The Power Supply Thread


dgaschk

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Here's a wacky idea for a combined UPS and PSU.  It's called a car battery  ::)  12 volts (approx), tapped at 4 cells for 5v (approx) with a decent charger on it.  Anybody tried it?

 

After all, our UPS is a 12 volt battery, run through an inverter to produce 230VAC (in Thailand) then the PSU steps it down to 12volts AC, rectifies it to DC and smooths it to nearly as good as a car battery, all that inefficiency...

 

Edit: You mean tapped at 2 cells or maybe 3 cells for around 5V (though 3 is closer to 6.3V, a bit high) - each cell in a lead-acid battery is about 2.2V as opposed to NiCd or NiMH which are 1.2V per cell.  I just didn't want to purvey confusion in this matter  ;D

 

I've thought about this very thing more than once, as all that inefficiency does wear on my techie-type brain... but in the end, it comes down to these important considerations:

 

Hard drives want 12V, and the ATX spec usually stipulates 5% either way (so max 12.6V), BUT a 12V lead-acid car battery that has a no-load voltage BELOW 12.6V is in need of a recharge.  This helps prevent premature battery failure due to sulphation inside the cells, which occurs in a harmful, not-easily-reversible way when the cell voltage drops below 2.1 volts for an extended period of time (a couple days, or longer).

 

12V car batteries usually output around 12.75 volts when fully charged and under moderate load, but when you put a charger on the battery, it's minimally 13.2V and optimally somewhere around 13.7V or 13.8V, but chargers can put out higher voltages for shorter periods of time, and the battery will still be safe.  But whatever the charger voltage is, this is what your hard drives would see, too, and for my comfort this is a voltage range too far away from the expected.

 

As 12V lead-acid batteries discharge under load, they can go as low as about 10.8V before needing a recharge. (Any lower and permanent damage to the cells becomes increasingly likely, though it does not happen instantly.)  Again, 10.8V is a bit too low for my liking, though I am confident many hard drives would function adequately on even this low a voltage.

 

So really, what is needed is a DC-to-DC converter, which is a device that takes the battery/charge voltage and chops it into AC-waveform-like pieces, raises the voltage to some higher-than-needed value in order to be able to convert it back to DC at the appropriate (12V) value using a DC voltage regulator circuit.

 

And if you're gonna go that way (which has been done - look for computer power supplies designed to run from automobile power) then there's really not much difference in going from 120V/230V down to 12V inside a standard PC power supply.

 

Yup, it's inefficient... but transmitting 12V DC down power lines to everyone's homes is orders of magnitude MORE inefficient than the way it is done now, so we live with it.  :)

 

 

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I did,  and I get a mix bag

from "GREATE PSU"  to "AVOID LIKE PLAGUE"

 

hence my dilemma :-)

 

the review from Amazone  3-star average "http://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Certified-Modular-Active-TRX-750M/product-reviews/B00305O9S6/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1"

 

"This is a very very loud power supply. When taxed it will often squeal to the point where head phones and explosions wont cover the sound. It also works poorly under heavy loads and will shut down or cause erratic behavior.

 

Do not buy this product."

 

 

"I like Thermaltake as I had an old Tough Power 550W PSU from them in the past, along with a Thermaltake Shark case. I had went through a couple of these 750W modular PSU's and I have had nothing but bad luck with them as they gave off loud capacitor whines under full loads. After the second one I just got a refund and went with a Corsair HX 750W modular PSU and couldn't be happier. I probably just got the luck of bad apples in the Thermaltake bunch..."

 

 

and this is one of the good onec ?!?!

"i bought this about a year ago to use it with a core 2 quad and a gts 250 i upgrade my pc to a i5 760 and a gtx 460, so far this power supply is doing it so good i think is because my entire rig dont use more than 500 watts wich it gives me a lot of headroom, i've been reading on the internet about the problems of the TR2 RX 750w and from what i know when you use more than 620 watts of this power supply is when all the problems start, im gonna upgrade my gtx 460 to a gtx 570 and i will edit this to tell if im having problems with the power supply

 

EDIT: bought a GTX 570 and the powersupply started making a annoying noise couldn't even play with my headphones a single game because the noise is so loud and annoying that it force me to sell it and buy a corsair GS600, now i have no problems and no noise in my machine. this powersupply is a waste of money

 

im keeping the 5 starts rating because ive use it for over a year and it only gives me this issue when i started using more than 550 watts."

