PSA on SanDisk USBs

[Miss_Sissy]

19 minutes ago, NeoJoris said:

Those are expensieve! 

 

 

Came here looking for a replacement recommendation after seeing that my newly acquired Sandisk Ultra Fit wont work anymore...

 

The search continues... 

In the U.S. they are not very expensive, with the 4GB version selling for about $55 (U.S. dollars) on DigiKey.

[Miss_Sissy]

On 5/22/2024 at 1:23 AM, nickp85 said:

I had two Samsung Fit 32GB USB3 drives and they both failed within a year, one time I had to get Unraid support involved to get a new key since it had been less than 12 months. They just burn themselves out with consistent use and are too small to be properly cooled. Ended up going with a tried and true Kingston 16GB USB2 metal stick and it's been rock solid now for years. My coworker also had multiple Samsung Fit USB3 fail on him in about the same time period.

That’s exactly my point: Samsung has the flash tech to make long-lived USB drives, but they only offer it in their PRO Endurance line of MicroSDXC cards.  That’s probably because most USB flash drive buyers care only about speed and price, not longevity.

[Elmojo]

34 minutes ago, Miss_Sissy said:

In the U.S. they are not very expensive, with the 4GB version selling for about $55 (U.S. dollars) on DigiKey.

That's an absolutely insane price for a 4GB flash device, regardless of whether it's "industrial" or not.  The fact is, flash devices are fairly robust, as long as they're not bottom-tier garbage to begin with.  When (not if) they fail, you just replace it using the rather simple process built into unraid.  I think folks (myself included) are making a bigger deal than necessary about the flash boot drive needing to be rock solid nuclear proof.  I just don't see it being needed.  Buy a decent drive, run it until it dies, replace it, move on. 

Is there a hidden danger of data loss here I'm not seeing?  Does the LimeTech replacement process not work well?  I've only had to do it twice, and both times, it worked just fine.

[Miss_Sissy]

3 hours ago, Elmojo said:

That's an absolutely insane price for a 4GB flash device, regardless of whether it's "industrial" or not.

 

Competing 4GB industrial, SLC drives from Amtron, Delkin, and Innodisk range in price from $58 to $86.  If those were 'insane prices,' Avnet, DigiKey, and Mouser would not carry such products since those distributors cater to engineers who know what products like those should cost.

 

It's a SLC-based SSD with 10-year data retention, 60,000 program/erase cycle endurance, and an MTBF of >5,000,000 hours.  It has a real SSD controller with wear leveling.  It's a completely different class of device than a mass-market thumb drive.

3 hours ago, Elmojo said:

The fact is, flash devices are fairly robust, as long as they're not bottom-tier garbage to begin with.

Then why do so many people with name-brand, consumer-grade flash drives report failures when using them as Unraid boot drives?  Unraid is not an application that writes much to the drives.

 

3 hours ago, Elmojo said:

When (not if) they fail, you just replace it using the rather simple process built into unraid.  I think folks (myself included) are making a bigger deal than necessary about the flash boot drive needing to be rock solid nuclear proof.  I just don't see it being needed.  Buy a decent drive, run it until it dies, replace it, move on. 

Is there a hidden danger of data loss here I'm not seeing?  Does the LimeTech replacement process not work well?  I've only had to do it twice, and both times, it worked just fine.

 

It works fine if you're sitting at home with time to kill when you notice the failure.  But what do you do if you are on travel and get a panicked call from your spouse saying they can't access files on the NAS they need for their work?  What if you're running a public-facing mail server, web server, or FTP server?

 

I'm not trying to convince you to move to a high-reliability/longevity industrial SLC drive if you don't feel that you need it.  

 

But the price of the recommended drive is not at all out of line for that class and capacity of storage device.

 

☮️

 

[Elmojo]

30 minutes ago, Miss_Sissy said:

It's a completely different class of device than a mass-market thumb drive.

Which is precisely my point.

30 minutes ago, Miss_Sissy said:

Then why do so many people with name-brand, consumer-grade flash drives report failures when using them as Unraid boot drives?  Unraid is not an application that writes much to the drives.

Because as with all products, you generally only hear from the complaint department.  Happy customers are quiet customers.  I have no doubt that some drives fail, but I highly doubt it's a widespread problem affecting a significant portion of the user base.

 

33 minutes ago, Miss_Sissy said:

What if you're running a public-facing mail server, web server, or FTP server?

You should not be using unraid for such things.  Or if you do, you should also have backup a server(s) in place to serve as failover, just as in a real production environment.

