For fun: what stops unRAID being a major contender

[NAS]

Just for fun with no malice intended and in the interest of healthy "off the wall" debate....

 

what stops unRAID being a household name?

 

OK this is a ridiculously large subject but I have some thoughts.

 

So i thought to myself lets do an experiment. I presented unRAID as a storage option to a couple of my smaller clients that have large storage needs (principally log data). Heres some quick notes on what i found:

 

1. They had both looked for a data dump type solution and had never heard of uNRAID. They had however heard of ZFS. perhaps this is weird or just a funtion of public exposure.

2. They loved the idea of unRAID

3. They were scared of linux. Even after telling them they didnt need to know about linux they had a quick look at the forum and website and concluded defintively otherwise in their minds.

4. They hated, and i mean show stopper hated, the web gui. Phrases like "incomplete", "development", "home made" were used

5. they asked about addons and i told them about things like the ls -R and UPS stuff. And this was telling... they both in a round about way said if unRAID is supposed to be easy these things needed to be bolt on via the gui they would not entertain scripts and hacks.

6. one of them asked if it had a WHS like windows backup solution

7. neither would consider taking unRAID onboard for a trial

 

Now im a huge unRAID fan as you all know but i found myself defending unRAID things like the web gui. Then i thought... no they are right its just not good enough to present as a marketable product to a large portion of the market. I choose my words carefully here... "marketing" is where other solutions win. Slick websites and user interfaces hide their lesser functionality.

 

Anyway I personally thought it was intersting and im glad i done it. Hopefully it will provide some insight and some debate.

 

I hope as well that uNRAID will take onboard some of the comments.

[PsyVision]

I'm not going to comment on the other points too much, except the web GUI part as this is something I've taken on myself because I agree, I'm not a huge fan.

 

I don't have amazing Linux knowledge/skills and so this forces me to get better, I am however good at developing/coding and so I started work last night on a new frontend.  I have a functioning PHP information screen (with similar information as say freenas) and a much nicer GUI - however this may not be to everyones taste and so I am working on the basis of skins being able to be used.

 

I am also attempting to work on a plugin based system for it whereby people that know the gritty details of linux (bubbaQ etc) can work on the underlying apps/services and people like me can code (in PHP) a frontend for configuring and managing the app/services.

 

I would post some screenshots but I am at work at the moment.

[NAS]

additions are very important and i applaud the work your doing.

 

however saying that i don't think they would accept it as it falls the "into hack yourself" catagory.

 

i am sure however loads of people here will love it.

 

the key point is to my eye at least the hurdles to take the "perception" of unRAID to the next level are really not that large

[bubbaQ]

Another way....

 

If you use ABCUPSD web interface, you will notice a link to get "all data" which is just a text dump of everything read from the UPS.

 

If unRAID had a URL to get a text dump of every piece of information in a defined format (one parameter per line, parameter=value), people could create all kinds of interfaces to display that data.... both on web servers and client applications.

 

For example, if I fetch http://tower/rawdata.htm, that would return just the raw text of all the info.  You can even throw pw protection on it, or put it on a different port.

 

One advantage is that you can control access to this separately from access to the main unRAID interface.... so any user can READ this data to see the unRAID server status, w/o them having access to the full unRAID interface.

[WeeboTech]

I guess this is one of those "need a thick skin" things Tom was mentioning.

 

I'm sure if there was a published protocol/api a new front end interface could be devised.

If I remember correctly there was mention of "skinning" and a control api in the future.

I do believe the front end needs a lil sprucing to bring unRAID to the next level.

 

 

As far as the ls -R thing.. that is a hack. It's a hack to deal with not wanting the drives to spin up.

In a business, this should not be an issue, the drive timeout should be sufficient to allow access to a drive throughout the day.

 

 

As far as the UPS part.. I think this is an addon. It could easily be packaged up and automated.

Having it as part of unRAID should "probably" be considered.

The real issue with this is, it requires another addon the powerdown package in order to handle things gracefully.

In turn, this does not actually communicate with emhttp so we have a disconnect making this a hack too.

The functionality should really be integrated.

 

unRAID can be a contender, it just needs a lil more refinement.

 

 

 

[bubbaQ]

Look at SMF (the forum software).

