Rajahal Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I started a new section of the wiki to help new users choose hardware, I'm calling it Recommended Builds. I finished the 'Budget Box' (12 drive server), and now I would like to turn my attention to a 20 drive beast based on the Norco 4220 (unless anyone has any better suggestions). My main hangup is the motherboard. I know basically any mobo will work, but I want one that will support 20 drives with minimal expansion cards. So basically I'm looking for a board with 4+ onboard SATA ports and with 2+ PCIe ports that will both take Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8's. Once I've got a good mobo to work with, I can take it from there. Link to comment
ohlwiler Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 SuperMicro C2SEA. For a big server, I'd want stability over cost, I think there is a benefit to trying to closely follow the reference design. The C2SEA is the closest thing to the discontinued C2SEE. I have one running a single AOC-SASLP-MV8. I have not heard of someone running two. Tom said once that he'd give it a try, but I have heard nothing more. Great idea for the wiki. It is daunting to look at the motherboard list. It would also be very helpful to have a list of recommended changes to the bios and motherboard jumpers. If someone bought that group of parts and set the bios as recommended it would be plug and play. Link to comment
Rajahal Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 Excellent, thank you. I definitely agree with the 'reliability over cost' approach. My only concern with that motherboard is if it will support the full 20 drives. 6 onboard slots plus 8 from the SAS card is only 14... Link to comment
Rajahal Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 I instead chose the SUPERMICRO MBD-X7SBE, at WeeboTech's suggestion in another thread. This board offers tons on expandability options (and will should support two of the AOC-SASLP-MV8s). The big downside is that it costs nearly double what the C2SEA does. I would very much appreciate someone double checking my '20 Drive Beast' build: 20 Drive Beast Am I missing anything? Link to comment
WeeboTech Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Is the CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W enough for 20 drives? I see. "Output +3.3V@20A,+5V@20A,+12V@33A,[email protected],[email protected]" Expansion Cards: Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 -- Separate SAS to SATA breakout cables are not required, as they come with the case. The case documentation says "Five internal SFF-8087 Mini SAS connectors support up to twenty 3.5" SATA (I or II) or SAS hard drives" The board documentaion says "Two mini SAS connectors can connect to 8 internal SAS/SATA drives with iPass cables" (SFF-8087 connector) So which cables come with the case, Mini SAS to Mini SAS or Mini-SAS to SATA? FWIW, the board itself is capable of much more then 20 drives. 22 with the 2 cards and onboard ports combined. Yet even more with the PCI-X slots for 8 port cards too!!! Also mention (and link to) the IPMI KVM over IP option. I believe that could be one of the factors in deciding to spend the extra funds on this board. Link to comment
Joe L. Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Is the CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W enough for 20 drives? I see. "Output +3.3V@20A,+5V@20A,+12V@33A,[email protected],[email protected]" With an estimated peak starting current of roughly 2 Amps per disk on the 12 Volt supply, I'd say no. Look for something with a single 12 Volt rail rating of 45+ Amps, or more if your motherboard is power hungry itself, and you plan on running many fans. Link to comment
ohlwiler Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I would pick a Wolfdale processor such as E3X00 or E5X00. They will most likely consume less power since they are 45nm parts and have more processing power for add-ons. If you are going for stability I would recommend picking ECC memory off of SuperMicro's recommended list. http://www.supermicro.com/support/resources/memory/display.cfm?sz=1.0&mspd=0.8&mtyp=18&id=E061F27C191E2FAF3DFB9D59B1927DDF The cost is very reasonable. I found a 1G stick for $30 shipped at Newegg. I recommend a Seasonic X650 power supply. It has a 54 A. 12 V. rail, and is 80 Plus Gold certified. The main thing the X7SBE brings to the table is the PCI-X, IPMI and support for ECC memory. Why pick the board if you don't exploit those features? Link to comment
