April 30, 201511 yr So apparently the issue is in the Realtek hardware/drivers and/or their interaction with the underlining OS. From the standpoint that this issue can be 'fixed' by replacing the on-board Realtek NIC, one could consider that this issue has been solved. I just wonder if the problem is only in the Realtek driver, or is the issue really with any on-board NIC that uses the CPU, or is the issue with on-board NIC's only present with low-power CPU's. There are still a number of questions that do require further investigation. The problem seems to surface only with high bitrate data streams (think ~40MB/sec) that can be common with straight BluRay rips with the highest picture quality. If you are successfully playing these types of files, it might provide some clues if you would post your setup including the device you are using to actually play these files. I would think that the issue is not with Realtek NIC's per se, but rather them in conjunction with a low powered CPU. Realtek NIC's are software driven whereas the Intel NICs are a purely hardware solution, and only utilize the CPU minimally. I can guarantee that Realtek NICs do not as a whole have this problem since one of my systems have one and has never experienced and stuttering / stalls at all.
April 30, 201511 yr I would think that the issue is not with Realtek NIC's per se, but rather them in conjunction with a low powered CPU. Realtek is known to be problematic with linux in general. We are not alone with this. Yes some folks with realtek may not have an issue, but that doesn't mean realtek isn't the problem. It is. Further proof is in the fact that in Franks testing, the cpu was never getting hammered and IO is not CPU intensive as a general rule of thumb. Had frank been transcoding media while this issue occurred, that'd be CPU related, but that's not the case here. I can guarantee that Realtek NICs do not as a whole have this problem since one of my systems have one and has never experienced and stuttering / stalls at all. In this forum alone there have been multiple instances of issues that were resolved simply by switching from realtek to Intel. There is a high degree of variance from realtek NIC to realtek NIC and they are just not as well tested as Intel on Linux systems.
April 30, 201511 yr Author Realtek is known to be problematic with linux in general. We are not alone with this. Yes some folks with realtek may not have an issue, but that doesn't mean realtek isn't the problem. It is. Further proof is in the fact that in Franks testing, the cpu was never getting hammered and IO is not CPU intensive as a general rule of thumb. Had frank been transcoding media while this issue occurred, that'd be CPU related, but that's not the case here. I can guarantee that Realtek NICs do not as a whole have this problem since one of my systems have one and has never experienced and stuttering / stalls at all. There is a high degree of variance from realtek NIC to realtek NIC and they are just not as well tested as Intel on Linux systems. As a point of further clarification, my Test Bed Server has a Realtek RLT8111DL Chip and the Media Server has the Realtek RLT8111E Chip set. (Info from motherboard manuals.) Both have the same issue.
April 30, 201511 yr ... From the standpoint that this issue can be 'fixed' by replacing the on-board Realtek NIC, one could consider that this issue has been solved... My motherboard has an Intel NIC, but just thought I would speak up for anybody that might have a Realtek onboard but not have anyplace to put another NIC. The only expansion slot I have on my motherboard is already used by a SATA controller, so if I did need to add a NIC, I would be looking at replacing a lot of other stuff.
April 30, 201511 yr Author ... From the standpoint that this issue can be 'fixed' by replacing the on-board Realtek NIC, one could consider that this issue has been solved... My motherboard has an Intel NIC, but just thought I would speak up for anybody that might have a Realtek onboard but not have anyplace to put another NIC. The only expansion slot I have on my motherboard is already used by a SATA controller, so if I did need to add a NIC, I would be looking at replacing a lot of other stuff. A valid point! While the card only requires a PCI-E 1X slot, I can understand that many inexpensive boards have a very few slots of any kind!