 

 

 

and this one is from NewEgg "http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=17-153-136&SortField=0&SummaryType=0&Pagesize=100&PurchaseMark=&SelectedRating=1&VideoOnlyMark=False&VendorMark=&IsFeedbackTab=true&Keywords=%28keywords%29#scrollFullInfo"

 

"Cons: After two days the first power supply faulted out and stopped working. took me a week to get it's replacement. the replacement was DOA"

 

"-It broke 20 days after purchase"

 

"I had purchased this in June of this year and it was throwing around some odd voltages causing my computer to overheat and freeze. I had replaced it with a Corsair PSU and now my computer runs perfect. Recently i had RMA'd the ThermalTake PSU so that i could put the new one into a new computer that i am building. You would think that ThermalTake actually cared about their Quality Control, but apparently not. What arrived was a Dead on Arrival eRMA. Not only do i have to mail back both faulty Power Supply Units, i also have to pay for the shipping as well!

 

5 years ago the quality of products was a lot better than it is now. I am getting sick and tired of these DOA cheap chinese knockoff products. I will no longer purchase anything from ThermalTake."

 

 

 

found this 3 in local microcenter still can not decide

 

"http://www.microcenter.com/search/compare_products.phtml?search_id=c8617bba2770aaac9d39a984040f37ef"

 

 

 

PC Power & Cooling Silencer 760 Watt ATX Power Supply  $99.99

OCZ Technology ZS Series 750 Watt ATX Power Supply    $94.99

Diablotek UL Series 775 Watt ATX Power Supply              $89.99

 

 

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thanks prostuff1, but I am trying to keep all local, so

will need to choose one of the available in my local PC store.

 

I think I will go with "PC Power & Cooling "  one.  it is actually cheaper then "Thermaltake" and gets a very good reviews all over I looked...

 

 

or may by "Diablotek UL Series 775 Watt ATX Power Supply"  but it is like $20 more locally and I am not sure they beat the price here.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I am afraid now that I have been reading this thread.  I have a Seasonic S12II-500 powering my UnRAID rig:

http://www.seasonicusa.com/S12II.htm

 

And if I can understand things correctly, this supply has split +12V outputs, each rated 17A.

 

If I were to guess, I'd think that one rail is for motherboard, and the other for molex/SATA power.

 

But I have 15 (now 16 as I just added a cache drive) drives spinning on this supply without a hiccup.  Is this supply really that good, or have I been ignoring the obvious, and therefore need to order a new one before I jump ahead to all 7200rpm drives?

 

At the moment, my array consists of all 2TB drives, 9 of which are Hitachi HDS72302, three WD greens and three ST2000DL003 drives.  Seems to me I've already gone past the point of sanity  ???

 

 

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thanks prostuff1, but I am trying to keep all local, so

will need to choose one of the available in my local PC store.

 

I think I will go with "PC Power & Cooling "  one.  it is actually cheaper then "Thermaltake" and gets a very good reviews all over I looked...

 

 

or may by "Diablotek UL Series 775 Watt ATX Power Supply"  but it is like $20 more locally and I am not sure they beat the price here.

 

 

Don't be cheap on your power supply. I have an Seasonic X660 and has been the best power supply I have ever purchased. I bet it is the most important component in a build.

 

 

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I am afraid now that I have been reading this thread.  I have a Seasonic S12II-500 powering my UnRAID rig:

http://www.seasonicusa.com/S12II.htm

 

And if I can understand things correctly, this supply has split +12V outputs, each rated 17A.

 

If I were to guess, I'd think that one rail is for motherboard, and the other for molex/SATA power.

 

But I have 15 (now 16 as I just added a cache drive) drives spinning on this supply without a hiccup.  Is this supply really that good, or have I been ignoring the obvious, and therefore need to order a new one before I jump ahead to all 7200rpm drives?