Rajahal Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Expansion Cards: Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 -- Separate SAS to SATA breakout cables are not required, as they come with the case. The case documentation says "Five internal SFF-8087 Mini SAS connectors support up to twenty 3.5" SATA (I or II) or SAS hard drives" The board documentaion says "Two mini SAS connectors can connect to 8 internal SAS/SATA drives with iPass cables" (SFF-8087 connector) So which cables come with the case, Mini SAS to Mini SAS or Mini-SAS to SATA? I honestly don't know the answer to that. The whole SAS thing is pretty new to me, and I haven't dealt with it personally. Hopefully someone else can answer this question, since it is clearly pretty crucial to this build. FWIW, the board itself is capable of much more then 20 drives. 22 with the 2 cards and onboard ports combined. Yet even more with the PCI-X slots for 8 port cards too!!! I'm aware of that, but I purposefully didn't mention it because the case maxes out at 20 drives. I suppose more drives could be added through an eSATA external enclosure, but I would rather keep the 'recommended builds' section as simple and 'noob friendly' as possible. Also mention (and link to) the IPMI KVM over IP option. I believe that could be one of the factors in deciding to spend the extra funds on this board. Very good point, I'll add that. Is the CORSAIR CMPSU-450VX 450W enough for 20 drives? I see. "Output +3.3V@20A,+5V@20A,+12V@33A,[email protected],[email protected]" With an estimated peak starting current of roughly 2 Amps per disk on the 12 Volt supply, I'd say no. Look for something with a single 12 Volt rail rating of 45+ Amps, or more if your motherboard is power hungry itself, and you plan on running many fans. Thanks for catching that. I've been using this 'extreme' PSU calculator to assess the power needs of these builds...is there something else I should use instead? The wattage ratings are easy, but I'm kind of lost when it comes to Amps per rail, etc. What's the difference between the +12V and the -12V ratings? I would pick a Wolfdale processor such as E3X00 or E5X00. They will most likely consume less power since they are 45nm parts and have more processing power for add-ons. If you are going for stability I would recommend picking ECC memory off of SuperMicro's recommended list. http://www.supermicro.com/support/resources/memory/display.cfm?sz=1.0&mspd=0.8&mtyp=18&id=E061F27C191E2FAF3DFB9D59B1927DDF I recommend a Seasonic X650 power supply. It has a 54 A. 12 V. rail, and is 80 Plus Gold certified. Thanks, I'll look into these. The main thing the X7SBE brings to the table is the PCI-X, IPMI and support for ECC memory. Why pick the board if you don't exploit those features? I purposely avoided using the board's PCI-X capabilities because the PCIe SAS card should be faster. I've gotten the impression from other threads that there's no reason to use PCI-X anymore, since 8 port PCIe cards are available (and faster). Link to comment
Rajahal Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 I would pick a Wolfdale processor such as E3X00 or E5X00. They will most likely consume less power since they are 45nm parts and have more processing power for add-ons. I can't find these processors at Newegg or via Google Shopping. Can you post a link to them? All the other LGA 775 Wolfdale processors at Newegg are 65 W, which just seems like a waste of power to me. As far as extra power for add-ons, I think the 'recommended builds' should be geared towards stock unRAID usage. If a user wants more power for add-ons he or she can always upgrade certain parts before purchasing the system. If you are going for stability I would recommend picking ECC memory off of SuperMicro's recommended list. http://www.supermicro.com/support/resources/memory/display.cfm?sz=1.0&mspd=0.8&mtyp=18&id=E061F27C191E2FAF3DFB9D59B1927DDF Replaced the RAM with this (the only one I could find at Newegg), thanks for the suggestion. I recommend a Seasonic X650 power supply. It has a 54 A. 12 V. rail, and is 80 Plus Gold certified. Seems like an overly expensive PSU. What's the benefit over a unit like the Corsair CMPSU-650TX 650W? The Corsair's output specs are: +3.3V@24A,+5V@30A,+12V@52A,[email protected],[email protected] (so 52A on the +12 V rail, enough for the 20 drive system) I understand that the Seasonic is 80 Plus Gold certified (87% efficient) whereas the Corsair is 80 Plus certified (80% efficient). Do you think the 7% difference is worth the $60 difference (actually $80 after MIR)? I'm neglecting to factor in the modular design of the Seasonic, since I see that as purely a luxury upgrade. Link to comment