April 30, 201511 yr So, for those of us with ITX builds with a Realtek integrated NIC and only one PCI-E slot that is occupied by a SATA controller, is this a viable option (USB 3.0 to gigabit Ethernet adapter)?: http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-Gigabit-Ethernet-Network-Adapter/dp/B0095EFXMC
April 30, 201511 yr I would think that the issue is not with Realtek NIC's per se, but rather them in conjunction with a low powered CPU. Realtek is known to be problematic with linux in general. We are not alone with this. Yes some folks with realtek may not have an issue, but that doesn't mean realtek isn't the problem. It is. Further proof is in the fact that in Franks testing, the cpu was never getting hammered and IO is not CPU intensive as a general rule of thumb. Had frank been transcoding media while this issue occurred, that'd be CPU related, but that's not the case here. I can guarantee that Realtek NICs do not as a whole have this problem since one of my systems have one and has never experienced and stuttering / stalls at all. In this forum alone there have been multiple instances of issues that were resolved simply by switching from realtek to Intel. There is a high degree of variance from realtek NIC to realtek NIC and they are just not as well tested as Intel on Linux systems. Realtek is also very problematic with Solaris and open Solaris. I switched to only using Intel NIC's while I was working with Nas4Free and FreeNAS. craigr
April 30, 201511 yr Ok, good. Frank was kind enough to purchase an Intel based NIC and confirmed for me today that resolved his problems, but you already have an Intel based NIC, so I think your issue was different from his. Considering bonienl in this thread also has dune players in his setup (and not experiencing issues), I have a feeling you resolved your issue already by moving the SSD to the on board controller as opposed to the LSI. Not sure still why that should have made a difference, but as long as its working and you are happy, I'm happy. So far so good. I am really hoping I have finally isolated the problem. It has always been intermittent so only extended time will tell. Thanks, craigr
May 1, 201511 yr That's good to hear. Squid has had some good points as well with me over PM. One in particular stood out regarding on-board NIC's vs. add-on NICs. On-board NICs (that are part of the chipset, not soldered on PCI devices) tend to utilize the general purpose CPU a lot. In Frank's case, this would be with the Realtek NIC. Given his very low-end CPU combined with a relatively troublesome NIC manufacturer (Realtek is not known for high-quality Linux driver support), this could have made for an unfriendly combination and resulted in some of his issues. By switching to a discrete PCI-based NIC, the card is much less stressful on the CPU as it has it's own chipset for most of it's processing. It's even possible if he bought an add-on Realtek card that may have worked too, so long as it had the hardware required to prevent the heavy burden on the CPU. So what's the lesson from all this? Quite simply, if you're having stuttering/playback issues and a Realtek onboard NIC, your best chance to remediate your issues in one shot would be with buying an add-on NIC of Intel brand. That said, it's not the ONLY possible solution. Another could be to upgrade your CPU. Another could be to purchase a discrete Realtek NIC. And yet another could be to adjust other network environment variables such as the router, switch, or cables. The truth of the matter is that diagnosing the EXACT CAUSE for a particular user's troubles in this regard can be mind-numbing. As such, it's best to handle these situations on a case-by-case basis.
May 1, 201511 yr That's good to hear. Squid has had some good points as well with me over PM. One in particular stood out regarding on-board NIC's vs. add-on NICs. On-board NICs (that are part of the chipset, not soldered on PCI devices) tend to utilize the general purpose CPU a lot. In Frank's case, this would be with the Realtek NIC. Given his very low-end CPU combined with a relatively troublesome NIC manufacturer (Realtek is not known for high-quality Linux driver support), this could have made for an unfriendly combination and resulted in some of his issues. By switching to a discrete PCI-based NIC, the card is much less stressful on the CPU as it has it's own chipset for most of it's processing. It's even possible if he bought an add-on Realtek card that may have worked too, so long as it had the hardware required to prevent the heavy burden on the CPU. So what's the lesson from all this? Quite simply, if you're having stuttering/playback issues and a Realtek onboard NIC, your best chance to remediate your issues in one shot would be with buying an add-on NIC of Intel brand. That said, it's not the ONLY possible solution. Another could be to upgrade your CPU. Another could be to purchase a discrete Realtek NIC. And yet another could be to adjust other network environment variables such as the router, switch, or cables. The truth of the matter is that diagnosing the EXACT CAUSE for a particular user's troubles in this regard can be mind-numbing. As such, it's best to handle these situations on a case-by-case basis. For best form with a server it really is prudent to just use an Intel NIC. You can get them cheaply on eBay used and it will quite possibly save you trouble down the road. So if you have an open PCI or PCIe slot I recomend just adding an Intel NIC and disabling your Realtek on board. Here is an eBay listing for an Intel PCIe at $10.75. http://www.ebay.com/itm/INTEL-82573L-Ethernet-Controller-Gigabit-1000M-Desktop-PCIe-Network-Adapter-Card-/131146745449?