CRC error count getting larger

[gertab]

Hi,

 

I am having an unusually large amount of crc error saying that the count is increasing. I having changed the SATA cables because I thought they were the cause but as it seems they're not. Can anyone give me any suggestions? Thanks

[JorgeB]

If it's not the cables, it's likely one of these: port/controller, backplane (if using one) or PSU.

[gertab]

May I ask what a backplane is?

[JorgeB]

Used mostly on hotswap chassis, though it can also be non hotswap, it's when there's a caddy/tray to insert the disk.

[gertab]

This is my setup:

CPU:            2 x Intel XEON E5-2650 SR0KQ Octa Core CPU 8x 2,00 GHz 2011 8 Core Matched Pair
Motherboard:    Intel S2600CP2J Motherboard Dual 2011 Socket Motherboard
Memory:         Used Micron VLP 32GB (8x4GB) DDR3 PC3-10600R 
CPU Cooler:     2 x Arctic Alpine 11 Pro Rev.2
Storage:        HGST Deskstar NAS H3IKNAS400012872SWW 4TB
PSU:            Seasonic S12II-520 Bronze 520 Watt
Case:           Phanteks Enthoo Pro Midi-Tower mit Fenster titanium grün
Case fans:      2 x Arctic F12 PWM 120mm Lüfter Rev. 2

I don't have any hot swapping features.

[pwm]

Since it's always the same serial number on the drive - do you have any other port you can try moving the SSD to?

[JorgeB]

SATA cable would still be my first guess, even if already swapped, you need high quality SATA cables for SSDs, and in my experience Samsung ones are particularly picky.

[pwm]

1 hour ago, johnnie.black said:

SATA cable would still be my first guess, even if already swapped, you need high quality SATA cables for SSDs, and in my experience Samsung ones are particularly picky.

 

Not just good cables - it's important to verify that it's cables intended for the 6 Gbit/s standard. Lots of stores still sells 3 Gbit/s cables.

[gertab]

I got these cables:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-III-SATA3-SATA3-0-Data-Cable-Straight-Hard-Drive-Cable-6GB-S-Black/381859093699?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Do you think that they're not good enough?

[pwm]

1 hour ago, gertab said:

I got these cables:  

https://www.ebay.com/itm/SATA-III-SATA3-SATA3-0-Data-Cable-Straight-Hard-Drive-Cable-6GB-S-Black/381859093699?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Do you think that they're not good enough?

 

They claim the correct standard. But it's impossible to know the quality of no-name products.

 

Have you tried moving the SSD to another port?

[John_M]

I prefer cables that are a bit more flexible than the usual nasty stiff red ones. Those ebay items look like black versions of the same stiff cables but with locking connectors.

[gertab]

1 hour ago, pwm said:

 

They claim the correct standard. But it's impossible to know the quality of no-name products.

 

Have you tried moving the SSD to another port?

I tried but unfortunately no improvement.

 

1 hour ago, John_M said:

I prefer cables that are a bit more flexible than the usual nasty stiff red ones. Those ebay items look like black versions of the same stiff cables but with locking connectors.

Do you have any suggestions? I bought those because I though they were better than the cheap ones bought locally.

[Squid]

39 minutes ago, gertab said:

I bought those because I though they were better than the cheap ones bought locally.

  Personally myself, I always go with a "local" version instead of a cheap Chinese import via EBay if I was looking for quality.

 

Other remote possibilities:

• Don't tie cabling together.  Cables should always be "random" to avoid cross-talk
• Ideally, data cables should always cross power cables at 90 degrees and should never be tied to them.
• If you insist on tying cabling together, the tie-straps shouldn't be too tight.  Too tight and it changes the characteristics of the cable
• SATA cables are not designed to be folded at a sharp degree.  All bends should be gradual and not forced.
• Could also simply be a bad drive or marginal PSU / splitters going to the drive

 

[John_M]

2 hours ago, gertab said:

Do you have any suggestions? I bought those because I though they were better than the cheap ones bought locally.

 

I like the flexible figure-of-eight style ones rather than the stiff flat ones. The connector itself is a poor design but there's not much you can do about that, other than buy cables with locking connectors - if they're appropriate for the sockets.

[Frank1940]

Watch out for this:

 

    https://support.wdc.com/knowledgebase/answer.aspx?ID=10477

 

While WD is the manufacturer who put out this FAQ, I doubt if they were they only who may have seem fit to modify the design of the  connector on their drives.  If you are using locking cables (or even standard cables), give a little gentle pull on the cable.  You should be able to feel the resistance before it releases.  With no resistance , you have a floating connection which may, or may not, make a reliable connection depending on temperature, vibration or the time of day.   

[Frank1940]

15 minutes ago, John_M said:

The connector itself is a poor design

 

You have understated the  facts-----   It is the poster child on 'How Not to Design a Connector'!!!!

[John_M]

1 minute ago, Frank1940 said:

 

You have understated the  facts-----   It is the poster child on 'How Not to Design a Connector'!!!!

 

I'm sure you remember the old flat ribbon cables, Frank. They were pretty horrible because they were so wide and blocked air flow, but I found the connectors much more reliable than SATA ones and you could even make up the cables to the correct length yourself.

