February 10, 200917 yr I have recently been getting serious about getting SageTV up and running at home. I first tried last summer and this is my 2nd attempt. I am still having issues with one tuner. Hopefully I'll be able to get it figured out quickly, but getting questions answered on their forums is not as easy as here. Anyway, there is quite a following of WHS users on the SageTV forums. Despite being very different, it competes with unRAID as a home media server. I was not really too familiar with it, so did some research. It is basically a stripped down version of Windows Server 2003 for ~$100. The packaging and ease of administration make this an "appliance" type device. It can be dl'ed for a 4-month free trial and later purchased for DIYers, but more often is sold bundled in pre-configured servers. It allows drives to be "pooled" which creates a virtual drive. I am not sure how, under the covers, it manages the space, but from an end-user perspective it is just a big disk. You can add more disks (any size) to the pool and available space will grow. You can also add more traditional non-pooled disks. You can specificy certain directories that should be mirrored across more than one disk. It is not the parity concept of unRAID so not nearly as efficient in terms of overall redundancy, but for those that want to mirror their photographs and mp3 files, it may be more space efficient. It has good write performance. There is a feature where it will automatically backup computers on the LAN. The set it and forget it model for backups seems pretty appealing. And there is a feature to allow secure remote access to the WHS server via the Internet. Through this it can access your entire Intranet "securely." I think it includes a free domain name. (I have noticed, sporadically, people here asking how to connect their unRAID servers to the Internet, and we are pretty discouraging of that. Perhaps they were comparing unRAID to WHS?) Clearly unRAID and WHS have different intents and philosophies, but I still think it helps to be aware of other products that are similar in concept to unRAID. I am not sure how popular WHS is, but I think it is likely gaining a large market share. unRAID is a vastly better redundant storage server, but for users that are more concerned with remote access and automated backups, WHS is pretty compelling. Tom might be smart to position unRAID against WHS and provide some of the same capabilities. Anyone have any experience with WHS? I may try it out with SageTV someday.
February 10, 200917 yr I am not sure how popular WHS is, but I think it is likely gaining a large market share. WHS is very popular on the avsforum. I think one of the pitfalls is the OS is on it's own disk and some form of raid or backup is required(or advisable). If you loose the OS disk, you loose some of the definitions of where data is stored. I remember one complaint that if the system is rebuilt disks added into a pool are formatted first. I've not followed it through. Also, Directories are backed up across drives, not full drives like unRAID. Each directory has to be marked to be redundant. If you have a large directory structure this could be cumbersome. Perhaps someone with experience in both environments could provide a good comparison. (pros/cons).
February 10, 200917 yr I spent alot of time researching WHS. Eventually i abandoned it as an option for 2 reasons 1. RAID 1 - nonsense for a media server 2. history of some pretty serious data storage bugs I agree though theres a big market out there and IMO the lack of a serious looking web management interface seriously hinders unRAID marketability. The interface while robust looks home made compared to its competitors. Shame really
February 11, 200917 yr I haven't worked with WHS much, but the two compelling features for me are backup management and remote desktop to other machines. For environments with multiple Windows desktop/laptop machines especially with non-technically savvy users, the backup management is a great tool. From what I can remember (when I installed an eval last year), it has a red-light/green-light task bar icon that easily lets the user know whether the machine is backed up or not. Sure, you could set something like Acronis to automatically back up, but this simple visual notification adds a ton of value. I think the admin might even get red lights if others haven't backed up. Not sure about that though. The other feature that I *think* is in there is the ability to remotely control machines via RDP via the WHS. I think this would be coming in externally into the WHS and then being able to easily RDP to any machine on the lan. Again, great for multi-windows environments of a non-tech savvy household. Only bad thing is that Vista Home Premium doesn't have RDP. Oh well. I think unRAID and WHS are very different products with a little bit of overlap. For digital media storage, I love unRAID for its each-disk-is-a-complete-filesystem architecture, but I recently bought WHS recently to manage my backups. I should be able to provide more info after I've used WHS for a while, but for my needs, I'm probably not going to push it anywhere near its limits.
