CA Notification Discussion


nuhll

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Just to give some feedback, i think that alert is not OK.

 

I was waking up in the middle of the night because i have a alarm on unraid emails. While corona is a bad thing, showing a "alert" on everyones server, i think, is not okay.

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Just want to say, I don't appreciate the covid-19 banner being injected. I understand the intentions may be good, but are they really? It's shady that there's zero mention of the banner in the release notes. What else is being injected into the plug-in that isn't in the release notes? Gonna have to reconsider further use of this plug-in since it can't be trusted.

Edited by kpereira
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12 minutes ago, kpereira said:

Just want to say, I don't appreciate the covid-19 banner being injected. I understand the intentions may be good, but are they really? It's shady that there's zero mention of the banner in the release notes. What else is being injected into the plug-in that isn't in the release notes? Gonna have to reconsider further use of this plug-in since it can't be trusted.


Looks like a rather bold mention to me. Not sure how anyone could miss it?

 

On 3/14/2020 at 12:04 PM, Squid said:

Today's update brings a couple of minor fixes.

 

One notable addition is that CA now includes a notification system.  Up until now, there was no real way for myself to inform unRaid users of any "must-see" notifications outside of Fix Common Problems.  However FCP has a few flaws:

  1. It's installed user base is no where near the size of CA's installed base
  2. Any new tests would require an update to FCP itself

 

CA's notifications are reserved exclusively for the "You Must See This", and any PSA's.  Currently, there are only a few notices:

 

  1. mccloud/ps3netsrv installed - known malware contained within it
  2. Older versions of disk.location installed - known to cause very excessive writes to the flash drive
  3. unRaid versions of 6.6 -> 6.8.0 and sysdream mitigation plugin not installed
  4. A PSA detailed below.

 

Notifications are downloaded at a random time following a reboot of your server, and once per week after that.  You will be notified via an email / push depending upon your notification settings, and also via a banner across the top of your GUI.   The system is set up that if you do have your server sleeping (S3 plugin) at the time the week is up, it will get downloaded automatically when the server awakens (random time of the hour).

 

If you choose to ignore the warning, you can permanently dismiss the warning by clicking the "x" on the banner.  A more info link will display a popup that contains more information regarding the warnings.

 

This system will allow CA to warn you if (as an example) you have an application installed that contains known malware.  Or if @limetech should (very unlikely) have to pull your installed version of unRaid, etc.

 

You can also choose to completely opt-out of this system via a setting in Apps - Settings.

 

Because of current events, there is a PSA that will also appear linking to 

that will appear if you do not have BOINC or Folding @ Home installed on your server.  I fully and completely understand if you choose to not install either of those applications.  Just dismiss the banner and CA will never bother you again about it.

 

The OP for this thread has been updated to include the following PSA

 

 

DUE TO CURRENT GLOBAL EVENTS, CA WILL PUT UP A BANNER ADVISING THAT IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE YOUR SERVER JOIN THE FIGHT AGAINST COVID-19 BY INSTALLING EITHER BOINC OR FOLDING@HOME.  IF YOU CHOOSE NOT TO DO THIS, THEN SIMPLY DISMISS THE BANNER (CLICK THE X) AND YOU WILL NOT BE BOTHERED AGAIN.

 

ADDITIONALLY FOR THE TIME BEING, BOTH THE BOINC AND FOLDING@HOME APPLICATIONS WILL ALWAYS APPEAR AT THE TOP OF THE LIST IN THE NEW APPS SECTION TO INCREASE THEIR EXPOSURE.

 

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3 minutes ago, wgstarks said:


Looks like a rather bold mention to me. Not sure how anyone could miss it?

 

 

If you took the time to read my post, you'd notice that I specifically said the release notes. There's a big difference between release notes that show up in the server interface and a post on the support forum that may or may not be seen.

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1 hour ago, kpereira said:

that there's zero mention of the banner in the release notes.

Because the banner itself actually has nothing to do with CA at all.  CA introduced a mechanism to alert users for varying things.  And, as the data file that mechanism utilizes changes, I will not be announcing each and every new notification.  Because this was a new feature, the 4 possible notifications at the time were itemized within the thread.