 

http://custom.simplemachines.org/

 

They have addins that are basically 2-click installs.  No scripts or hacks.  Just click.  Similar to how Firefox extensions are handled.

[ReneV]

I think we need to distinguish several different market segments for this discussion to make sense. The most relevant ones appear to be

 

1) enterprise platform

2) turnkey solution

3) home/enthusiast product

 

ZFS is part of 1); 2) is something you buy in a consumer-electronics store, e.g., a TeraStation; unRAID is, of course, an example of 3). WHS may be intended as a hybrid of 2) & 3), but I can't be sure. ZFS is also frequently used as 3), without many of the enterprise-specific complements. Eventhough the three are not mutually exclusive, it also clear that no single product can convincingly target all three at the same time.

 

A pertinent point is that `household' can be taken relative to either of the three, with different outcomes. It seems to me that the comments we've had so-far mostly pertain to 2), except for the mentioning of ZFS in the OP, which is somewhat egregious because, for many of the referenced issues, it's got less support than unRAID does. For example, it's command-line only.

 

More, given, e.g., the lengthy thread on AVS forum about unRAID, it could be said that unRAID is a `household' name for 3). And, I for one have no issues with the current status or direction of unRAID.

 

So, the question probably should be "what stops unRAID from being a big player in 1) and 2), or as a hybrid?" In the first two cases, the answer seems to involve having a big organisation behind the product. For hybrid, I would imagine that compromises would need to be made, which would have its downsides, too. Or, unRAID could be distributed as part of a complete Slackware environment, but that seems to be at odds with Lime Tech's business model.

 

A competing question could be "how can 3) become a `better' market segment?"

[PsyVision]

This is how I envisige a package platform could work:

 

Packages are created which contain all of the software required (slackware packages etc) and something like an install.sh script.  The package also comes with something like a PHP plugin component or class which has functions that handle install, configuration, upgrading, removing, starting, stopping and restarting.  These would perhaps have a different way of working depending on if it is a service (sqllite) whereby you need to add/remove users etc or an application such as rTorrent, which although it has a configuration page it has a link off to the 'proper' web frontend, phpMyAdmin would be a similar plugin to rTorrent. These functions can then all be accessed via a package manager frontend.  These packages could be bundled into zip files for easy hosting/distribution.

 

I see the majority of the work is in establishing a sensible common framework that can be expanded on in the future.

 

I gather QNap has something similar by using the QPKG software package platform.

[SSD]

PsyVision - Make sure you are familiar with the unmenu initiative.  A lot of what you are suggesting is already in place.

 

To address the larger question - I think the issues have little to do with the web interface.

 

The idea of setting up a server in the home is a big step for many people - and I think that many people are considering taking this step and evaluating options.  There are a number of needs that it can serve.  For example, the need to store data (possibly a lot of media files), the need to automate backups, the need to stream data, the need to allow accress from remote locations, and maybe most importantly - the need to allow individuals to personalize WHAT ELSE runs on the server.  unRAID satisfies one of those needs, but the rest are largely unmet with OOTB unRAID.  In order to do those things, you need ANOTHER server.  Or you need to be a Linux techie and/or depend on a few leaders in the user community that could, one day, just stop contributing.

 

This makes unRAID a niche product for a group of people whose need to store lots and lots of data - data they can't backup in any reasonable way - is the primary need.  They want as reliable a server as possible to maintain the integrity of that data - and prevent - to the greatest extent possible - complete loss.  I think unRAID leads the pack in this dimension - and anyone with these needs should definitely be looking closely at unRAID.

 

But does that represent a significant portion of the home server marketplace?  Unless it does, it won't ever be a major contender.

[Nyago123]

1. They had both looked for a data dump type solution and had never heard of uNRAID. They had however heard of ZFS. perhaps this is weird or just a funtion of public exposure.

 

The power of Sun's marketing, which probably says something in and of itself.  Sun can put out flashy PowerPoint and parade engineers with fancy titles at conferences to sell it.  What turned me off of ZFS is that when you do RAID on it, you're basically a better RAID-5.  It's a good file system but I personally wanted the flexibility of having parity with disks of different sizes.

