[FEATURE REQUEST] Differentiate between"files are on unprotected storage" types

[NAS]

Version 6.0.0

 

The shares page currently has an orange triangle to signify "Some or all files are on unprotected storage."

 

However there is a difference between files that are waiting to be processed onto protected storage by the mover script and those files on shares set to cache only.

 

Ideally we should differentiate these two data types symbolically.

[limetech]

Why?  Single click on the share tells you how it's configured.  It's very easy to make indicators useless by having too many states.  The idea is that one should be able to glance at the page from across the room and see all Green - if some other color shows up, now you have to investigate further.

[garycase]

Why?  Single click on the share tells you how it's configured.  It's very easy to make indicators useless by having too many states.

 

Agree !!  It's nice to have the triangle that notes there are some unprotected files, but the user should certainly know if he's configured a cache-only share (and the cache isn't a protected pool).    These indicators at one point weren't working right -- but they seem to be working perfectly now.    Tested it with a cache drive and it changes between the triangle and green circle depending on whether there's data in the cache.    I presume if I had a cache pool it would just always stay green.

 

But you can definitely have too many states ... then they become kinda useless.  I think just glancing at what's not green works fine.

 

 

[trurl]

Why?  Single click on the share tells you how it's configured.  It's very easy to make indicators useless by having too many states.

 

Agree !!  It's nice to have the triangle that notes there are some unprotected files, but the user should certainly know if he's configured a cache-only share (and the cache isn't a protected pool).    These indicators at one point weren't working right -- but they seem to be working perfectly now.    Tested it with a cache drive and it changes between the triangle and green circle depending on whether there's data in the cache.    I presume if I had a cache pool it would just always stay green.

 

But you can definitely have too many states ... then they become kinda useless.  I think just glancing at what's not green works fine.

I can confirm my cache-only shares with cache pool are always green.

[JonathanM]

For those that choose to remain on the single unprotected drive cache model, I'm afraid the constant appearance of the yellow triangle for even normal array operations may cause a "boy who cried wolf" situation. I'm not sure of a good way to solve this.

The idea is that one should be able to glance at the page from across the room and see all Green - if some other color shows up, now you have to investigate further.

A single cache drive with files yet to be moved, or cache only shares, is "normal" and shouldn't need to be investigated, but is currently yellow. Low disk space on the cache drive, or files that should have been moved but weren't because of some error, those conditions need to be investigated.

[gundamguy]

jonathanm just summerized my thoughts right as I was about to post.

 

I agree. If things are working as intended it shouldn't really be showing an "error" condition IMO.

[garycase]

...  If things are working as intended it shouldn't really be showing an "error" condition IMO.

 

Agree ==> HOWEVER, the yellow triangle is NOT an "error" condition.  It simply means "Some or all files are on unprotected storage."    In the case of a cache-only share being stored on an unprotected cache drive that is the normal condition ... NOT an error.

 

The user should certainly KNOW if he's storing data on a cache-only share ... and this indicator simply reminds him that the share is unprotected.    Don't like looking at it?  ... update the cache to a pool so it's protected 

 

 

[archedraft]

Don't like looking at it?  ... update the cache to a pool so it's protected 

 

or you could put a green circle sticker over top of the triangle on your monitor! (just don't scroll  )

[garycase]

Don't like looking at it?  ... update the cache to a pool so it's protected 

 

or you could put a green circle sticker over top of the triangle on your monitor! (just don't scroll  )

 

:)

 

... I think a cache pool is "slightly" better 

 

By the way, I think the cache pool is one of the nicer improvements in v6.  The primary reason I've not used cache drives in my servers is simply that I want files I copy to my fault-tolerant server to BE fault-tolerant when I copy them there.  With a cache pool I can now use a cache to speed up writes and that will still be true 

[NAS]

As above, one state looks like an error condition when it is not.

 

The triangle and color may not be intended to look like an error state but we have been taught by countless products to treat symbols like this as soft errors. This is not helped with the strong unprotected wording whiuch unless you think about it looks like an error.

 

Also it is the only place in the entire web GUI that tells you if running the mover is required and/or will move files.

 

For how I use this page the shared symbol doesnt work for me.

[garycase]

... the shared symbol doesnt work for me.

 

I don't see it as a "shared" symbol => it's a symbol with a very specific meaning -- i.e. "Some or all files are on unprotected storage."    That's it ... it means the same thing whether the reason they're on unprotected storage is because that's where you wanted them (e.g. a cache-only share) or they're simply cached until the mover runs and moves them to the protected array.

 

If someone is concerned about the "unprotected storage", then they should learn a bit more about their system => they may then decide to not cache their shares and/or to add a 2nd cache drive and set up a cache pool so the cache is fault tolerant.