 

CA will only ever alert you for the "You must see this" type of thing based upon your installed environment.  The ability to opt out is there, and the ability to dismiss any given notification is also there.  The PSA was a last minute addition to that data file, and not everyone will ever see it, as it is tailored to user's system.  Its fundamentally no different than the multitude of unsolicited emails that's been filling my inbox with how such and such company I haven't dealt with in years in now sanitizing their gas pumps daily (lol).

 

This mechanism is long over due within unRaid and IMHO is an outright requirement for an OS.  The PSA, sure it's a grey area, but I'm not offering any apologies for it.  And I would expect that the vast majority of computer users across the spectrum do not even know that the applications even exist.

1 hour ago, kpereira said:

since it can't be trusted.

Really.  That's completely up to you, but if you do choose to uninstall CA because it can't be trusted, then I would also recommend you uninstall every other piece of software (docker apps and plugins) from your server.  CA is 100% wide open on everything it does behind the scenes to protect you (and by "protect" I am definitely NOT referring to the PSA), along with it's code being completely view-able in a public repository unlike many applications available on any given platform.

 

I will however let you know that any possible future notifications are not going to be publicized within a change log, because they are all already listed here in the forums.  The whole point of this mechanism was so that the notifications can be dispersed without an update being required to any given plugin or the OS. 

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33 minutes ago, Squid said:

Because the banner itself actually has nothing to do with CA at all.  CA introduced a mechanism to alert users for varying things.  And, as the data file that mechanism utilizes changes, I will not be announcing each and every new notification.  Because this was a new feature, the 4 possible notifications at the time were itemized within the thread.

 

CA will only ever alert you for the "You must see this" type of thing based upon your installed environment.  The ability to opt out is there, and the ability to dismiss any given notification is also there.  The PSA was a last minute addition to that data file, and not everyone will ever see it, as it is tailored to user's system.  Its fundamentally no different than the multitude of unsolicited emails that's been filling my inbox with how such and such company I haven't dealt with in years in now sanitizing their gas pumps daily (lol).

 

This mechanism is long over due within unRaid and IMHO is an outright requirement for an OS.  The PSA, sure it's a grey area, but I'm not offering any apologies for it.  And I would expect that the vast majority of computer users across the spectrum do not even know that the applications even exist.

Really.  That's completely up to you, but if you do choose to uninstall CA because it can't be trusted, then I would also recommend you uninstall every other piece of software (docker apps and plugins) from your server.  CA is 100% wide open on everything it does behind the scenes to protect you (and by "protect" I am definitely NOT referring to the PSA), along with it's code being completely view-able in a public repository unlike many applications available on any given platform.

 

I will however let you know that any possible future notifications are not going to be publicized within a change log, because they are all already listed here in the forums.  The whole point of this mechanism was so that the notifications can be dispersed without an update being required to any given plugin or the OS. 

The point is that you're soliciting on my server without consent or knowledge. It's one thing to give notifications regarding server related issues or updates, but to insert your own opinions or ideas sets a precedence. What "must see" notifications can we expect in the future? I think what you did was wrong even if you had good intentions. That is all.

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9 minutes ago, kpereira said:

What "must see" notifications can we expect in the future?

If I knew, the mechanism wouldn't need to be there

 

But what I'd expect is along the lines of malware contained within an app you have installed and the like.

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8 minutes ago, alael said:

I also think its not okay, no one authorized you to send unsollecited or any kind of notification for what ever intention you had its ethically wrong and you never asked for permission,

 

Either this function has to be blocked by @limetech in a way that you are not able to do what ever you want like you doing now or someone with better sense of ''appropriateness'' should fork CA, If you wanted to lose people trust you did chose the best way to do it.

In your opinion.

 

<my opinion>
Personally, I like the features added. I’m not really sure what your objection is but as stated before you can opt out from this feature. If you don’t like the way CA is setup you don’t even have to use it. UnRAID will run without it. I think if this is a feature request it’s rather rude.

</my opinion>

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Wow, strong complaints about something rather benign compared to most OSes. 