 

3. They were scared of linux. Even after telling them they didnt need to know about linux they had a quick look at the forum and website and concluded defintively otherwise in their minds.

5. they asked about addons and i told them about things like the ls -R and UPS stuff. And this was telling... they both in a round about way said if unRAID is supposed to be easy these things needed to be bolt on via the gui they would not entertain scripts and hacks.

 

These two things are consistent.  I'm not exactly a Linux fan either, but I did have enough UNIX background (actually 5 years on SunOS when it was based on BSD back in the early 90's + early Solaris) to overcome my fears. 

 

At the same time, yeah, I'm a little annoyed at some of the "rough edges".  For example:

1. I started with 4.4 final and user shares were flaky (fixed in 4.4.2).

2. How many posts on these forums are discussions on "will this card work" or "will this mobo be OK"?

3. I appreciate that Lime Tech is good about responding to users, but development is still slower than I'd like (and probably slower than Lime Tech would like but I'm sure they're doing the best they can with their resources).  But since I have faith, I did recently buy an LSI SAS3081-R (per http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=3109.0).

 

4. They hated, and i mean show stopper hated, the web gui. Phrases like "incomplete", "development", "home made" were used

 

I think the GUI is important.  Initially it is a "warm fuzzy" marketing thing, but GUIs do tend to get more refined the more mature a product is.  Whether it's good or bad, people do judge on looks.  And even from gut I can knew from day one there'd be things that I'd eventually want to do that the GUI just wouldn't help me with, but I couldn't say what they were at the time.

 

As time has passed and I use my server more, I start to think:

1. How about an option in the GUI to hide/unshare the "disk1" "disk2" "disk3" etc shares when browsing from Windows Explorer?  How about an option to only show those shares and hide the user shares?  Let me guess... there's probably some fancy command line that will do this.

2. Where's the page for security so I can handle LDAP integration?  Oh, there isn't one... which probably means unRAID doesn't support it.  Now I gotta create new accounts and give separate logins to others.... so how do you get them to change their password without using telnet or PuTTY to connect to the server?  Oh well, you guys just PuTTY in... oops I see PuTTY connects and then the window disappears.  What's that about?  Oh, maybe I didn't set up user home directories. (You know, it's kinda like your "My Documents" but you actually have to "be there" when you login.)  Guess I'll have to do that.  Anyway, when you get in just run the "password" command... what? "-bash: password: command not found"?... oops, I meant "passwd".  Isn't that what I said?

3. Even in unmenu... how do I change the font for my syslog to a fixed width?  And I do like the use of colors... though the first thing I tried to was to click the word "Errors" hoping it would filter and show me just the error... oops... not a link.

 

6. one of them asked if it had a WHS like windows backup solution

 

Does it? 

 

7. neither would consider taking unRAID onboard for a trial

 

A trial is a lot more than just sticking in a USB key; you do have to allocate hardware and time.  Additionally, right away I knew I wanted to use user shares and that was something not available in the trial version.

 

One thing I've learned working at commercial software companies is that a lot of time customers just don't want the product first for no particular reason (maybe they just don't want to spend the money, or they don't see it as a necessity), and then they'll tell you what it's missing as the reason they don't buy it.  "Well, if it just did X, I'd buy it" they say.  Then you put X in and come back to them, and they say "well, if it just did Y, I'd buy it".  Reality: they just don't want it.

 

Anyway, I love unRAID, but that's because I knew what to expect going in and ultimately I wanted the product.  I basically agree with bjp999's last post... I see unRAID as a niche product for those who need to economically store a lot of data with some level of protection, no more.  If I needed automated backups or plug and play install, obviously I'd have to look elsewhere, but until it makes economic sense for Lime Technology to hire dozens of engineers to boost the product, they should not get into the habit of catering to the "well, if it just had DoD level encryption, I'd buy it" crowd.

 

[NAS]

all excellent points so far.

 

I should clarify one point in response though...

 

"A trial is a lot more than just sticking in a USB key; "

 

that's perfectly valid. let me be clearer. because of the unpolished look of the website (lacking the shine and marketing speel of a better presented product) and the  "home made" look of the GUI they were not interested in the product full stop despite it ticking almost all of their boxes. I know for a fact its perfect for them and would save them an absolute fortune in capital and man hours.