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e88f48669 Another with high and low profile mounts for $11.00. http://www.ebay.com/itm/INTEL-82573L-Ethernet-Controller-Gigabit-1000M-Desktop-PCIe-Network-Adapter-Card-/251677832311?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a992af477 Here is a PCI dual port Intel NIC for $16.50. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Chipset-82546-Dual-Port-Gigabit-8492MT-1-25G-Server-Adapter-Network-Card-/251824104047?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3aa1e2e26f And I spent less than five minutes looking at listings. Just get an Intel NIC if you can fit it in your system and you don't already have one on board. craigr
May 4, 201511 yr I made a discovery yesterday evening. If I am watching something using the unRAID server, and then someone else starts to watch something in another part of the house, if a spun down hard disc spins up for the new user, the system being watched will freeze while the new hard drive spins up. In other words, if another hard drive in the unRAID server spins up while the server is in use, the video and audio will freeze while the new hard drive spins up. Jon, I mentioned to you that when my system stalls it is exactly like what it looks like when a hard drive being watched has gone to sleep and then needs to spin up (like if I pause the video for longer than my spin down time is set to in unRAID). This started for me in B14 which is when you guys took out "standby" for SSD drives. I don't know for sure if that has anything to do with it, but "spinning down" SSD drives could be the cause of some of my issues? Is there any way to keep unRAID from freezing during the 10~15 seconds it takes to spin up another drive? I discovered this because I just installed LED's in my server for each of the three hard drive banks so I would always know which hard drives are in use. So there is an LED for the MB hard drives and one for each of the two SAS connections on the LSI board. craigr
May 4, 201511 yr Author If I am watching something using the unRAID server, and then someone else starts to watch something in another part of the house, if a spun down hard disc spins up for the new user, the system being watched will freeze while the new hard drive spins up. In other words, if another hard drive in the unRAID server spins up while the server is in use, the video and audio will freeze while the new hard drive spins up. Sorry, I could not confirm on my Media server (spec below). I was using BluRay ISO's and tried spinning up two different drives to watch a movie on each while watching a movie on a third one. I checked both before and after to verify that the drives were spun down before starting playback and up after starting. Of course, all of my SATA ports are on the MB.
May 4, 201511 yr I get video pauses sometimes even when browsing a folder via SMB (perhaps due to a drive spinning up). But this is nothing new--have experienced this since v5.
May 4, 201511 yr If I am watching something using the unRAID server, and then someone else starts to watch something in another part of the house, if a spun down hard disc spins up for the new user, the system being watched will freeze while the new hard drive spins up. In other words, if another hard drive in the unRAID server spins up while the server is in use, the video and audio will freeze while the new hard drive spins up. Sorry, I could not confirm on my Media server (spec below). I was using BluRay ISO's and tried spinning up two different drives to watch a movie on each while watching a movie on a third one. I checked both before and after to verify that the drives were spun down before starting playback and up after starting. Of course, all of my SATA ports are on the MB. Thanks for checking. craigr
May 4, 201511 yr I get video pauses sometimes even when browsing a folder via SMB (perhaps due to a drive spinning up). But this is nothing new--have experienced this since v5. What you describe I think is normal. What I am describing is this: watching a movie on a spun up hard drive. Then, if a different hard drive spins up for any reason, the hard drive being watched will have the video and audio freeze until the other hard drive spins all the way up. The unRAID tower seems to go into a pause mode while a hard drive spins up. craigr
May 4, 201511 yr What you describe I think is normal. What I am describing is this: watching a movie on a spun up hard drive. Then, if a different hard drive spins up for any reason, the hard drive being watched will have the video and audio freeze until the other hard drive spins all the way up. The unRAID tower seems to go into a pause mode while a hard drive spins up. craigr Actually, I think we're talking about the same thing. Let's say I'm watching a movie on disk 1. If I browse to a user share (including or not including disk 1), I usually get a pause on the movie. Deleting files while watching also seems to generate a pause for me.
