Jump to content
Mihle

Lifetime of UPS.

41 posts in this topic Last Reply

Recommended Posts

There are not that many blackouts every year here, but I have been considering one for a while.

 

I just wonder, some say you have to replace them every 3-5 years, do they say that. Because it wears when it does its job? Wouldn't it then wear less if there doesn't happen that many blackouts? Couldn't you also just get a bigger one to get it to last longer?

Share this post


Link to post

You should not have to replace your UPS but just the battery . Typicaly the ups indicates when its time to do so.

And then they are as good as new again.

Share this post


Link to post

All UPS do not allow the battery change though. Those are generally a bit cheaper at first, but more expensive in the long term.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, ChatNoir said:

All UPS do not allow the battery change though. Those are generally a bit cheaper at first, but more expensive in the long term.

Just opposite, I never found a UPS design haven't replace battery feature. In fact it cost at first, then battery is long term running cost.

 

Due to this behaviour, my current UPS were got from internet forum, people found it not working and give out free. My other UPS also a fault unit cost ~20USD and lucky just battery problem too. The 2nd unit still sitting as spare 3yr+ due to 1st unit still working by 3-4 yrs battery replacement.

Edited by Vr2Io

Share this post


Link to post

On a fixed battery UPS, once the battery dies, you have to buy the whole thing again.

If you can replace the battery, the cost is much lower than a whole new unit.

 

On a 5 or 10 year time, any gain made on the initial purchase is completly negated.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, ChatNoir said:

On a fixed battery UPS, once the battery dies, you have to buy the whole thing again.

If you can replace the battery, the cost is much lower than a whole new unit.

 

On a 5 or 10 year time, any gain made on the initial purchase is completly negated.

Most people seem to say that they last 3-5 years before the batteries need to be changed, is that true no matter how many brownouts or blackouts happen or doesn't happen? Or can one a place where it doesn't happen much, can the batteries last longer if it doesn't?

 

Also, would a UPS that is larger compared to what's actually needed make the batteries last longer?

 

If I were to get one that the batteries is replacable, I should also check if I can actually buy batteries were I live.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Mihle said:

Most people seem to say that they last 3-5 years before the batteries need to be changed, is that true no matter how many brownouts or blackouts happen or doesn't happen? Or can one a place where it doesn't happen much, can the batteries last longer if it doesn't?

 

Also, would a UPS that is larger compared to what's actually needed make the batteries last longer?

 

If I were to get one that the batteries is replacable, I should also check if I can actually buy batteries were I live.

 

 

They are VERY similar to automobile batteries. They typically last between 3-5 years, don't like extreme temperatures, don't like extreme discharges, don't like repeated deep discharges, can fail for no apparent reason sometimes.

 

Configure your equipment to finish shutting down before the batteries drain below 50%, keep them at human comfortable temps, and you have the best chance of keeping them for as long as possible.

 

Many name brand UPS's try to make you think the batteries are special, I have yet to find one that uses truly proprietary batteries, they all just add plastic bits and wire jumpers with strong double stick tape to generic batteries.

 

If you have a local source for alarm panel batteries, they are generally the same.

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, jonathanm said:

They are VERY similar to automobile batteries. They typically last between 3-5 years, don't like extreme temperatures, don't like extreme discharges, don't like repeated deep discharges, can fail for no apparent reason sometimes.

 

Configure your equipment to finish shutting down before the batteries drain below 50%, keep them at human comfortable temps, and you have the best chance of keeping them for as long as possible.

 

Many name brand UPS's try to make you think the batteries are special, I have yet to find one that uses truly proprietary batteries, they all just add plastic bits and wire jumpers with strong double stick tape to generic batteries.

 

If you have a local source for alarm panel batteries, they are generally the same.

Worth noting that the power goes out maybe 3 times a year here, sometimes less. Also zero brownouts.

Share this post


Link to post
57 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Worth noting that the power goes out maybe 3 times a year here, sometimes less. Also zero brownouts.

Doesn't really make a difference. @jonathanm said it very well:
 

Quote

They are VERY similar to automobile batteries. They typically last between 3-5 years, don't like extreme temperatures, don't like extreme discharges, don't like repeated deep discharges, can fail for no apparent reason sometimes.

 

Configure your equipment to finish shutting down before the batteries drain below 50%, keep them at human comfortable temps, and you have the best chance of keeping them for as long as possible.

Just plan on needing to replace the battery in 3 years.  That way, when it doesn't happen, you get a happy surprise.

Share this post


Link to post
Just now, whipdancer said:

Doesn't really make a difference. @jonathanm said it very well:
 

Just plan on needing to replace the battery in 3 years.  That way, when it doesn't happen, you get a happy surprise.

But also, automobile batteries is used to turn on the car and spark plugs regulary while the UPS wouldn't, so it doesn't make sense to me.

Are all UPSes really lead batteries?

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Mihle said:

But also, automobile batteries is used to turn on the car and spark plugs regulary while the UPS wouldn't, so it doesn't make sense to me.

Are all UPSes really lead batteries?