 

I guess those of you complaining have never used Windows 10.  Notifications from everything under the sun kept popping up and I finally disabled them all.  The problem with that is that there are some notifications I actually do want to receive, so, the only options is to turn them back on and then disable them one by one per app/third party.  I am guaranteed to get at least one from who-knows-what new source before I can decide if I want to disable it.

 

Frankly, I am 100% behind what Squid did with the notification system and agree with the way he has implemented it.  It is much less intrusive than the Windows 10 notification system and not open to general third-party abuse.

 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess, but I do not see it as a security risk or inappropriate at all given its intended purpose.  I guess I have no problem with "Community Apps" notifying me of something that I consider to be a "community" issue but I respect the rights of others to hold differing opinions on the matter.

Edited by Hoopster
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I appreciate the work that Squid does and all the developers that work on Unraid/the community applications. I purchased Unraid multiple times and will continue to do so, however I'd like to take a civil approach to asking that any developer realize this is not okay. I am all for donating and giving time to organizations but that's my decision. I would never ask and have never asked in anything I've distributed for free or paid for something like this. I think this is irresponsible and a blatant disrespect of the community. I feel a much more appropriate tone would have been a post just in the forums or an email even. Instead we are invaded by messages that should not be.

 

I didn't bring politics or ethics into the equation. I expect the developers of Unraid/CA respect that my server is a business and the forums are the community.

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2 hours ago, Squid said:

CA will only ever alert you for the "You must see this" type of thing based upon your installed environment.

So you just lied. No matter what you cannot say the notification is a "you must see this" alert.

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2 minutes ago, alael said:

Community means everyone not 1 not 2 or a small number of people.

Well, over 800 unRAID community members have joined in the BOINC and FAH projects since that announcement was made.  Many of them are proudly announcing their participation. They likely would not have known about the opportunity to join in without the announcement so I don't think those 800 are up in arms over the notification.

 

So far, the tally appears to be, 800 for and 2 against if you are looking for votes.

 

Again, you see things differently and that's OK.  There is likely never to be 100% agreement on things of this nature.

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9 minutes ago, Hoopster said:

Well, over 800 unRAID community members have joined in the BOINC and FAH projects since that announcement was made.  Many of them are proudly announcing their participation. They likely would not have known about the opportunity to join in without the announcement so I don't think those 800 are up in arms over the notification.

 

So far, the tally appears to be, 800 for and 2 against if you are looking for votes.

 

Again, you see things differently and that's OK.  There is likely never to be 100% agreement on things of this nature.

 

THIS is NOT how you go about discussing a subject of this importance. Just because 800 people joined the program does NOT mean they personally feel it is okay for CA to do this. Now or ever! Your post is a problem and I'm all for toxicity however I paid for Unraid and would like not to be bothered by an agenda on my own hardware. Even if I do donate my hardware to the cause using those projects I won't do it with the "Unraid Team" if this is how CA conducts in the future. 

 

You can dismiss alael, myself, and others... But doing so is not going to help the community. We're not a fringe group on the edge of political dissidence, we believe in "our hardware, our right".

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1 minute ago, BRiT said:

Can this recent discussion be spawned off onto a feedback topic since it goes beyond just CA but what in general should be announced and what shouldn't etc.

I agree with this. There should be a standard agreed on by the developers and the community at large. Discussion is key here. If CA did this now (my first experience with this in Unraid) where does it end? Do we start telling people about religions? Presidential candidates?

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3 hours ago, Hoopster said:

Wow, strong complaints about something rather benign compared to most OSes. 

 

I guess those of you complaining have never used Windows 10.  Notifications from everything under the sun kept popping up and I finally disabled them all.  The problem with that is that there are some notifications I actually do want to receive, so, the only options is to turn them back on and then disable them one by one per app/third party.  I am guaranteed to get at least one from who-knows-what new source before I can decide if I want to disable it.

 

Frankly, I am 100% behind what Squid did with the notification system and agree with the way he has implemented it.  It is much less intrusive than the Windows 10 notification system and not open to general third-party abuse.