May 4, 201511 yr What you describe I think is normal. What I am describing is this: watching a movie on a spun up hard drive. Then, if a different hard drive spins up for any reason, the hard drive being watched will have the video and audio freeze until the other hard drive spins all the way up. The unRAID tower seems to go into a pause mode while a hard drive spins up. craigr Actually, I think we're talking about the same thing. Let's say I'm watching a movie on disk 1. If I browse to a user share (including or not including disk 1), I usually get a pause on the movie. Deleting files while watching also seems to generate a pause for me. OK interesting. It does sound like we may be talking about the same thing. I wonder why this was never an issue before beta 14 for me. I don't normally do anything with the server while we are watching and we don't normally watch more than one thing at a time off the server, but sometimes... Next time (if it happens again) I am going to go straight to the web GUI and see if any hard drives are spun up that were not supposed to be in use. I wonder if this has been my server's problem all along since beta 14. I wonder what could be causing hard drives to spin up randomly. I thought it might have been "Cache Directories" but the problem remained even after I removed Cache Directories. craigr
May 5, 201511 yr What you describe I think is normal. What I am describing is this: watching a movie on a spun up hard drive. Then, if a different hard drive spins up for any reason, the hard drive being watched will have the video and audio freeze until the other hard drive spins all the way up. The unRAID tower seems to go into a pause mode while a hard drive spins up. craigr Actually, I think we're talking about the same thing. Let's say I'm watching a movie on disk 1. If I browse to a user share (including or not including disk 1), I usually get a pause on the movie. Deleting files while watching also seems to generate a pause for me. OK interesting. It does sound like we may be talking about the same thing. I wonder why this was never an issue before beta 14 for me. I don't normally do anything with the server while we are watching and we don't normally watch more than one thing at a time off the server, but sometimes... Next time (if it happens again) I am going to go straight to the web GUI and see if any hard drives are spun up that were not supposed to be in use. I wonder if this has been my server's problem all along since beta 14. I wonder what could be causing hard drives to spin up randomly. I thought it might have been "Cache Directories" but the problem remained even after I removed Cache Directories. craigr Under disk settings, set "poll_attributes" to 0 and after applying, let me know if you see the same behavior.
May 5, 201511 yr Thanks for your continued support Jon. Unfortunately I may have been wrong about my assertion that spinning discs up is causing the problem. I set "poll_attributes" to zero as you suggested and the problem did not occur when I would spin up or down any other discs. However, when I set "poll_attributes" back to 1800 the problem was still gone. The only way I can reproduce the problem today is if while playing a BD ISO movie and then starting a parity check. This causes all sorts of issues for a duration, but then everything goes back to normal. I don't think that one should expect the tower to be able to start a parity check without complications like this so I don't think it's indicative of my system's problems. I'll let you know if I can come up with any other data points. Thanks for your help. craigr
May 6, 201511 yr Thanks for your continued support Jon. Unfortunately I may have been wrong about my assertion that spinning discs up is causing the problem. I set "poll_attributes" to zero as you suggested and the problem did not occur when I would spin up or down any other discs. However, when I set "poll_attributes" back to 1800 the problem was still gone. The only way I can reproduce the problem today is if while playing a BD ISO movie and then starting a parity check. This causes all sorts of issues for a duration, but then everything goes back to normal. I don't think that one should expect the tower to be able to start a parity check without complications like this so I don't think it's indicative of my system's problems. I'll let you know if I can come up with any other data points. Thanks for your help. craigr Thank you for your continued diligence on this issue. It definitely helps when trying to track down problems.