 

Thats a huge statement if you think about it.... it IS the product for them but because of the way its presented they are not prepared to look deeper than the skin. Human nature i suppose.

 

In my opinion the most important feature needed for unRAID is not a feature at all. Its a feature hold and a polish of the selling and user intefaces.

 

One thing i also forgot to say was they also thought the approach to tieing the license to the physical flash drive was "silly" and "confusing" (their words not mine I really tried to not influence thigs too much in this experiment). The IT guy of one company said (and i paraphrase) "regardless of how much it costs I would have to jump through alot of hoops to buy 2 of something with one destined to be an on the shelf backup. Its not the cost its the business continuity paperwork, its actually harder to buy a few cheap things than one large thing.

 

Really dont agree with alot of that but that makes sense I have purchased licenses so I can see past it. I honestly cant say I can think of a single customer of mine who would buy unRAID basically cause of these sentiments. Im sure I could sell it if i spent alot of time explaining things but theres no money in that so no ones going to.

 

[PsyVision]

PsyVision - Make sure you are familiar with the unmenu initiative.  A lot of what you are suggesting is already in place.

 

I have seen and indeed have unMenu running and I like what it has achieved and provides, however still I don't think it provides its functionality in a 'nice' package that is appealing and I think the ability to expand on this is somewhat blocked by the way that it has been implemented (awk) as far as my understanding goes.

 

I have put a mockup of a combination of a design and screenshot of the status reporter I have working here (WIP mind...): http://delimits.net/richard/unraid.jpg

 

I think something like this makes a solution such as unRAID much more tempting to people.  Obvisously there are people who are happy to work with an interface and just get the job done rather than worrying about fancy colours, graphics and animations. Each to their own

[NAS]

just to keep things more on topic rather than just another hack set...

 

no matter how good your gui looks (and your mock up looks excellent + I agree with your unMenu sentiment hence why i dont use it ... no offence meant)... unless there is a simple gui within the official product to add these bolt ons its still a hack... and hacks are what my tiny poll shows arent viable to improve the core sales/product.

 

OK so it might be easy to add but all these things need to be installable and upgradable via the default gui to be viable.

[Joe L.]

just to keep things more on topic rather than just another hack set...

 

no matter how good your gui looks (and your mock up looks excellent + I agree with your unMenu sentiment hence why i dont use it ... no offence meant)... unless there is a simple gui within the official product to add these bolt ons its still a hack... and hacks are what my tiny poll shows arent viable to improve the core sales/product.

 

OK so it might be easy to add but all these things need to be installable and upgradable via the default gui to be viable.

Excellent point...  I agree, these improvements should be made to the unRAID interface.  They have taken a back seat to core functionality... functionality that still does not exist.

 

The whole unmenu.awk web-interface was developed based on lots of ideas shared in a thread discussing ways to improve the unRAID user interface.   That discussion mentioned lots of the features implimented in unMENU.   unMENU's whole purpose in the grand scheme of things was to provide a way to visually explore many of the features envisioned.   It was intended as a quick prototyping environment, meant to be replaced by functions built into the core product.   

 

So far, that has not occurred, additionally, basic unraid functions that have been requested for years have not been added.   We still require e-mail alerts of failures, support of NTFS drives, drives outside of the array, UPS support, NFS support, better security, and better performance. 

 

A very long thread describing our ideas for improvements is here: http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=2110.0   It mostly concentrated on functions, and not on specific screen appearance... Your mock-up/design for a first page shows you have a good eye for graphic design.   I'm happy to see ideas building on the work done so far by a few of us in exploring ways to improve the user interface.  You might read the "Ideas for re-vamping" thread for a lot more ideas.

 

Tom has a "sticky" to track a laundry list of enhancement and improvements requested. 

The "Laundry List" of "improvements and requested features and changes" is maintained by Tom was last updated a bit over a year ago.  At that time it included:

 

- increase write performance (PARTIALLY DONE the cache drive helped some, but faster throughput to newer SATA drives helped a lot more)

- support multi-core processors & memory beyond 1GB  DONE

- get S3 powermode (standby) working

- add cpuspeed support

- support additional file systems such as XFS, NTFS

 

- automatic save/restore of Flash 'config' directory to a designated hard disk file

- UPS monitoring

- email alerts

 

- add option to let Parity Check be a true 'check', ie, don't write corrected data, just report occurrences of sync error(s)

- better 'clearing' of new disks

- support more than 1 array (parity group) in same system

- permit some disks to be outside the array. This will let you select devices which will not be included in the parity-protected array.