 

Different strokes for different folks, I guess, but I do not see it as a security risk or inappropriate at all given its intended purpose.  I guess I have no problem with "Community Apps" notifying me of something that I consider to be a "community" issue but I respect the rights of others to hold differing opinions on the matter.

Ehm, i didnt got a single corona virus notification in my windows 10 install... What noticed do you mean? I mean yes, updates and... enable firewall such things, what messages windows 10 shows you? Im confused.

 

I would have never had a problem if anything "contacts" me if its RELATED to my SERVER or APPS. Thats why i install this stuff. Thats okay. But now its corona, next time its germanys next topmodel, you know!? Where does it start where does it end? That has nothing to do with my server, in the end its simply a ADVERTISEMENT. 


If i get a email in the middle of the night named "unRAID Status: Attention Required".. and then its just because of some "hey i thought u wanna maybe help with this" instead of something real. Yea... i feel that is really bad, nice idea, but bad done.

Edited by nuhll
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4 hours ago, Hoopster said:

Well, over 800 unRAID community members have joined in the BOINC and FAH projects since that announcement was made.  Many of them are proudly announcing their participation. They likely would not have known about the opportunity to join in without the announcement so I don't think those 800 are up in arms over the notification.

 

So far, the tally appears to be, 800 for and 2 against if you are looking for votes.

 

Again, you see things differently and that's OK.  There is likely never to be 100% agreement on things of this nature.

This isn't even logical. There is no voting mechanism, you're just assuming these 800+ people were okay with the solicitation. By that logic, can we just assume everyone who did not participate after the notification was not okay with the solicitation? Since we're just assuming here, I'll assume that the number of people who did not participate after the solicitation outnumber the people who did participate.

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32 minutes ago, kpereira said:

This isn't even logical. There is no voting mechanism, you're just assuming these 800+ people were okay with the solicitation

My statement about 800+ being OK with the notification was in response to this statement by another of the opponents:

 

"think many more are gonna agree with my position then with yours, As clearly seen just a few post above."

 

If he can argue that 3-4 people objecting to the notification in the forums is evidence that "many more" people agree with his position and support it, then I can argue that the 800+ people participating in the COVID groups BECAUSE OF the notification is also evidence that they likely were OK with the notification (as some have stated).  No one participating seemed to have chimed in and said "Hey, I am doing the COVID thing, but, I really hated that you told me about it."

 

In both of my prior posts on the subject I clearly stated that I respected the right of anyone to have a differing opinion and that I realized that my agreement and your disagreement was a likely outcome of something like implementing a notification system with various uses.  You (and others) expressed your disagreement with how it was done.  I merely raised my voice and said I was OK with it.  Apparently, my opinion is not as valid as yours. 

 

The idea that  @Squid or someone else is going to get a hold of this notification system and start injecting religious and political messages into the UI is also far-fetched.  Squids are agnostic and apolitical.  I have been in these forums for 10 years and one of the things I like best about this community is that the discussions stay on point and don't stray off into controversial or polarizing topics.  Everyone seems to respect that and is self-policing.  Perhaps COVID is polarizing and political to some?  I don't see it that way, so I was OK with it.

 

Someone else was upset that It was it was "his server and his property so no one had the right to display anything there."  If this had actually affected the server hardware (like taking it over for bitcoin mining), I would be in 100% agreement.  This notification was in the UI of the OS.  Limetech owns and licenses the OS.  They do have the right to do what they want in their software and were apparently OK with the notification.  Perhaps they will rethink that.

 

Again, you are welcome to your opinion, but, I am equally entitled to have my own.  Why is saying I was OK with the notifications system and the COVID message any different that you saying you were not?

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12 minutes ago, Hoopster said:

My statement about 800+ being OK with the notification was in response to this statement by another of the opponents:

 

"think many more are gonna agree with my position then with yours, As clearly seen just a few post above."

 

If he can argue that 3-4 people objecting to the notification in the forums is evidence that "many more" people agree with his position and support it, then I can argue that the 800+ people participating in the COVID groups BECAUSE OF the notification is also evidence that they likely were OK with the notification (as some have stated).  No one participating seemed to have chimed in and said "Hey, I am doing the COVID thing, but, I really hated that you told me about it."