May 16, 201511 yr Author Upgrade Test Bed Server today to v6rc1. That is the one that is still using the Realtek NIC. (The Media server has an Intel NIC card installed which had no issues to date!) I have only a few minutes for testing today but I did watch about ten-to-fifteen minutes of Lucy just a few minutes ago. In that period, I had one momentary audio dropout. With beta15, I normally would have had several video stalls and complete audio dropouts. The release candidate seems to have solved more than 95% of the problem. I will be doing more testing in the next few days.
May 16, 201511 yr Upgrade Test Bed Server today to v6rc1. That is the one that is still using the Realtek NIC. (The Media server has an Intel NIC card installed which had no issues to date!) I have only a few minutes for testing today but I did watch about ten-to-fifteen minutes of Lucy just a few minutes ago. In that period, I had one momentary audio dropout. With beta15, I normally would have had several video stalls and complete audio dropouts. The release candidate seems to have solved more than 95% of the problem. I will be doing more testing in the next few days. Gotta love it when folks test out these things and report back within < 24 hours of a posted release. Thank you Frank!!
May 17, 201511 yr Author I had a bit of extra time yesterday as the Wife and Daughter decided to go shopping. (They were actually relieved when I said I didn't want to go!) I watched about an hour and fifteen minutes of Lucy while they were gone. I can now say that what I said yesterday was an optimistic view. The following is a summary of my log: In that period there were nineteen separate instances of audio/video dropout, Sometimes both, sometimes audio only. (However, there could have a very short video dropout during the audio only dropouts that I missed if the action was stationary on the screen.) Of these nineteen, fifteen were both audio and video. The audio restarted on its own in all cases. This did not always happen with b15. I sometimes had to stop the resumed playback and rewind the stream to get the audio back. There were four separate instances where there were several dropouts in a very short period of time (say fifteen seconds or less). And believe it or not, I had three dropouts of both audio and video in the credit roll! While most of the dropouts were now very short, they are irritating to a good theater experience. I did check rc2 this morning and quickly found that it had the same problem as rc1! I did update my Media server (that is the one with Intel network card) to rc2 late last night. I watched a bit of a BluRay movie and it not have any issues. =========== I decided that I would upgrade the Test Bed sever with Intel network card in the near nurture. I checked online and found a used one at a good price.
May 18, 201511 yr Frank, and forum members, I have an UnRaid server I built in 2010 with an ASUS M4A785-M motherboard which was one of the highly recommended boards at that time. It has a Realtek 8112L onboard network chip. I have all my Blu-ray movies backed up to ISO and enjoy full menus on my Dune HD Smart D1. I'm running the latest 6.0-rc2 and have tried the latest Dune firmware's but rolled back a few because of other forum recommendations. I do have some very brief momentary pauses in audio and video, maybe three or four during a two hour movie. I would like to try an Intel network card to see if things clear up. I have not messed with the actual unix system since I built it a few years ago. Can you or someone please tell me how to disable the onboard Realtek network card and how to enable the PCI Intel card. I will order one today. Thanks, Tom
May 18, 201511 yr Frank, and forum members, I have an UnRaid server I built in 2010 with an ASUS M4A785-M motherboard which was one of the highly recommended boards at that time. It has a Realtek 8112L onboard network chip. I have all my Blu-ray movies backed up to ISO and enjoy full menus on my Dune HD Smart D1. I'm running the latest 6.0-rc2 and have tried the latest Dune firmware's but rolled back a few because of other forum recommendations. I do have some very brief momentary pauses in audio and video, maybe three or four during a two hour movie. I would like to try an Intel network card to see if things clear up. I have not messed with the actual unix system since I built it a few years ago. Can you or someone please tell me how to disable the onboard Realtek network card and how to enable the PCI Intel card. I will order one today. Thanks, Tom Just don't attach a network cable to the onboard. No need to disable the device in the bios or anything like that.
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