- concatenated parity drives

- hot spares

 

- implement shorter disk spin down delays and per-disk control DONE

- add function to execute 'file system check' on the data drives

- implement drive over-temp spin-down

 

- add interface to let user easily specify jumbo frame sizes

- add support for 2 (or more?) network interfaces

- NFS support   MOSTLY DONE, minimal web-config possible

- AFP support

- an ftp server (looking at vsftpd)   PARTIALLY DONE, server exists, but no web-based management interface

- http sever (perhaps apache!)

- UPnP

- Integrated wizd server

- Slimserver 6.5.0. support

- other misc servers, eg, "Galleon"

- hamachi vpn

- iSCSI

 

- get time from the internet (ntpd)   DONE

- Tally used/free space totals on Main page

- Provide some help info with Management Utility, eg, using alt tags, etc.

- Let user select display units (in bytes, KB, MB, GB, etc).

- provide internationalization support, e.g., in System Management Utility

- integrate css in management utility. This will permit "skinning" and customization   <----- This is basically  whatyou are looking for.

- make array management more "script friendly", e.g, fix 'powerdown' command

- implement theft-deterrence encryption system

 

In the past year, it appears as if 5 items were implemented in the stock unRAID from the Laundry list...   Many many more were implemented by users with scripting skills in a variety of languages from php, to shell, and yes, even "awk"   Your effort is just the most recent input to improve the unRAID interface. 

 

You will be faced with many of the same obstacles bubbaQ and I have had to deal with...  hopefully, it will change once unRAID has an API we can interface through.   Just don't hold your breath waiting...

Joe L.

[bubbaQ]

Shortly after getting unRAID, I realized what a waste it was to use it for a file server, and have to use other boxen for other tasks.  My first two goals were 1) to build a low-power always-on server, and 2) run unRAID on a full slackware distro and add all my other "always-on" applications to it.

 

I was hoping others would follow, which is why I did the meticulous instructions for running unRAID on full slackware... but there were few takers.

 

This was part of the reason I started BubbaRaid.... as a proof of concept that unRAID can serve as an application platform.  As with most projects like this, I use a RAD strategy, and then after the necessary milestones are reached and the project scope has become better defined, I go back and re-engineer it using all the new knowledge gained in the process. 

 

BubbaRaid, and it seems other expansion projects like unMenu are about halfway through the process.  We just need to keep plugging along in our development, and at some point the right hooks will be available in unRAID itself to progress to the re-engineering step. *Then* we'll see real solid progress and perhaps even our own addins site like AMO, with 1-click installation of addins for unRAID.

[Joe L.]

Shortly after getting unRAID, I realized what a waste it was to use it for a file server, and have to use other boxen for other tasks.  My first two goals were 1) to build a low-power always-on server, and 2) run unRAID on a full slackware distro and add all my other "always-on" applications to it.

 

I was hoping others would follow, which is why I did the meticulous instructions for running unRAID on full slackware... but there were few takers.

My goal is similar,my primary usage is as a media server, but my other plans for the full distribution server are tied more to home automation, visualization,  and security.  I plan on consolidating some of the other PCs on my LAN into the one server and take advantage of the dual-core CPU I purchased.  The end result is I should be able to power down a few older PCs I have running around here.

 

Shortly I'll be following those meticulous instructions you so kindly made available.

 

Joe L.

[Nyago123]

One thing i also forgot to say was they also thought the approach to tieing the license to the physical flash drive was "silly" and "confusing" (their words not mine I really tried to not influence thigs too much in this experiment). The IT guy of one company said (and i paraphrase) "regardless of how much it costs I would have to jump through alot of hoops to buy 2 of something with one destined to be an on the shelf backup. Its not the cost its the business continuity paperwork, its actually harder to buy a few cheap things than one large thing.