 

In both of my prior posts on the subject I clearly stated that I respected the right of anyone to have a differing opinion and that I realized that my agreement and your disagreement was a likely outcome of something like implementing a notification system with various uses.  You (and others) expressed your disagreement with how it was done.  I merely raised my voice and said I was OK with it.  Apparently, my opinion is not as valid as yours. 

 

The idea that  @Squid or someone else is going to get a hold of this notification system and start injecting religious and political messages into the UI is also far-fetched.  Squids are agnostic and apolitical.  I have been in these forums for 10 years and one of the things I like best about this community is that the discussions stay on point and don't stray off into controversial or polarizing topics.  Everyone seems to respect that and is self-policing.  Perhaps COVID is polarizing and political to some?  I don't see it that way, so I was OK with it.

 

Someone else was upset that It was it was "his server and his property so no one had the right to display anything there."  If this had actually affected the server hardware (like taking it over for bitcoin mining), I would be in 100% agreement.  This notification was in the UI of the OS.  Limetech owns and licenses the OS.  They do have the right to do what they want in their software and were apparently OK with the notification.  Perhaps they will rethink that.

 

Again, you are welcome to your opinion, but, I am equally entitled to have my own.  Why is saying I was OK with the notifications system and the COVID message any different that you saying you were not?

You seem to misunderstand. I don't care what your opinion on the notification feature or the solicitation is and I'm not criticizing it. I am criticizing what you call "evidence". Just because someone else made an illogical conclusion doesn't make yours valid.

 

Furthermore, there has already been one solicitation through this feature. That's a fact. The developer of the plug-in is offering no guarantee that there won't be additional solicitations in the future. To say it's far-fetched additional solicitations will be injected in the future is just ignorant.

 

Lastly, this is not a limetech plug-in, so I don't know what makes you think limetech is somehow okay with this behavior. I have raised my concerns to their support team, though, so we'll see what they say.

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44 minutes ago, Hoopster said:

 

 

The idea that  @Squid or someone else is going to get a hold of this notification system and start injecting religious and political messages into the UI is also far-fetched.  Squids are agnostic and apolitical. 

History disagrees. The first thing he did with it was send a message with an agenda...He wants everyone to know that the COVID-19 problem can be helped even just slightly by running algorithms for non-profits. This should be used for CA information only...

 

What he did doesn't make him a bad guy, In fact his concern and tribute to what is happening in the world today is amazing... I just don't want it injected into MY Unraid server without consent. & I promise you, I will never consent... I love that we got moved to a new post and are discussing it but please... Hoopster...

 

"Get off my lawn"

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4 hours ago, BRiT said:

Can this recent discussion be spawned off onto a feedback topic since it goes beyond just CA but what in general should be announced and what shouldn't etc.

I've loved the message, but frankly the vehicle was not appropriated. IMHO if some functionality is part of the plugin scope, that's ok just allow users to opt-out. If it isn't part of the scope, it should be an opt-in functionality.

I got many criticism (@Squid included) about the statistics system in Preclear Plugin because it was in the beginning an opt-out system, and they were right. Since it was out of the scope of the plugin, I've added it as a separated plugin. Squid should do the same, an opt-in system to messages unrelated to Community Applications scope.

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Given the notifications appear to be sent as high priority, which causes Pushover to override phone DND settings and make a sound regardless, would it be possible to allow users to configure a time window in which these alerts are delivered?

 

The PSA arrived at 0230 UK time, and it's not really a "you need to wake up and deal with this now" thing — and nor are any of the other notices listed above 🙂

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I'm not sure which application in the Community Apps library was responsible for the popup alert about COVID-19 support, but I will be uninstalling all CA packages as a result. It was invasive and I'm not okay with that. I get it was a good gesture, and its got some serious circumstances behind it - but I like it when other people aren't touching my systems. I'm even okay with pinning the apps to the top of the list like they are. Just not the invasive nature of the popup and warning banner. Felt like I was visiting a webpage with my adblocker off.

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