February 12, 200917 yr 1. RAID 1 - nonsense for a media server I agree. Some folks have got around the mirror/redundant inefficiency by configuring a Raid5 array and exposing it to WHS as a single disk. Of course, this has all the existing limitations/inefficiencies of Raid5 vs unRaid, and is must be more complicated managing (growing it or replacing drives) as the base OS sees the array as a single drive... so I suppose the array has to be managed outside of WHS.
February 12, 200917 yr Lol using RAID 5 cards for WHS is like buying a Ferrari and having to change the engine to use it. WHS is IMO fundamentally flawed as a media dump. However the windows backup solution it offers is excellent but that hardly justifys having to buy 2TB to have 1TB of storage.
February 12, 200917 yr Lol using RAID 5 cards for WHS is like buying a Ferrari and having to change the engine to use it. WHS is IMO fundamentally flawed as a media dump. However the windows backup solution it offers is excellent but that hardly justifys having to buy 2TB to have 1TB of storage. I agree, it seems pointless to "have" to buy a raid card to use WHS. I know you don't have to but i much prefer the way unRaid does its parity instead of mirroring, tis much more efficient. The backups are kinda nice though. If AFP was ever implemented I could use Time Machine on my Mac to backup to one the drives (which I would really really like to do).
February 13, 200917 yr I'm currently using both a WHS server (for my SageTV server, Windows workstation backup system, Comskip for Sage, RDP to my machines on the local network from remote, sharing my pictures and such on the net, etc), and a Unraid server, (which houses my xvid/DVD/bluray movies, and a general data-dump, all parity protected). As I'm using them for basically 2 different functions, they function well together in my network. Unraid's parity-protection of the array makes for great piece of mind, and to me seems much more efficient than the duplication on the WHS server. Unraid's booting off a single 1g USB stick (in my config) makes it much easier to move from system to system or upgrade the hardware, unlike WHS, which requires at least a 20g hard drive for the boot partition, which also isn't backed up at all, nor redundant, loose that partition/drive, and your server is down. Over at the Sage forums a few of the users are using a specific Sata port multiplier that basically takes 2 identical drives, and mirrors them, which they are using for the OS partition. I'm interested in the mirrored backup for the OS partition, so I'll probably be ordering the parts needed for this next week. Sage makes a WHS-specific release of their software, and it works quite well on that platform, providing you can get 2003-compatible drivers for your tuners (I'm using HVR-2250's right now, and planning on adding 2 HD-PVR's to the mix in the next month or so, giving me 6 tuners on that system). While they do offer a linux version, the Windows tuner support seems to be much better. I'm quite happy with the WHS setup I'm running (except when I added a DOA 750g HD last night and almost lost the system, drive set up and formatted fine, but when I tried to remove an older smaller drive and it move the data over to the new drive, all hell broke loose, too me half the night last night, and a few hours today to get it all back running again, Unraid's clear would have caught the problem, so there's another point in it's favor). As for my unraid box, once I got everything in the case, booted the key, and set up the drives, it's been pretty much a non-issue to keep it running. I've only had a couple issues (mainly when re-routing my cables), and the system handled adding larger drives, moving parity, then moving the old parity into the array easily (same for replacing a dead drive, was a no-brainer). As for NAS' comments, I agree with the raid 5 cards in WHS being not much use, but the comment about having to buy 2TBs to get 1tb of storage, for a small unraid box, you have the same issue (one for parity, one for data), but adding additional drives for storage cuts down the overhead.
February 16, 200917 yr Author There was a discussion on the Sage forum of folks planning to get enough disks to mirror ALL of their drive space in WHS (we're talking 10 extra 1.5T drives!). I posted this and got a negative response from one of the main WHS users / advocates. The people that would be reading that thread might be good candidates for unRAID. If a few unRAID / Sage users chimed in, it might generate more interest in unRAID over there.
February 25, 200917 yr If you're talking about S_M_E, you'll likely get a negative response on anything, lol. I think the big put-off for him was the fact it was linux based though.