Automobile batteries are normally used in 2 ways, 1, to start the car, 2, to smooth out the power supplied by the alternator. If your car's spark plugs are running off of the battery, you are going to have a bad time in a few minutes.

 

If things are working properly, starting the car takes a VERY tiny percent of the batteries capacity. If it's really cold out, and the car is in a poor state of tune, you may end up using a good portion of the battery before it starts, but you won't do that very often before you are replacing the battery.

 

And yes, 99% of UPS batteries are SLA (sealed lead acid)

Share this post


Link to post

Why aren't more UPSes that exist with lithium batteries? They should last much longer from what I know about battery technology.

 

Not sure if I want to get an UPS if it's only last 3-5 years.

Share this post


Link to post
4 hours ago, Mihle said:

Why aren't more UPSes that exist with lithium batteries? They should last much longer from what I know about battery technology.

Cost, and they're a pain in the rear to ship

Share this post


Link to post
12 minutes ago, Michael_P said:

Cost, and they're a pain in the rear to ship

People would be willing to pay twice the amount for batteries that have much longer lifespan, at least I would.

Share this post


Link to post

It wouldn't be twice the cost, it would be more like 5-10 times. Logistics is a key factor driving costs for all products - lithium batteries in that kind of density could never be shipped air, and limited in weight when shipping ground. Special circuitry would need to be incorporated into the design and a bunch of testing performed before it's even allowed to ship ground. It's just impractical for consumer goods.

 

And that's before you factor in the cost of the battery itself.

Share this post


Link to post

I've been a long term user of APC SmartUPS units, all the way back to the mid 90s. Heck I just "retired" a pair of units that have 1998 date codes on them; the electronics in them finally has worn out enough that they no longer accurately report battery life and power utilization figures.  If you didn't mind them flashing and beeping for 90 minutes, they'd still power the load for that long.  I did, since they talk to servers and tell them when to shut down.  The number of batteries i've gone through on them is probably an impressive figure.  Like many other things in this world, your cost of "consumables" (batteries) will far outstrip the cost of a good quality device, in the long term.

Share this post


Link to post
9 hours ago, Mihle said:

Why aren't more UPSes that exist with lithium batteries? They should last much longer from what I know about battery technology.

 

Not sure if I want to get an UPS if it's only last 3-5 years.

Here you go.

https://lithium-ion-ups.com/

Share this post


Link to post

So oversizing an UPS does not make it last longer, it's about max 5 years anyway?

 

When do an UPS decide when it's time for the battery to be replaced?

 

Btw, my NAS currently is idle around 40w ish, don't quite sure under load.

 

Is it really worth getting an UPS for unRAID tho? I don't really run much else than Nextcloud and local storage on it where it's currently mostly me using it.  Don't know the future tho.

Share this post


Link to post
16 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Is it really worth getting an UPS for unRAID tho

If your power goes out, you will get an automatic parity check for unclean shutdown, and probably some sync errors you need to correct. Even some possibility for corruption

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, Mihle said:

So oversizing an UPS does not make it last longer, it's about max 5 years anyway

The UPS itself can last many years longer, the batteries need to be replaced periodically. Oversizing does two things, allows longer runtime, and consume more electricity during normal non-backup running.

4 minutes ago, Mihle said:

When do an UPS decide when it's time for the battery to be replaced?

Most do a periodic test that simulates a power failure and starts drawing power from the batteries. If the batteries lose voltage faster than normal, the UPS signals a battery failure. Many UPS's also track the calculated runtime based on how much capacity the batteries had when new, and the tested capacity, and signal a failure when the battery is significantly weaker.

 

7 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Btw, my NAS currently is idle around 40w ish, don't quite sure under load.

Under full load is the only figure that matters, as shutting down the running system puts it at full load for the duration of the shutdown. Since you can't divine the future, there is no way to know how long the power outage will be, so you must plan to always shut down the system during an outage.

 

That means to properly size a UPS, you find the full load power draw, and the maximum time it takes to do an unplanned shutdown, with all services and VM's being utilized. You then take that power and double the time, and look on the manufacturers spec sheet to find the appropriate UPS.

 

If your system takes 100W at full load, and it requires 5 minutes to shut down, then you need to find a UPS capable of supplying 100W for 10 minutes. This is the minimum size required, and assumes you will configure the server to shut down almost immediately when the power is cut, waiting 1 minute at most.

 

Also keep in mind that your network equipment should also be on the UPS if you plan on communicating with your server after the power goes out and before it's shut down.

 

14 minutes ago, Mihle said:

Is it really worth getting an UPS for unRAID tho? I don't really run much else than Nextcloud and local storage on it where it's currently mostly me using it.  Don't know the future tho.

Do you keep a full current backup of everything on your server? If so, then you can probably skip a UPS.

Share this post


Link to post
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, trurl said:

If your power goes out, you will get an automatic parity check for unclean shutdown, and probably some sync errors you need to correct. Even some possibility for corruption

My NAS has experienced maybe 5 times or so that power have gone out the last two years, there have never been any sync errors.

Edited by Mihle

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Mihle said:

any sync errors

yet

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.