 

At the moment, my array consists of all 2TB drives, 9 of which are Hitachi HDS72302, three WD greens and three ST2000DL003 drives.  Seems to me I've already gone past the point of sanity  ???

 

 

 

You are correct, you have a split rail PSU with 17A on each rail.  Generally one rail powers the CPU and GPU and the other powers the motherboard, fans, and HDDs.  Leave 3A for the motherboard and fans.  That means you have 14A to power all of your drives.  Allocate 2A for each green drive and 3A for each 7200 RPM drive.  I'm not sure about your Hitachi drives, are they green?  If so, then you should have about 15X2A = 30A.  If they are 7200 RPM then you'll have (9X3A) + (6X2A) = 39A.  Either way, your PSU is definitely under-powered and you should look into upgrading it immediately.

 

I'm surprised that your server still boots with that PSU.  There are a few factors that could be at play.  First, some PSU manufacturers advertise their power supplies as split rail when they are actually single rail because split rail is more attractive to gamers or people who have lots of PCI/PCIe cards.  I didn't think that Seasonic was in this practice, but maybe they are.  Second, the WD Greens actually use about 1.5A instead of 2A, they boast the lowest power consumption of all green drives.  Even still, that only saves you 1.5A total, which doesn't account for the 13A (or larger) gap that you currently appear to have.  I still recommend assuming the WD Greens pull 2A just so you have a bit of overhead.

 

Best of luck!

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Just realized I'm probably pushing the limits of my CX430 with 9 green drives and 2 7200RPM drives, especially as I have 1 more of each ready to be added.  The CX500 that was supposed to replace it may be DOA, the main server does absolutely nothing when it's attached and the test server seems quite unreliable with it.  Luckily the server doesn't have anything else drawing a lot of power, just a Sempron CPU, PCI NIC and a IBM BR10i controller. 

 

Assuming it's still a while until I can get the new PSU, is it a problem to keep using the CX430? As long as the server is running is running and I don't try and reboot it too many times it shouldn't be near it's max capacity, right?

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thanks prostuff1, but I am trying to keep all local, so

will need to choose one of the available in my local PC store.

 

I think I will go with "PC Power & Cooling "  one.  it is actually cheaper then "Thermaltake" and gets a very good reviews all over I looked...

 

 

or may by "Diablotek UL Series 775 Watt ATX Power Supply"  but it is like $20 more locally and I am not sure they beat the price here.

 

 

Don't be cheap on your power supply. I have an Seasonic X660 and has been the best power supply I have ever purchased. I bet it is the most important component in a build.

 

 

 

 

it's not that cheap.  the price is $159

it is on sale now for $90 + mail in rabate $20.00 in microcenter.

 

80 Silver certified.

single rail, with 62A rating

 

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0358411

 

 

 

Drive/Power Connectors

Modular No

ATX Connector 20+4-pin

ATX 12V Connector 1 x 4+4-pin

Graphics Connector 2 x 6-pin, 2 x 6+2-pin

Molex Connector 7

SATA Connector 8

Floppy Connector 1

Power Specifications

PFC Active

Efficiency Certification 80 PLUS Silver Certified

Efficiency 88% at Typical Load

Input Voltage AC 90V/264V

Input Frequency Range 47Hz/63Hz

Input Current 10A @ 110VAC / 10A @ 240VAC

Hold-up Time 20ms minimum

Load Range +3.3V@24A; +5V@30A; +12@62A; [email protected]; +5VSB@3A

+12V Rails 1

Combined +12V Rating 760

Protection Over Voltage Protection, Over Current Protection, Over Temperature Protection

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Just realized I'm probably pushing the limits of my CX430 with 9 green drives and 2 7200RPM drives, especially as I have 1 more of each ready to be added.  The CX500 that was supposed to replace it may be DOA, the main server does absolutely nothing when it's attached and the test server seems quite unreliable with it.  Luckily the server doesn't have anything else drawing a lot of power, just a Sempron CPU, PCI NIC and a IBM BR10i controller. 