March 13, 200917 yr I have been researching this a lot to determine my best path forward. I currently have no spare parts lying around and no current server. I really like WHS for the features already mentioned as well as the ability to easily combine other purpose server boxes to run on the same environment. I like the JBOD ease of use for expansion as well, very similar to UnRaid in that respect. But as everyone has mentioned, the mirror backup is ludicrous. And the no op system backup seems very shortsighted. My primary goal is a single box. With this in mind (and the fact i know NO Linux), it makes Unraid a difficult choice. Difficult because it does EVERYTHING right, except the inability to easily do more than just be an array. I have read all the threads out there on VM ware and running these within Unraid or UnRaid inside a VM. On top of all that, i could still have to learn all bout utilizing a VM and the shortcomings with that software. Right now, i am leaning towred WHS utilizing FlexRaid to parity every disk. This is the closest i can come to a workable solution. I would LOVE if you UnRaid experts could provide more information and discussion on these.
March 13, 200917 yr What applications do you want to run on the server? I run all of these right now on my unRAID box: torrents client newsgroup client web server home automation security system monitoring weather monitoring media serving
March 13, 200917 yr Author I have been researching this a lot to determine my best path forward. I currently have no spare parts lying around and no current server. I really like WHS for the features already mentioned as well as the ability to easily combine other purpose server boxes to run on the same environment. I like the JBOD ease of use for expansion as well, very similar to UnRaid in that respect. But as everyone has mentioned, the mirror backup is ludicrous. And the no op system backup seems very shortsighted. My primary goal is a single box. With this in mind (and the fact i know NO Linux), it makes Unraid a difficult choice. Difficult because it does EVERYTHING right, except the inability to easily do more than just be an array. I have read all the threads out there on VM ware and running these within Unraid or UnRaid inside a VM. On top of all that, i could still have to learn all bout utilizing a VM and the shortcomings with that software. Right now, i am leaning towred WHS utilizing FlexRaid to parity every disk. This is the closest i can come to a workable solution. I would LOVE if you UnRaid experts could provide more information and discussion on these. You say "single box". But what does that single box need to do? I think it would help us (and maybe you) to list the things the server HAS to do in order to not need a second box.
March 13, 200917 yr Fair enough. I should have listed that initially! By end of year i am going to have the server do the following in order of priority Media Server Backup of 3 other windows computers regularly Home automation Monitoring system Torrents the media server is needed now. hence I am attempting to choose a choice that allows me to perform the above on a single box. I know it CAN be done on the UnRaid server, I have seen a LOT of BubbaQ posts , but the self education it requires to get all those done on UnRaid from my starting point (knowing nothing) makes it a very daunting task. Its taken me a week just to understand my choices for a media server, and what those limitations may be of each choice. If ll I was doing was storing information, I would go UnRaid without a second thought. Its what it does and it does it superbly from what I have seen. Its the other parts that make things get really complicated. Especially considering the other choices on the market. Whats crazy to me is none of these choices have incorporated all the options since most compliment each other more than compete.
March 14, 200917 yr All those things can be done now, albeit by folks experiences in Linux, but that is about to change Tom has announced that Version 5.x of unRAID will have a web server and php, an open API, and this will open a world new era in development of add ins and applications to run on top of unRAID. Give us a bit of time, and in a few months, you will be able to add torrents, media server, automatic backups, and many other features to uRAID with just a couple of clicks.
March 14, 200917 yr Fair enough! That was actually my curent plan. I was going to buy hardwre that runs unraid. I could then set up the UnRaid server to start (since media is priority 1 and needed now). Then if i get to the other items on my list I can then transition to WHS or use the new UnRaid version. I think I will be posting my hardware list soon to get approval.
March 14, 200917 yr I think I will be posting my hardware list soon to get approval. Make sure to take a look at the Hardware Compatibility page to get a general overview of what hardware has been proven to work. It is still very much a work in progress but should give you a good starting point.
March 15, 200917 yr Yep, been referencing that back a lot. It is very cumbersome to use though. Being out of the chipset scene for a while, it requires me to go back and look up what each chipset supports, which processors that chipset supports, and then I have to check newegg to determine if its a current or old board. The sight REALLY needs to find a way to get that information across in that table, or a second table. Ideally you would want a noob like myself to be able to go to the sight and pick his equipment he wants without having to research each board individually. Basically though I am aiming at a Norco 4020 with a GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX with 8 sata ports. I then plan to expand with pci-e 8xSATA cards at some point. Processor powere is in question since I am not sure which server implementation I will end up with long term.