 

[Miss_Sissy]

32 minutes ago, Elmojo said:

Which is precisely my point.

I must have missed that part of your earlier message.

 

32 minutes ago, Elmojo said:

Because as with all products, you generally only hear from the complaint department.  Happy customers are quiet customers.  I have no doubt that some drives fail, but I highly doubt it's a widespread problem affecting a significant portion of the user base.

Didn't you write that USB flash drive failure is a foregone conclusion ("When (not if) they fail") under Unraid?

 

32 minutes ago, Elmojo said:

You should not be using unraid for such things.  Or if you do, you should also have backup a server(s) in place to serve as failover, just as in a real production environment.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but I have locally hosted public and private network services for over 23 years.

 

 

[Elmojo]

7 minutes ago, Miss_Sissy said:

I must have missed that part of your earlier message.

You did indeed.

 

7 minutes ago, Miss_Sissy said:

Didn't you write that USB flash drive failure is a foregone conclusion

Apologies. I should have added the caveat that there's a time factor involved.  I didn't think I need to specify that all equipment fails eventually.  I was referring to premature failure.

9 minutes ago, Miss_Sissy said:

I have locally hosted public and private network services for over 23 years.

On unraid?  Quite the feat!

 

Regardless, It seems we have differing opinions on this, which is fine.  I, for one, have already expended more time and energy on this thread than I'd hoped to.  I apologise for taking up your time, and if I caused you any distress.  Have a beautiful day!

[babyhuehnchen]

Guess Ill post this here since i didnt find a definitive thread with devices confirmed NOT to work:

• Intenso ALU Line

[Frank1940]

3 hours ago, babyhuehnchen said:

Guess Ill post this here since i didnt find a definitive thread with devices confirmed NOT to work:

The reason for no separate thread is that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of flash drive brands that do have have unique GUID and the list grows daily.  And those brands can disappear just as quickly. 

[Miss_Sissy]

1 hour ago, Frank1940 said:

The reason for no separate thread is that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of flash drive brands that do have have unique GUID and the list grows daily.  And those brands can disappear just as quickly. 

Even some flash drive models that had unique GUIDs in the past now do not, likely due to late-stage capitalism squeezing manufacturers to save fractions of pennies per unit.  

 

(Should we start a thread listing models of computer cases that do not have removable drive caddies?)

 

 

 

 

[ConnerVT]

20 hours ago, Miss_Sissy said:

Even some flash drive models that had unique GUIDs in the past now do not, likely due to late-stage capitalism squeezing manufacturers to save fractions of pennies per unit. 

 

I strongly doubt this is the issue.  The GUID is how the flash drive manufacturers can track where/when a device was assembled and, in turn, which suppliers provided the components for that device.  It a the device's serial/lot number.  The GUID is more useful to the manufacturer than it is to the typical end user.  At least, if you are a reputable manufacturer.

 

A post COVID glut of memory chips, sanctions on Chinese semiconductor products, and an overall drop in off-shore manufacturing orders have made it much easier for fly-by-night outfits to make counterfeit flash drives with lower grade chips.  Online marketplaces like Amazon, Newegg, eBay and Alibaba help launder the fake with the genuine.  There is no need to bother generating a unique GUID, as those making the flash drive will never see it again once it is out of their door.

 

[adoucette]

19 minutes ago, ConnerVT said:

I strongly doubt this is the issue.

Evidence posted here to the contrary.

Whether this issue's origin is with cost savings, post-COVID supply chains, counterfeit drive sales, or something else, it remains an issue for users to find drives suitable for Unraid installation.

[ConnerVT]

6 minutes ago, adoucette said:

Evidence posted here to the contrary.

Whether this issue's origin is with cost savings, post-COVID supply chains, counterfeit drive sales, or something else, it remains an issue for users to find drives suitable for Unraid installation.

 

I have followed and contributed to this thread since it was started.  Saying there is contrary evidence to what I wrote without presenting it is not a valid argument.  I do agree that it has become more difficult to procure a flash drive that can function as an Unraid boot drive.  As I have offered in the past:

• Avoid purchasing from the major on-line marketplaces such as Amazon, eBay, etc.  Many of these co-mingle inventory from several suppliers, increasing the likelihood of getting a non-genuine drive.  Buying from a physical brick-and-mortar store is even better - The are more likely to have a better controlled supply chain.
• Purchase a drive from a second tier manufacturer.  Counterfeiters knock off the most popular brands - Samsung, SanDisk, etc.  You see counterfeit Rolex, but ever see a fake Timex?  You stand a better chance getting a genuine flash drive if you buy Kingston, PNY, Corsair.  Avoid those which you have never heard of.