 

Assuming it's still a while until I can get the new PSU, is it a problem to keep using the CX430? As long as the server is running is running and I don't try and reboot it too many times it shouldn't be near it's max capacity, right?

 

Your PSU has 28A to power the hard drives, motherboard, and fans.  Assume 3A for the motherboard and fans.  Your drives currently pull 24A (18 for the green drives, 6 for the 7200 RPM drives).  If some of your green drives are Western Digital drives, then they actually use a bit less power (1.5A instead of the standard 2A).  If there are no WD drives in your server, then you are currently using 27 of your 28 available amps.  Adding one more of each type of drive is a total of 5A, which brings you to a total of 32A, which is definitely over the limit for your PSU.  I would definitely hold off on adding any more drives until you get your replacement CX500.  If you are using a lot of WD drives, then there's a good chance you can get away with adding one more green drive, but even then you might be pushing it.  If you are using a cache drive, consider removing it temporarily to make space for another data drive if you need the space before you are able to get the replacement PSU.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

You are correct, you have a split rail PSU with 17A on each rail.  Generally one rail powers the CPU and GPU and the other powers the motherboard, fans, and HDDs...  Either way, your PSU is definitely under-powered and you should look into upgrading it immediately.

 

I'm surprised that your server still boots with that PSU.  There are a few factors that could be at play.  First, some PSU manufacturers advertise their power supplies as split rail when they are actually single rail... Even still, that only saves you 1.5A total, which doesn't account for the 13A (or larger) gap that you currently appear to have.  I still recommend assuming the WD Greens pull 2A just so you have a bit of overhead.

 

Well, I ran my server with that Seasonic 'split rail' power supply (I have to think it was really a single as you suggest but I will not be disassembling and analyzing it to find out) for many months with 15, and recently 16 hard drives on it.  So that leaves about 1A per drive if it was truly a split rail supply.

 

So I can see two possibilities: the one you've mentioned about single rail even though the specs say otherwise, or the Seasonic supplies are really awfully darn good supplies! 

 

For info, I never had any separate spin-up groups, so every time I would come home with new files to transfer, I would spin all drives up at the same time, and every restart of the server of course saw the same task.  Somehow it worked well and faithfully even though I was oblivious to the current loads versus ratings.

 

I am more at ease now, however, as I bought a Seasonic X650 Gold with 54A of hard drive lovin under the hood.

 

I can't wait for Tom to up the max drive on UnRAID to 40 drives so I can give this supply a proper workout, too  ;D

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Hey just out of curiousity I am build a 12 Drive unRAID server and I am looking at either this http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_1110&products_id=18247 or http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_305&products_id=12402 power supplies. Should they be enough power ??? I am only intending to ever use 12 drives and a PCI video card.

 

I am not 100% sure but it looks like both of them are multy-Rail PSU

based on everything I read so far you are better off with a single-Rail PSU.

I do see many posters here with  multi-rail PSU however and most of them seams to work, so

good luck.

 

if you are not set on modular PSU check this one out "http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0358411"

it is made by OCZ , my rebate came from them.

maybe you can find a good deal on this one as well.

 

Microcenter is currently running a special on this one for 89.99  and the rebate is still good untill 12/4/2011

 

like I said  $70.00 for 760W 80 Silver Plus certified is not bad.

 

a heads up though:

#1 it is NOT modular

#2 have lots of cables, and cables are very stiff.

    all cables are sleeved in black mesh and very very stiff.

 

other then that I love this PSU.

 

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Hey just out of curiousity I am build a 12 Drive unRAID server and I am looking at either this http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_1110&products_id=18247 or http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15_305&products_id=12402 power supplies. Should they be enough power ??? I am only intending to ever use 12 drives and a PCI video card.

 

I am not 100% sure but it looks like both of them are multy-Rail PSU

based on everything I read so far you are better off with a single-Rail PSU.

I do see many posters here with  multi-rail PSU however and most of them seams to work, so

good luck.

 

if you are not set on modular PSU check this one out "http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0358411"

it is made by OCZ , my rebate came from them.

maybe you can find a good deal on this one as well.