March 16, 200917 yr The sight REALLY needs to find a way to get that information across in that table, or a second table. If you are volunteering, I would really be happy to see more improvements such as that! We are always looking for more Wiki contributors!
March 16, 200917 yr The sight REALLY needs to find a way to get that information across in that table, or a second table. If you are volunteering, I would really be happy to see more improvements such as that! We are always looking for more Wiki contributors! Yes, we are always happy to take any help we can get. I know RobJ would love to see some more help, I have been trying to get up to speed with how all this wiki editing stuff works but some of it takes time that I just don't have. As it stands the Hardware Compatibility page does a pretty good job i think. If you did not notice i have added links to Newegg and the Manufacturers website for the vast majority of the boards. There is usually also an outline saying what socket the board is and what chipset it is.
March 17, 200917 yr I wasn't necessarily volunteering ...but with that said...I will at least think on the layout or approach that might assist. Then if I can learn wiki I can help. Also, please note I was not meaning to complain. It was supposed to be constructive feedback! UnRaid wouldn't rank near as high as it does without the community support. You guys are incredible, as you are what takes a core product and elevates it to a whole new level. That in turn allows the developers/owners to bring around a more robust product next go around. I did notice the links, they are a god send. Those links are how I researched each board to determine its availability (if its not on newegg i considered it out of date). I can not imagine what i would have done without the table. I love the evaluation column as well, I think that will be very usefull as it gets rounded out. I was supposed to order my stuff today but I ain't got it in me. Have to wait until tomorrow!
March 17, 200917 yr I wasn't necessarily volunteering ...but with that said...I will at least think on the layout or approach that might assist. Then if I can learn wiki I can help. Also, please note I was not meaning to complain. It was supposed to be constructive feedback! UnRaid wouldn't rank near as high as it does without the community support. You guys are incredible, as you are what takes a core product and elevates it to a whole new level. That in turn allows the developers/owners to bring around a more robust product next go around. I did notice the links, they are a god send. Those links are how I researched each board to determine its availability (if its not on newegg i considered it out of date). I can not imagine what i would have done without the table. I love the evaluation column as well, I think that will be very usefull as it gets rounded out. I was supposed to order my stuff today but I ain't got it in me. Have to wait until tomorrow! Yeah, we were mostly just poking fun, but we can always use any help. I am myself just getting my head around this wiki thing so i am new to all of this also. I have some ideas for revamping the Hardware Compatibility Page that involve making the columns sortable and some other changes. The sorting functions that I found that is supposed to be built into wiki does not seem to be working and I am trying to track down why.
March 17, 200917 yr You have to laugh at how thee things work... I want a server so start researching serves which lead to WHS, UnRaid, Linux, etc Which leads me to WHS or UnRaid Which leads to educating myself on which hardware does both Which leads to educating myself on processors and motherboards and memory and chipsets Which leads to learning how to wiki! I learn more on these hobbies in a week then I did in an engineering class in college in a semester!
March 17, 200917 yr You have to laugh at how thee things work... I want a server so start researching serves which lead to WHS, UnRaid, Linux, etc Which leads me to WHS or UnRaid Which leads to educating myself on which hardware does both Which leads to educating myself on processors and motherboards and memory and chipsets Which leads to learning how to wiki! I learn more on these hobbies in a week then I did in an engineering class in college in a semester! Its kinda like one of those mastercard commercials really!! I know exactly what you mean as it pretty much went the same way for me what I was getting ready to consolidate all of my stuff into one server. I knew I wanted one place to store it all but beyond that I had no idea on where to start besides researching. That process lead me to here and and I am very happy with the way it has turned out.
March 27, 200917 yr What applications do you want to run on the server? I run all of these right now on my unRAID box: torrents client newsgroup client web server home automation security system monitoring weather monitoring media serving Bubba, which apps are you using? I know which one you use for newgroups (I wish it had rss feeds), but what about the others?
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