 

The above may cost more than the lowest price you may find.  What is time and aggravation worth?

 

On 6/15/2024 at 5:49 AM, babyhuehnchen said:

Guess Ill post this here since i didnt find a definitive thread with devices confirmed NOT to work:

• Intenso ALU Line

 

In a quick Google search of "Intenso" and "Intenso ALU Line", I was unable to find a manufacturer's web presence, only sites reselling what looks to be a very cheap flash drive.  So it is no surprise that the company wouldn't be bothered to program a unique GUID (or even a company identifier or model).

[Miss_Sissy]

6 hours ago, ConnerVT said:

I strongly doubt this is the issue. 

 

There are people who strongly doubt that we actually landed a man on the moon, but it doesn't make it any less true.  😀

6 hours ago, ConnerVT said:

 

The GUID is how the flash drive manufacturers can track where/when a device was assembled and, in turn, which suppliers provided the components for that device.  It a the device's serial/lot number.  The GUID is more useful to the manufacturer than it is to the typical end user.  At least, if you are a reputable manufacturer.

 

When you return a failed $7 thumb drive to Amazon, Best Buy, Target, etc., it does not get flown back to China, South Korea, etc. for failure analysis and teardown.  It either gets tossed in the trash or sold on a pallet full of untested customer returns.  

 

6 hours ago, ConnerVT said:

A post COVID glut of memory chips, sanctions on Chinese semiconductor products, and an overall drop in off-shore manufacturing orders have made it much easier for fly-by-night outfits to make counterfeit flash drives with lower grade chips.  Online marketplaces like Amazon, Newegg, eBay and Alibaba help launder the fake with the genuine.  There is no need to bother generating a unique GUID, as those making the flash drive will never see it again once it is out of their door.

No manufacturer sees $7 flash drives again after they leave the factory, whether they are genuine or counterfeit.  

Limetech said that they don't know if the non-serialized (via GUID) SanDisk flash drives are genuine or counterfeit, but SanDisk will not respond to them.  Do you have information indicating that genuine SanDisk thumb drives all still have unique GUIDs?

 

5 hours ago, ConnerVT said:

You see counterfeit Rolex, but ever see a fake Timex?

https://exceptionaltiming.com/15-ways-to-know-if-a-timex-watch-is-an-original/

 

But I agree with that general point you were making about the price.  I could understand counterfeiting high capacity thumb drives, where the retail price is high enough to make it worthwhile.  But Best Buy has a 32GB SanDisk - Cruzer Glide thumb drive for $7.19.  I'm just not seeing any real margin at that end of the market, especially since the counterfeiters would have to amortize the cost of molds over such a small number of drives (relative to what SanDisk sells).

 

If you are a Chinese counterfeiter, you're much better off remarking $0.50 NE5532 opamps as something like $6 OPA2134s.  No retail packaging required.  No plastic molds.  Hundreds of them can be shipped in a few IC tubes.  And there is almost zero chance they will be spotted as counterfeit at the port of entry.

 

Edited Sunday at 06:25 PM by Miss_Sissy

[ConnerVT]

I work in semiconductor manufacturing, since the mid 1990's.  Before that, design and manufacture of some of the first graphics cards for the IBM PC, as well as working in computer retail stores (back when these actually existed).  So I would need to be someone who works at NASA and believes we never landed on the moon.

 

I am very well versed in semiconductor counterfeiting and supply chain control.  In fact, I am required to be recertified annually in several inter-related aspects of this.  So I just not making stuff up as I go along.

 

I highly doubt anyone is making their own knock off chips.  There is no need to.  Everything you need to build a flash drive is readily available.  It is really only 5 parts - Memory IC, controller IC, a circuit board, USB connector, and a shell/case.  Okay, perhaps a few capacitors and resistors.

 

Both ICs needed are readily available for purchase.  And at wholesale are relatively dirt cheap, especially if buying old/outdated controllers and low binned (think "factory seconds") memory chips.  There are suppliers making cheap flash drive circuit boards for the advertising/giveaway swag market, and smaller electronics assembly houses currently looking for work.

 

Probably the most expensive part of the operation is the shell and packaging.  But even that is likely less than $1 USD in volume quantities.  It may not seem like a profitable way to make money, but the key is doing this in volume.  Even a $2 profit on tens of thousands of units is still a decent profit.  In fact, more than the typical computer retailer makes.