 

Microcenter is currently running a special on this one for 89.99  and the rebate is still good untill 12/4/2011

 

like I said  $70.00 for 760W 80 Silver Plus certified is not bad.

 

a heads up though:

#1 it is NOT modular

#2 have lots of cables, and cables are very stiff.

    all cables are sleeved in black mesh and very very stiff.

 

other then that I love this PSU.

 

Since I can't locate that in Australia I might go for the Corsair TX-650

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Guys

 

Just wanting a little validation on my plans / calculations

 

I am already running unRAID on a little HP microserver but that was always an interim solution. As it fills up, I need to start firming up my long term plans and buying / blagging components.

 

I want to build a 16/17 drive server in a Fractal Design DEFINE XL case (10x3.5" drives as std then a 5in3 cage using up 3 of the 4 5.25" drive bays and finally an x-swing in the top bay to give me 17 drives. 15 drives will be data drives with one parity and one cache drive (may opt for SSD on the cache drive - 128GB should be fine, no?)

 

I have read the forum and see that you recommend allowing 2A per green drive and 3A for 7200rpm drives. so I was thinking 17 * 2A = 34A*12v = 408W + 60W for the mobo takes it to 468W for an "all green" server. But 17 * 3A = 51A*12v = 612W + 60W for the Mobo = 672W for a "not so green" server. On the basis that I will probably use green drives for both energy efficiency and noise reasons then I was thinking that a 550W PSU ought to be sufficient allowing for a bit of overhead. Since I am using my unRAID server to store media files, I can't imagine a situation where all drives would be spun up at the same time, save for perhaps doing a parity check or on boot.

 

So I am just wanting to know if you think 550W would be enough for my build or would it make sense to go for 650W and be safe?

 

I hear Corsair are pretty good quality and fairly reasonably priced. Any other recommendations for a decent / cheap PSU at this power point would of course be greatfully received.

 

Many thanks

 

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I want to build a 16/17 drive server in a Fractal Design DEFINE XL case (10x3.5" drives as std then a 5in3 cage using up 3 of the 4 5.25" drive bays and finally an x-swing in the top bay to give me 17 drives. 15 drives will be data drives with one parity and one cache drive (may opt for SSD on the cache drive - 128GB should be fine, no?)

 

I have read the forum and see that you recommend allowing 2A per green drive and 3A for 7200rpm drives. so I was thinking 17 * 2A = 34A*12v = 408W + 60W for the mobo takes it to 468W for an "all green" server. But 17 * 3A = 51A*12v = 612W + 60W for the Mobo = 672W for a "not so green" server. On the basis that I will probably use green drives for both energy efficiency and noise reasons then I was thinking that a 550W PSU ought to be sufficient allowing for a bit of overhead. Since I am using my unRAID server to store media files, I can't imagine a situation where all drives would be spun up at the same time, save for perhaps doing a parity check or on boot.

 

So I am just wanting to know if you think 550W would be enough for my build or would it make sense to go for 650W and be safe?

 

I recommend the Corsair 600W for your server (it happens to be on sale right now as well!).  It has 40A on a single +12V rail, which is allows 34A for your green drives and leaves 6A to power the motherboard and fans (which is plenty).

 

By the way, when shopping for power supplies there's really no point in calculating the wattage.  All decent power supplies will give you an amperage rating for the 12 V rail, so just look at that.  The wattage can be deceiving, best just to look at amperage and ignore the wattage.

 

Also, as you said, all of your drives will spin up on boot, power down, during a parity check, and during a rebuild from parity.  You need a PSU that can handle your server at full load.  Don't skimp on your PSU!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,

 

First, sorry for my English. 

 

I'm building my server case and I need to know what is the best (priceless but without electric problem) for a 32 HDD server, a big ~850w or two small ~500w (started with dual psu cable) ?

 

-32x SATA II Green Drive (500G, 1TB, 2TB) (Maybe some are not green ... but it will not exceed 2 or 3 of all the 32 drives)

-Desktop MB (MSI-7125)

-AMD CPU (Athlon 64)

-RAM 2G PC133

-1x DVD Drive

-Around 20x Fans and some led, cathode.

