Again no insult to Tom (after all even if this is true, it is not something to be insulted), but I heard it from at least one person and to be honest I couldn't present him an opposing argument.

 

In any case, in terms of organization, ever growing user satisfaction, development and in general "making the next step", Tom will need to expand this business (i.e. human resources).

 

If all was perfect there would be someone to redesign the interface, someone to streamline new features, someone to provide ACTIVE support (inc. the forum), someone to organize and make the decisions (Tom) and even someone to push this to sell (contact the proper channels, advertise why and how it is better than alternatives etc.). Initially I'd say one extra person (for #1 and #2 and help in #3) than Tom and by next year one more (for #3 and #5).

 

My 0.05 euro (because I've been in his shoes, not with software, but in IT and really the same thing... there is a time where you either make this "next step", or get stuck in the mud)

 

 

[WeeboTech]

If some folks are hot and heavy for a feature, they can put their money where their mouth is and sponsor the feature they want.

With all due respect, that didn't work, I tried that early on and it was met with no response.

 

the boards would flow with venom when it wasn't met, or if it was changed...

The one point that Tom always mentions is that he feels this community is one of the nicest ones around.

I agree, and I think we are adult enough to handle roadblocks and detours.

People are asking for milestones. That's it.

In my case I could help develop packages, but do I go further or wait and see what's up a head?

A roadmap gives me a hint on direction and perhaps helps me accelerate down the path.

 

I'm done, I'm beginning to not care anymore.

[NAS]

It continues to astound me how much debate people are prepared to put into this topic. When i started it I assumed it was a no brainer. I still think it is a no brainer and all the debate is pointless and symptomatic of a bigger issue.

 

Bullet points people thats all that being asked for. Take a step back and realise how trivial a request this really is.

[SSD]

This is the dumbest thread we've ever had IMO.

 

Everyone is getting frustrated and NASUser continues to stir the pot saying how easy it would be to create a few bullets.

 

Truth is this is 100% Tom's decision, and he has not been on the forums in several days so likely does not know this thread even exists.  Continuing the banter of he should or he shouldn't is just pointless.

 

Tom maintains a "laundry list" which Joe L. explained.  It is close to what is being discussed here as a roadmap, but has not been updated by Tom in quite a while.  Maybe he'll update it in response to this thread.  Let's not forget that the #1 complaint with unRAID prior to 4.3 was the slow write speeds.  Tom told us he was working on this as his top priority - and he addressed it in 4.3.

 

unRAID is a pretty cool piece of technology, and we're here because we're pretty happy and impressed wtih it.  Tom is addressing the few outstanding bugs in a very responsive way, which will conclude with a very stable 4.3.x release.  We all want this.

 

Let's all just take a chill pill.  Tom will read this in time and he will decide how or if he wants to respond, either by word or action.

 

Peace.

[NAS]

stir the pot indeed. nonsense.

 

heres a sample roadmap for the last 2 versions:

 

 

4.3.1 - Bug fixes

4.3    - Bug fixes and NTP (Network Time Protocol) feature

 

 

hardly earth shattering amounts of effort.

 

If speed fixes are the current area of effort then the next roadmap would be

 

4.3.2 - Speed fixes

 

 

 

[NAS]

Polite bump for Tom. Please no flames.

 

Can we have a small update of what's happening. Since the last version in July the community has exploded with ideas and modifications and lots of them could easily be merged into the main official branch and warrant new version alone.

 

Also the reversion to the old method of spin down control is eagerly awaited by many users.

[olympia]

Also the reversion to the old method of spin down control is eagerly awaited by many users.

 

Also one vote for this one!

[SSD]

Tom's last forum post was 8/22.  Hope all is well.