 

Yeah, I understand this... I have a software engineering background but today I work for a financial institution.  To get a checking+savings account opened with $25 in it for production testing purposes requires several days and various paperwork from our Risk Management department.  I could've gone to a branch office and opened one in about 30 minutes with my own money.  But that's not an inefficiency; that's how it has to be done.  Otherwise abuses of the system occur and/or regulators heap down hellfire on you.  If you read too many "rah rah" leadership books and pulled something like Howard Schultz of Starbucks telling employees "just go do it and don't worry about the system", you'd be fired from any real financial institution, and deservedly so.

 

Kafkian-esque bureaucracy aside, I agree tying licenses to the USB key is not a good idea, if only because my experiences with USB key life have not been real positive.  Yes, I know quality varies and you should buy a good one, but just the fact you have to do that is the issue itself.  USB keys don't come with labels on them that say "I'm good" and "I'm made of the cheapest, crappiest flash available". 

 

That said, to me at least, that reasoning reeks of my previous point... an excuse not to buy the software when you really just don't want the software.  If I wrote software that could actually predict the winning lottery numbers but required a license tied to a USB key, I'd bet they buy it. 

 

What does impress me though is that a trial is just about as close as possible to just sticking in a USB key.  The setup was far more minimal than, say, doing a Solaris install for ZFS.

 

I don't think anyone has ever tried to argue that unRAID is intended for, or even should try to capture, the enterprise market.  I'm just totally thrilled to have some "enterprise-like" reliability and features here in my bedroom.  I can hardly wait for dual parity drives, myself.   

 

[Nyago123]

I plan on consolidating some of the other PCs on my LAN into the one server and take advantage of the dual-core CPU I purchased.  The end result is I should be able to power down a few older PCs I have running around here.

 

Hi Joe,

 

Do you mean just moving functionality/apps from the older PCs onto one box, or are you considering virtualization of the older boxes on one physical machine?

 

[Joe L.]

I plan on consolidating some of the other PCs on my LAN into the one server and take advantage of the dual-core CPU I purchased.  The end result is I should be able to power down a few older PCs I have running around here.

 

Hi Joe,

 

Do you mean just moving functionality/apps from the older PCs onto one box, or are you considering virtualization of the older boxes on one physical machine?

 

I plan on doing both.  One old PC has a lot of apps my wife and I use.  We currently use VNC to connect to its desktop to run them.  It is a prime candidate for visualization (it runs win2k).  Other apps will run naively on Slackware.   

 

I'm currently going through the pains of setting up zoneminder on Slackware running on another old PC.  That application will be eventually be migrated to the full instance of slackware and another PC retired.  (That PC is tied to the video cameras monitoring various spots in and around my home.)

 

Lots of possibilities exist.

 

Joe L.

[NLS]

Great points mentioned here.

I am afraid Tom will once more be missing from this discussion. Or even his friend (colleague?) that was supposed to be the forum voice (hello?).

 

I am an IT professional and very long time user (started from 9 and being 35). I always had trouble to separate my "home" side with my "pro" side. Yes I do have different priorities when my "business-side" chooses a solution to use or implement on a customer, but in the end not SO much different. Having been in both sides of the "IT pro" coin too (in the side that makes decision and buys and the side that tries to implement and sell), I've always noticed both on myself and on my clients that a nice GUI *WILL* (which also means USER FRIENDLINESS) get votes and more easily hides things missing. Or even if noticed, people will think "well this is a nice product, seems to be very actively developed, what is missing is only a matter of time that it will be added" (where time is not counted in years).

 

I am afraid that although Tom tries to hide it, Limeware is still one man show (or possibly two). This by itself is no problem. We've seen one-man-show projects flourish like ivy. The problem is when someone starts to see some history which fortunately or unfortunately is pretty easy to be compiled from the forum posts: Too little in too much time.

 

This too, would be no blame if unRAID was not a full COMMERCIAL product.

 

If you know how old unRAID project is and see the GUI (and the OPTIONS in the GUI) for the first time, you immediately think "erm, am I missing something here?" (tell me this didn't happen to you )

 

Then you see how much was added over unRAID stock install by at least a couple of the linux-wiz we have here. Tremendous effort. And two major points to add to that: (1) they didn't get ANY help from unRAID's stock distro, as it is made not to easily support any extension, (2) Tom has never praised (yet), or even added something (yet) from those "add-ons" (which I am sure the original devs wouldn't mind).