 

Thank you

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Hi,

 

First, sorry for my English. 

 

I'm building my server case and I need to know what is the best (priceless but without electric problem) for a 32 HDD server, a big ~850w or two small ~500w (started with dual psu cable) ?

 

-32x SATA II Green Drive (500G, 1TB, 2TB) (Maybe some are not green ... but it will not exceed 2 or 3 of all the 32 drives)

-Desktop MB (MSI-7125)

-AMD CPU (Athlon 64)

-RAM 2G PC133

-1x DVD Drive

-Around 20x Fans and some led, cathode.

 

Thank you

 

 

A good PSU for unRaid has the following:

 

1. Single 12 volt rail.  A subsequent figures refer to the 12 volt rail.

2. The minimum capacity that can power your build. Any more will just waste power. All drives will be in use during startup, shutdown, parity check, parity build, failed drive emulation, and drive rebuild, but startup requires the most power.

3. 2 amps (24 watts) per green drive and 3 amps (36 watts) per non-green drive on the 12 volt rail.

4. 5 amps (60 watts) for the motherboard on the 12 volt rail.

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WOW ... a quote!!!  >:(

 

I've already read this post (and many others as well), used a lot of their PSU calculator on the web, calculate all the stuff on a excel file and now you with this wonderful quote ... That does not say if It's better to take one or two PSU.  Is it so difficult to give a clear answer? Is that the help your community offers to new members?  I may be on the wrong forum, I will try to find my answers elsewhere (and maybe the software too).

 

I breaks my ass to read and write in English, if you can not say anything other than a quote that does not answer to my question, shut up next time, you will look less stupid!

 

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WOW ... a quote!!!   >:(

 

I've already read this post (and many others as well), used a lot of their PSU calculator on the web, calculate all the stuff on a excel file and now you with this wonderful quote ... That does not say if It's better to take one or two PSU.  Is it so difficult to give a clear answer? Is that the help your community offers to new members?  I may be on the wrong forum, I will try to find my answers elsewhere (and maybe the software too).

 

I breaks my ass to read and write in English, if you can not say anything other than a quote that does not answer to my question, shut up next time, you will look less stupid!

 

I am sure that dgaschk meant no disrespect or anything of that sort. He quoted the above as it points out what a good unRAID PSU is.

 

 

 

The above post is a little bit of an over reaction on your part.  The part he quote specifies the qualities of a good unRAID PSU.  Looking at the quote it does not mention that 2 would be better than one.  2 PSU's is almost never better than a single PSU, save for in the case of redundant PSU's and that is another ballgame entirely.

 

 

 

And your English is good, I know some people where English is there first language and you speak it better than them

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Hmmm maybe you're right, an overreaction and sorry for that.  I've receive bad news (again) from both Protocase and Mountain Mod, I have to starting to draw the 8th version of my server, I have a bit fed up.  I just can't wait to finally start this  f *** project !

 

Looking at the quote it does not mention that 2 would be better than one.  2 PSU's is almost never better than a single PSU, save for in the case of redundant PSU's and that is another ballgame entirely.

 

That was my question, ... ballgame ... not really for me so I'll take the option with a single PSU, I'll just have to "run" after the cables and adapters.  Thanks for your help!

 

And your English is good, I know some people where English is there first language and you speak it better than them

 

Thank you :-[  it's much longer for me, more difficult to find and explain what I want to say but surely easier for you to understand me (I hope).

 

 

 

Now, 1 PSU... Corsair 850HX was my first choice, although on the second post it said 33 HDD but it's surely without the MB and all other items. I've calculate that 32 HDD is equivalent to around 64A on the spin-up and if I add the MB, the fans and all ... it will be too just.

 

I found this one and need your advice:

 

1000 Watts (1100WPeak)

+12VDC @ 83A Single Rail

80 Plus® Gold Certified (over 90%)

5 year warranty

 

http://www.ocztechnology.com/ocz-z-series-1000w-power-supply.html

 

Only $117.39, until January 25th.

 

Thanks again and sorry for my bad temper  ;D

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