ilovejedd Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 I would pick a Wolfdale processor such as E3X00 or E5X00. They will most likely consume less power since they are 45nm parts and have more processing power for add-ons. I can't find these processors at Newegg or via Google Shopping. Can you post a link to them? All the other LGA 775 Wolfdale processors at Newegg are 65 W, which just seems like a waste of power to me. As far as extra power for add-ons, I think the 'recommended builds' should be geared towards stock unRAID usage. If a user wants more power for add-ons he or she can always upgrade certain parts before purchasing the system. The TDP rating is meant for coolers and is not how much power the processor consumes. Well, it's a bit more complicated than that but suffice to say processors are unlikely to consume that much power during normal operation. Both the Celeron E3x00 and Pentium E5x00 are very frugal. I replaced a Celeron 430 on my HTPC with a Pentium E5200 Wolfdale and idle power consumption actually went down a few watts. Dunno why you don't see them on Newegg. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010340343%2050001157&name=Intel By the way, for the eXtreme Power Calculator, just use the "High rpm SATA" for the drives. Your problem here isn't the power consumption during actual operation but the start-up current necessary to spin-up the drives. Even parity check with all drives spinning wouldn't use as much power as boot. Link to comment
ohlwiler Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Newegg is not the cheapest place to buy the Seasonic X650 power supply. Besides being efficient it is also very stable and has excellent specs all the way around. The Corsair is also a very good power supply. Seasonic makes many of Corsair's power supplies, according to reviews they also made the one you linked. I think that it would be a fine choice, the rebate is icing on the cake. Link to comment
Rajahal Posted March 30, 2010 Author Share Posted March 30, 2010 The TDP rating is meant for coolers and is not how much power the processor consumes. Well, it's a bit more complicated than that but suffice to say processors are unlikely to consume that much power during normal operation. Both the Celeron E3x00 and Pentium E5x00 are very frugal. I replaced a Celeron 430 on my HTPC with a Pentium E5200 Wolfdale and idle power consumption actually went down a few watts. Interesting, I didn't know that about the power rating. So then how do you evaluate the power usage of a certain CPU? Dunno why you don't see them on Newegg. http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010340343%2050001157&name=Intel Haha, I thought the 'x' was part of the model number, I didn't realize that you meant 'insert any number here'. I'm a bit slow today. By the way, for the eXtreme Power Calculator, just use the "High rpm SATA" for the drives. Your problem here isn't the power consumption during actual operation but the start-up current necessary to spin-up the drives. Even parity check with all drives spinning wouldn't use as much power as boot. Good tip, thank you. I've been working under the assumption that everyone would be using green drives, but I suppose that may be a false assumption. Also, as you said, even enough green drives spun up simultaneously could be too much for a lesser PSU. Link to comment
ilovejedd Posted March 30, 2010 Share Posted March 30, 2010 Interesting, I didn't know that about the power rating. So then how do you evaluate the power usage of a certain CPU? Unfortunately, there's none short of measuring the actual power consumption (either whole system via Kill-A-Watt, power consumption on the 12V rail using testing equipment, etc). A lot of review sites now include some sort of power consumption test so that's another source of info. Some generalizations: 45nm use less power than 65nm processors lower cache = lower power consumption lower FSB = lower power consumption Again, those are generalizations and apply only to processors with the same microarchitecture. Actual power consumption will probably differ slightly from sample to sample in much the same way overclockability does. Link to comment
NAS Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Something i woud take into account with this is availability. Supermicro stuff is just NOT available in the EU or if it is then its from 1-2 shops max you have never heard about in another language and when you place the order they email you that they cant supply. Sad but true. Link to comment