 

(BubbaRAID alone changed the way I use unRAID machine 100% - even though I am still struggling to get the last version work )

 

At some point Tom mentioned unRAID turns to be his main job and source of income. After that not THAT much changed (or am I wrong). I think Tom's effort are probably more in selling hardware with his product preinstalled. This is just my guess from what I see. You can't fight the major NAS companies, you just can't (yet). I would focus on the product itself. This after all is pure 100% income.

 

So since once more I am getting into Tom's shoes (without him wanting me to hehehe), I'll take it a bit further down the road:

 

1- Have someone really have some much more active presence in the forum. If this was a stupid one-post-a-day forum nobody would care. Seems the forum is your major community connection, the major source of unRAID non-beta...beta testing, error reporting source AND advertising, it would only make sense that "someone from LimeTech" is always around. Saying hello and then dissapearing (ahem ahem) just doesn't cut it.

 

2- Rebuild the damn-GUI. Can't stress this more. I've seen total amateur attempts look way better. That the weight is thrown on actual development excuse doesn't work when someone sees the laundry list with looong rotting laundry items. It's not that we have galloping development so "ok GUI comes after".

 

3- Since you made it clear that you don't want to (read: can't) support too much new generic functionality in unRAID (because yes it would generate a much bigger debugging load), at least help the active devs you have as fans and supporters of the project, develop it. I.E. provide for the plug-in connectivity (you have even VERY clear proposals on how to do this) that would allow them. Tell them a "well done" publicly (I doubt it has happened privately either) to encourage them. After all it is a cheap marketing move after all. You give a little boost to people that WITHOUT getting paid add to a product that YOU get paid.

 

4- Even though you (semi-understandably) don't want to add too much that would add a geometrically larger debugging phase, I would REALLY REALLY add some of the looooong standing "free to add" features people have requested. Stupidly easy to implement, huge impact. E-Mail notification comes to mind. I mean come on... what do we have to do? Beg?

 

5- Since your customers are your 99% base of advertisement, really points 1 to 4 should be major to you. We made a good or bad decision (I say good) to buy your product and that's it. Money taken, system works, end of story. If we are to say to our friends/clients/colleagues to do it, is a different ball game; As is if they are going to like it when they see it in our system (as very nicely the OP pointed).

 

6- Stress on software and less on hardware. Hardware adds too much troubleshooting with very little return. Adds complexities like DOA, warranties, spare parts, shipping etc.

 

7- (minor but since it bothered me for a while why not mention it) Start presenting LimeTech if there is a real LimeTech that is not just Tom. Speaking in plural just doesn't cut it (if you ask me it is even funny). Either say "its me and my wife and a friend helps" (for example and why not after all?) or really present who is really involved in the company. You are not IBM or HP, you are LimeTech, people really want to have faces in their minds and if LimeTech is 3 or 5 people, it's only good for us and for them to have them somewhere in the web page. Attaches clients to LimeTech more.

 

Even if I sounded harsh and I apologize (I am usually like that), I mention all these things with great sympathy to the product and Tom's attempt in general (I started as a freelancer too a few years ago after years of being an employee). I am using unRAID every day (with the help of the boost Bubba gave to it btw - and I am sure unMENU will help too when I add it), but that doesn't mean that whatever was GREAT in 2005 or 2003, is as great in 2009 and will be as great in 2010. Remember this.

 

I know it is uncommon for you to take active part in such threads (people would love it though), but I am sure you are reading all this.

 

[NAS]

NLS very well thought out post you obviously feel strongly about these points. I agree with the majority of your sentiment and have went on the record in the past with these comments.

 

Now since I started this post Im going to pretend to be boss for a second (hehe).

 

Please no one flame this thread. Agree or disagree but keep it Spock like please

 

NLS comments are cutting but they are not a flame so lets make sure we keep it that way unlike EVERY other time something like this has been said.

 

Appreciated.

 

 

p.s. I just upgraded every box in my network except for the firewalls and uNRAID to vmware. this kinda fits with some other people sentiment in previous posts

[prostuff1]

As you pointed out in your first post NAS with your comment about the GUI, I think that is one of the main deterrents from unRAID becoming a "major contender."