 

[NAS]

I dont want to.... and I dont think we should be teaching users to get used to ignoring soft errors/warnings. Thats what we are ultimately doing here since for certain configs the symbol will be persistent.

 

Also It is a shared symbol since it is a single symbol representing two different configuration states, one which "should self heal" the other has been configured not to. I can see what you are saying but its just a different user usage case.

 

Or put another way. Users shouldn't have to go to a manual and the forum to work out wtf this is about. This should be "one glance just get it stuff". None of the big boys would do it this way. For instance a yellow triangle on my EMC sans would never mean "its fine ignore it"

 

Edit: travelling cant be to detailed this now.

[garycase]

... Also It is a shared symbol since it is a single symbol representing two different configuration states, one which "should self heal" the other has been configured not to. I can see what you are saying but its just a different user usage case.

 

I'd agree IF it was used for two different states of the SAME share ... but that's not the case.  It ALWAYS means exactly the same thing ... "Some or all files are on unprotected storage".      For a cache-only share when the cache drive isn't a protected pool,  that will always be the case ... but a user should certainly know if he's configured cache-only shares => and this simply reminds him that those aren't protected.    For other shares that are cache-enabled, it simply notes when you have files that haven't yet been moved to the protected array.    But the meaning of it is completely consistent.  As I noted earlier, if a user doesn't realize that files on the cache aren't protected, this simply reminds them of that.  And if that's a concern, simply adding another cache drive and creating a pool will result in the symbol ALWAYS being the little green circle you like 

 

 

[gundamguy]

...  If things are working as intended it shouldn't really be showing an "error" condition IMO.

 

Agree ==> HOWEVER, the yellow triangle is NOT an "error" condition.  It simply means "Some or all files are on unprotected storage."    In the case of a cache-only share being stored on an unprotected cache drive that is the normal condition ... NOT an error.

 

The user should certainly KNOW if he's storing data on a cache-only share ... and this indicator simply reminds him that the share is unprotected.    Don't like looking at it?  ... update the cache to a pool so it's protected 

 

I hear you and agree files on the cache are not inherently an error condition.

 

However most of us have been conditioned to see yellow triangles as signifiers of that there is an non-critical issue that should be looked at.

 

If this is normal behavior and performing as intended I don't understand why it's shown with a symbol that we are conditioned to believe signifies that something non-critical needs investigating.

 

Right now it basically says "Caution! Everything is working properly!"

 

What I would like to see is a better system which only shows a warning symbol if something went wrong, like mover failed or files were not moved properly according to the mover schedule. Perhaps even something that said the time of the last move, and time till next move? I don't know it seems like something that can be improved to give users better information so they know if they need to act on something or not.

 

[limetech]

It means "WARNING: if the wrong device Fails you may lose data."  Thought of in that context, the symbol is appropriate.

[RobJ]

I think what others are saying though is that they have the same Cache drive they have always had, and have chosen to continue with that, so there is nothing wrong with their setup.  The fact that it is now considered 'not fault tolerant' is worthy of a one-time notification, but should not be repeated.  They are now fully aware that a Cache Pool would be better, and are choosing to stay with what has always worked, and don't want to be warned about it every day.  Perhaps require a one time acknowledgement, a check box, and then it returns to green?  Or make it green if that is how user has set it up, no test for only one drive.  They usually do know from the education here about the advantages of a Cache pool.  The yellow triangle will only be for the presence of un-moved files.

[garycase]

The disadvantage of a cache drive has always been that it's not fault-tolerant.  v6 resolves that by providing the ability to use a protected cache pool => if you choose not to do that, then you still have the same disadvantage as before ... i.e. files on the cache are NOT protected.  That's ALL that the symbol means, so I don't really see where it's an issue.

 

However, perhaps a different symbol for cache-only shares vs. cached shares could be implemented.  I personally don't see the need ... and I would NOT make it a green ball, which has a completely different meaning with regard to shares (i.e. "everything's protected") ... but perhaps it could be a green triangle    [With a tool-tip that says "Unprotected cache-only share"]

 

[itimpi]

I think what others are saying though is that they have the same Cache drive they have always had, and have chosen to continue with that, so there is nothing wrong with their setup.  The fact that it is now considered 'not fault tolerant' is worthy of a one-time notification, but should not be repeated.  They are now fully aware that a Cache Pool would be better, and are choosing to stay with what has always worked, and don't want to be warned about it every day.  Perhaps require a one time acknowledgement, a check box, and then it returns to green?  Or make it green if that is how user has set it up, no test for only one drive.  They usually do know from the education here about the advantages of a Cache pool.  The yellow triangle will only be for the presence of un-moved files.