Chris Pollard Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Something i woud take into account with this is availability. Supermicro stuff is just NOT available in the EU or if it is then its from 1-2 shops max you have never heard about in another language and when you place the order they email you that they cant supply. Sad but true. Yup, they seem to have either signed deals with spectacularly incompetent suppliers or they have decided to just flat out not sell some of their products in the EU. Most annoying. Link to comment
WeeboTech Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 Something i woud take into account with this is availability. Supermicro stuff is just NOT available in the EU or if it is then its from 1-2 shops max you have never heard about in another language and when you place the order they email you that they cant supply. Sad but true. Tyan has an equally equivalent board. We have not seen anyone try it yet. I almost bough the tyan because it had a P-ATA port. http://lime-technology.com/forum/index.php?topic=4001.msg35241#msg35241 Link to comment
terrastrife Posted March 31, 2010 Share Posted March 31, 2010 could always just buy intel if you cant find any of the other 'server' orientated brands. Link to comment
Rajahal Posted April 1, 2010 Author Share Posted April 1, 2010 I am addressing the availability issue by creating separate sections of the 'recommended builds' wiki page for each part of the world (US/Canada, Europe, and Australia seem to be the big three on these forums). I'm creating the US/Canada builds, since that's where I live. I'll leave it to others to recommend builds for other parts of the world. unraided is already working on a parts list for the Budget Box in Australia. If any of you Europeans would like to do the same, I would appreciate it. Link to comment
NAS Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 Let me throw this into the mix for consideration. Supermicro mATX board with 6 sata approx 190Euro approx Asus mATX board with 6 sata approx + Semperon approx 80 Euro The Supermicro is a server board and with that comes reliability, predictability etc etc However with the exception of KVM over IP the Asus will perform just as well. 110Euro saved could be used to completely renew the hardware in a couple of years time and still have money to spare. You could even buy two of them and have spares ready to install on the event of a failure and be cheaper than buying the server board version. I am not saying I am right just playing Devils advocate since people will use this guide to spend their hard earned cash we should consider all the options. Link to comment
WeeboTech Posted April 1, 2010 Share Posted April 1, 2010 The Supermicro is a server board and with that comes reliability, predictability etc etc However with the exception of KVM over IP the Asus will perform just as well. If you are building a 20 drive server, then use server class components. I've had tyan & supermicro server boards. These boards served very well for high end workstation and servers. Each had huge amounts of uptime, the last supermicro board was up over 500 days without a reboot or hardware issue. The only reason I took it out of service was one of the scsi drives failed and I was too lazy to replace it. In contrast, My Asus boards have been stellar performers for desktop & gaming rigs. The long term stability just has not been there. I leave my machines on 24x7 and the asus boards just didn't last that long in this usage pattern. I'm just saying.. if you are building a high end server, then use server class components or you will be spending the money saved as time in continued maintenance. Link to comment
Rajahal Posted April 28, 2010 Author Share Posted April 28, 2010 I just received my Norco 4220 today, so I'm going to attempt a version of this 20 drive build and put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. The only significant deviation from the current recommended build will be the motherboard. I'll be using the following components: CPU: Celeron 430 - ordered RAM: Kingston 2 GB - already own Mobo: ASUS P5BV-M LGA 775 Intel 3200 Micro ATX Intel Xeon Server Motherboard - ordered, free gift with case Case: Norco 4220 - arrived PSU: Corsair 450W - already own Cables: SFF8087OCR - ordered HDDs: A mixture of new and old, some green, some 7200 rpm - one ordered, the rest I already own I'll start out with just 3 drives and unRAID basic on a spare flash drive (I'm actually going to try out a MicroSD card first). Once I verify that is all working and seems reliable, then I'll transfer over