 

Personally I don't really have that big a problem with the web interface.  Now that being said, if you look at the work that has been done with things like unMenu and the extensions that have been added to it, you start to wonder why the unRAID main page page does not have some of these options/views.

 

I really wanted to make a nice long concise post about this but then came to the conclusion that everything i wanted to say had already been said.

[NAS]

Lets take this in a slightly new direction then. One random competitor. You cant compare feature for freature as uNRAID parity is unique but from a service pint of view:

 

NASLite-M2

http://www.serverelements.com/naslite-M2.php

UPNP, DAAP, SMB/CIFS, NFS, AFP, FTP, HTTP and RSYNC exported file systems

$39

 

 

Single unRAID Server Pro Registration key

$119

 

naslite has an easy to use online registration portal that doesnt tie you to one flash drive

 

Now dispassionately put yourself in the place of a new user and compare thier website and more importantly the control GUI.

 

Whole different league.

 

However....

 

uNRAID parity is a HUGE deal and makes it a class winner but its not presented on the website properly. You need to read and ponder and let it sink in to see it.

 

 

The more I think about this the more it annoys me. OK so it shouldn't annoy me but i feel kinda invested in unRAID as a community. How dare Naslite win because of something so trivial as cosmetics... especially since theres a team of people here just bwaiting to do the work for free. That last statement is bordering on the insane.

[WeeboTech]

Lets take this in a slightly new direction then. One random competitor. You cant compare feature for freature as uNRAID parity is unique but from a service pint of view:

 

NASLite-M2

http://www.serverelements.com/naslite-M2.php

UPNP, DAAP, SMB/CIFS, NFS, AFP, FTP, HTTP and RSYNC exported file systems

$39

 

 

Single unRAID Server Pro Registration key

$119

 

not a totally fair comparison.

unRAID has RSYNC and FTP.

 

 

Key issue

Naslite-M2

* Dependable hardware RAID card support (Software raid is not supported, this includes software assisted raid cards)

 

 

Now dispassionately put yourself in the place of a new user and compare thier website and more importantly the control GUI.

Whole different league.

 

the unRAID gui and feature list is immature, but it's useful enough to have a decent base of users and developers to assist the users.

 

 

uNRAID parity is a HUGE deal and makes it a class winner but its not presented on the website properly. You need to read and ponder and let it sink in to see it.

 

Class winner, I would probably say so,  for software raid of environments not requiring high speed throughput.

Could it use better presentation, sure.

 

 

Perhaps there just needs to be additional support from limetech or inclusion of the community more.

 

 

Instead of posting the have nots, Perhaps posting about the needs and wants will get us further to an environment capable of proper presentation.

I think Bubba's BubbaRAID and Joe's unMENU really showed real possibility of the community to come together.

 

So what is it that is really wanted?

Is it an more open API, prettier presentation, Is it expectations from the developer. 

What type of synergies have been suggested, here or behind the scene, to make this a better environment for all involved?

 

 

Just some food for thought.

 

[NAS]

great post. agree completely about the RAID part... its the reason i personally purchased unRAID (i also hold NASLITE licenses i no longer use.)

 

I would like to contest the use of the word "immature" though (i am sure we actually agree but this is all about healthy debate The unRAID GUI is not "immature" it is intentionally not being developed. Those intentions are clear and may be due to lack of interest or a clear vision of where its going that we dont know. It doesn't really matter what the reasons are... it is what it is.

 

I think expectations are too high for what unRAID can deliver. Based on guess work there is not enough Limetech manhours to do what could be done. Thats not a bad thing but as pointed out in earlier posts lets no pretend about it.

 

However one huge selling point of unRAID is us the community. Almost every week some new user comments on it. I would say that there should be a clear, continuing discourse here on the forum between the community and the developer to enable the community to enhance unRAID. All these tricks and hacks to accommodate lack of core changes are artificially causing the community to spend more effort when they could be doing so much more for the product.

 

So what im saying, and this is not the first time ive said it, is there needs to be a developer <> community development dialogue. It doesn't have to be intense but it should exist and continue even if its at a snails pace.

 

Does that make sense?