I am not sure I agree here.  What if for instance mover stops working correctly.  You would then get no indication that anything is wrong.  I am quite happy with the described behaviour as if I have added files it is a reminder that mover needs to be run (possibly manually if the files are important) to get to a protected state.  I would also in normal behaviour get used to seeing the icon start the day of green as all files have been moved to protected storage and then turn yellow during the day as new files are added that are not protected.  If it started the day of yellow then I know I should check things out.

 

What IS important to me is that errors are indicated in red as they indicate that I really MUST take some action.

 

I guess the proof is going to be as users get used to the system and provide feedback as to whether it is found to be confusing or not.

[JonathanM]

I am quite happy with the described behaviour as if I have added files it is a reminder that mover needs to be run (possibly manually if the files are important) to get to a protected state.  I would also in normal behaviour get used to seeing the icon start the day of green as all files have been moved to protected storage and then turn yellow during the day as new files are added that are not protected.  If it started the day of yellow then I know I should check things out.

Many people have cache only shares which keep the icon yellow constantly. I would be ok with changing the behaviour to ignore cache only shares, and only show yellow if there were unmoved files that should be moved with the next mover action.

[itimpi]

I am quite happy with the described behaviour as if I have added files it is a reminder that mover needs to be run (possibly manually if the files are important) to get to a protected state.  I would also in normal behaviour get used to seeing the icon start the day of green as all files have been moved to protected storage and then turn yellow during the day as new files are added that are not protected.  If it started the day of yellow then I know I should check things out.

Many people have cache only shares which keep the icon yellow constantly. I would be ok with changing the behaviour to ignore cache only shares, and only show yellow if there were unmoved files that should be moved with the next mover action.

That would make a lot of sense. 

[gundamguy]

It means "WARNING: if the wrong device Fails you may lose data."  Thought of in that context, the symbol is appropriate.

 

I agree with you in that context.

 

I'm not sure this needs to be a persistant warning when it comes to Cache-only shares, because ostensbily you are using your cache only share for plugins/docker apps and it's only housing data you are ok with losing. I agree with Gary that this shouldn't exactly be a Green Cricle either, as it's not the same condition.

[limetech]

It means "WARNING: if the wrong device Fails you may lose data."  Thought of in that context, the symbol is appropriate.

 

I agree with you in that context.

 

I'm not sure this needs to be a persistant warning when it comes to Cache-only shares, because ostensbily you are using your cache only share for plugins/docker apps and it's only housing data you are ok with losing. I agree with Gary that this shouldn't exactly be a Green Cricle either, as it's not the same condition.

 

The fact a share is cache-only does not necessarily mean it's not on 'protected' storage.  If you have 2-or-more-device cache pool, then your cache-only share is protected and gets a green ball.

[garycase]

The fact a share is cache-only does not necessarily mean it's not on 'protected' storage.  If you have 2-or-more-device cache pool, then your cache-only share is protected and gets a green ball.

 

I've mentioned that several times -- the "fix" to not wanting to see an indication that there are some files unprotected is to simply add another cache drive and create a pool      Then they'd never see the little yellow triangle at all  8)

 

I also don't see why it would be disturbing to see it if you have an unprotected cache and some cache-only shares => in fact the state of those shares is that they're ALWAYS unprotected, so it would be abnormal if they didn't show that.    Perhaps some folks aren't thinking about the fact this status is on a share-by-share basis.    Also, it is NOT in any way an "error" condition ... it's simply an informative status indicating some data isn't fault-tolerant.    For cache-only shares without a pool, that's always going to be the case;  for cached shares, that will automatically change when they're moved to the array.

 

[gundamguy]

The fact a share is cache-only does not necessarily mean it's not on 'protected' storage.  If you have 2-or-more-device cache pool, then your cache-only share is protected and gets a green ball.

Also, it is NOT in any way an "error" condition ... it's simply an informative status indicating some data isn't fault-tolerant.    For cache-only shares without a pool, that's always going to be the case;  for cached shares, that will automatically change when they're moved to the array.

 

I generally agree with what you've said but here are my comments.

 

If the goal is to be informative perhaps don't use the same symbol that on a different tab means there are problems you need to fix. This requires people to understand that in one context this symbol is bad news, but in another context is nothing serious at all.

 

I think cache pools are great, but there are legit reasons (limited drive bays, limited ports, need for all of your array slots) why people won't want or be able to do cache pools some times.

 

An ideal build would have a cache pool IMO.

[NAS]

...

If the goal is to be informative perhaps don't use the same symbol that on a different tab means there are problems you need to fix. This requires people to understand that in one context this symbol is bad news, but in another context is nothing serious at all. ...

 

Sums it up perfectly.