more drives and my unRAID Pro licensed flash drive. I'll then buy: Controllers: Supermicro AOC-SASLP-MV8 (2 of them) Cables: SFF-8087 to SFF-8087 SAS Cables (4 of them) HDDs: Enough to max out the 20 drive bays? Maybe, if I can afford it. I've already put a lot of money into this pet project. Yesterday I was gchatting with a friend about my purchase of the 4220, even though I really don't need it. He asked why I had done it. I hummed and hawed a bit, and then he answered the question for me: So are you basically the server version of the mountain climber who when asked why he climbs mountains says "because it's there". I think that is pretty accurate. WeeboTech and others are also calling it 'UCD' (unRAID compulsive disorder). Edit: Oh, I also edited the 20 Drive Beast Recommended Build to reflect my first-hand knowledge that the Norco 4220 ships with no SAS cables whatsoever! Link to comment
Msan Posted April 28, 2010 Share Posted April 28, 2010 I just finished building my new unraid box (see sig) and am quite happy so far.. Next step is changing the fanboard on the 4220 to 3 140mm fans (I already changed the stock screamers to quieter ones, but my drive temps are not where I would like them to be.. (during parity calc one went even up to 44c) For other 4220 owners.. I've seen quite a few posts where people are either stuffing foam or taping up the unused drive trays.. Thats actually not needed, as you can slide the metal part on the front of the tray and close the vents... And you only need to connect one of the power connectors per backplate (other is for redundant power) I'll post some more after I'm done modding Link to comment
WeeboTech Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 UCD... Yes, I'll have to admit to that. But I also suffer from consoliditus. Trying to condense all spinning media onto unRAID and rippitus, building small ITX ripper machines to sit on top of the unRAID machine. hahahaha. I don't want to kill my laptop (killed one laptop drive already) and after a while I get tired of recompiling the unRAID kernel. as I depend more and more on unRAID. When it's down for maintenance, I feel it. I'm going to bother Tom to add cdrom support into the kernel soon. Then I'll get vmware to do the job, until then it's UCD, consoliditus and rippitus. Link to comment
ilovejedd Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 UCD... Yes, I'll have to admit to that. But I also suffer from consoliditus. Trying to condense all spinning media onto unRAID and rippitus, building small ITX ripper machines to sit on top of the unRAID machine. hahahaha. I don't want to kill my laptop (killed one laptop drive already) and after a while I get tired of recompiling the unRAID kernel. as I depend more and more on unRAID. When it's down for maintenance, I feel it. I'm going to bother Tom to add cdrom support into the kernel soon. Then I'll get vmware to do the job, until then it's UCD, consoliditus and rippitus. I think I may be suffering for the same symptoms... Except, the unRAID server hasn't seen maintenance in over a year and just get the monthly (sometimes twice monthly) parity check. I was actually considering building a full ATX ripping machine (using the Centurion 590), but for now, the somewhat ghetto-esque combination of Mini-ITX nettop (almost Wii-size) + Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on drives work for me. Link to comment
WeeboTech Posted April 29, 2010 Share Posted April 29, 2010 Ghetto'esqe. That's pretty funny. Actually I have a few of these mini ITX/micro machines, http://www.commell.com.tw/product/IPC/CMB-673%28NS%29.HTM http://www.kingyoung.com.tw/.%5Cs620.htm But I've been dying to build this one out to sit on top of my CM590 instead. 1 SSD flash, 2 3.5's in a RAID0/RAID1 matrix safe raid combo. http://www.e-itx.com/gfi-g45.html EDIT: Let me add, the reason I want/need a separate ripper. I do allot of DVD ripping with anydvd and also EAC. Although I have a vmware machine that can do this, i want to turn that dual xeon off and go with a smaller less power hungry machine. I cannot do it with vmware under unRAID. The whole audio digital extraction with vmware environments requires the use of SCSI. I do have SCSI on my current ripper. SCSI DVD reader, SCSI CD-RW. and EAC works fine with that. I would constantly be recompiling the unRAID kernel on every distro to add in my SCSI card and CDROM support, and frankly, that gets tiresome after a while.\ So I'm back to considering a special purpose itx machine just for rips. Link to comment
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