[JonathanM]

Just now, Frank1940 said:

 

You have understated the  facts-----   It is the poster child on 'How Not to Design a Connector'!!!!

Come now, the connector works fine as long as both sides are held to close mechanical tolerances and not allowed to move in any dimension or experience any strain or vibration.

 

?

 

BTW, Originally I was of the impression that crosstalk was the culprit when bundled SATA cables gave issues, now I'm not. I'm fairly positive ALL the issues are the result of that stupid connector, and the side load that is applied when cables are pulled into a specific path or pattern that they don't naturally want to follow.

 

ANY deviation from a straight relaxed end causes the little spring wires in the cable to not wipe the contact with enough force to make a solid electrical joint. A partial connection causes high resistance and vulnerability to noise.

[JonathanM]

1 minute ago, John_M said:

They were pretty horrible because they were so wide and blocked air flow,

Only in one dimension. Crafty cable management could keep them flat to the case, and out of the way. Dells typically had clips at critical locations and specific length cables to keep the cable from impeding airflow.

[John_M]

6 minutes ago, jonathanm said:

Come now, the connector works fine as long as both sides are held to close mechanical tolerances and not allowed to move in any dimension or experience any strain or vibration.

 

I have considered gluing them in place. Not with the type of solvent glue that dissolves plastics but with the stuff that hardens to a rubbery material that can be removed without causing damage or leaving a residue.

[JonathanM]

19 minutes ago, John_M said:

 

I have considered gluing them in place. Not with the type of solvent glue that dissolves plastics but with the stuff that hardens to a rubbery material that can be removed without causing damage or leaving a residue.

Hot snot. https://www.hotmelt.com/collections/hot-melt-glue-guns

It's commonly used EXACTLY as you have described, for the purposes you want. Get the lowest melting point practical, that way you can aim a hair dryer or other hot air source at it to help remove or reattach it.

[Frank1940]

52 minutes ago, jonathanm said:

ANY deviation from a straight relaxed end causes the little spring wires in the cable to not wipe the contact with enough force to make a solid electrical joint. A partial connection causes high resistance and vulnerability to noise.

 

However, the 'little spring wires' will not have any force against the 'lands' on the other connector unless that little plastic tab is inside of the connector to force those lands into the springs.  Plus, without that tab, there is no friction to hold the two ends together.  Get a WD drive without that shroud and try it with a latching connector (I have).  You will find it goes in-and-out with requiring any force whatsoever!  (Any electrical  connection for those seven confection points is strictly hit-or-miss.)  If the shroud is there, the spring force of the latch will deform the plastic of the cable (opposite to the springs) to force the lands onto the springs.   (If you don't think the plastic deforms, just push on the plastic housing opposite the lands of a SATA cable and see it deform.)

 

Personally, I think Crosstalk can be a very real issue but I also feel that your point is very valid about problems with restricting cables also causing problems.  With that poor connector design, almost anything can (and does) cause a problem.  I suspect that a lot of disks that come up 'missing' after a restart for disk maintenance routines are connected to 'cable dressing'.    

 

EDIT:  One more thought. The friction that you feel is actually the deformation of the plastic in the SATA Cable as it deforms because the plastic tab is designed to force an  interference fit.  

[pwm]

1 hour ago, jonathanm said:

Only in one dimension. Crafty cable management could keep them flat to the case, and out of the way. Dells typically had clips at critical locations and specific length cables to keep the cable from impeding airflow.

 

I normally did 45 degree bends to move them out of the way. Worked well with both IDE, floppy and SCSI cables.

 

I never had a machine with air flow issues caused by any IDE cables. The only case I have had airflow issues with was my Chieftec Jumbo 15 because that case was designed to just cool disks and with almost zero air movements over the motherboard - a result of the case being designed for high-power SATA disks at a time when the CPU might consume max 15 W and there was no 3D graphics cards.

[pwm]

19 minutes ago, Frank1940 said:

However, the 'little spring wires' will not have any force against the 'lands' on the other connector unless that little plastic tab is inside of the connector to force those lands into the springs.

 

Gold-plated connectors normally uses (and requires) very little contact pressure.

 

What you want is mechanical pressure on the connector shells to make sure vibration doesn't move the connector, resulting in wear on the contact points.

 

Connectors that aren't using gold-plated surfaces are normally designed so there is a significant contact force - often because one part of the connector is intended to cut into the metal of the other surface to form a gas-tight connection to avoid oxidation. But this isn't required - or wanted - for gold-plated connectors.

 

One problem with gold-plated connectors and low contact pressure is that in some designs, vibrations can allow dust to slowly move in and lift the spring and move in between the two surfaces.

[Frank1940]

More as a point of interest then anything.  The "bump"  is .014"  high and .050"  wide.  The plastic connector housing is .014" thick.  Evidently, that bump is suppose to compress the springs so that the plastic part of the male insert will be against the plastic surface of the female connector. (The springs deform into a 'well' so they don't actually bottom out.)  This controls the contact force as well as providing some friction to hold the two parts together.