Looking for SAS/SATA HBA

[ssh]

I am looking for a SAS/SATA HBA to add between 4-8 ports to my home NAS, as I have used up all of the 6 SATA ports on my motherboard.

I have multiple pci/pci-e slots - as well as m.2 slots - free.

 

I was looking at SATA HBAs since they often are cheaper than their SAS counterparts (and since Ive also never used SAS before). This would also let me use SATA cables that I already have, instead of SAS->SATA cables which I would have to buy. However, I read a lot of bad things about Marvell chipsets (which most of them are) on this forum. 'JMicron' is often described as 'its alright...'. (Why) should I not go for these chipsets - or SATA HBAs? What's 'better' about SAS HBAs?

 

If I search for SAS HBAs, they seem quite expensive. Although a lot of refurbished / 2nd hand stuff is available (for cheaper), I don't feel very comfortable going for that when it comes to my personal data. Also, I do see a lot of different "numbers" (9201-16i vs 9201-16e, etc.) but they don't mean much to me so I find it kind of hard to determine what I'd need. And then I also read about still having to 'flash' a SAS HBA to 'it' mode so it works nicely with unraid.

 

What would you recommend to me?

 

If it helps; I'm planning on using them in my 'home' NAS (i3 7100 2c4t) with disks of up to 8TB (WD Red).

Edited March 8, 2020 by ssh

[opentoe]

3 hours ago, ssh said:

I am looking for a SAS/SATA HBA to add between 4-8 ports to my home NAS, as I have used up all of the 6 SATA ports on my motherboard.

I have multiple pci/pci-e slots - as well as m.2 slots - free.

 

I was looking at SATA HBAs since they often are cheaper than their SAS counterparts (and since Ive also never used SAS before). This would also let me use SATA cables that I already have, instead of SAS->SATA cables which I would have to buy. However, I read a lot of bad things about Marvell chipsets (which most of them are) on this forum. 'JMicron' is often described as 'its alright...'. (Why) should I not go for these chipsets - or SATA HBAs? What's 'better' about SAS HBAs?

 

If I search for SAS HBAs, they seem quite expensive. Although a lot of refurbished / 2nd hand stuff is available (for cheaper), I don't feel very comfortable going for that when it comes to my personal data. Also, I do see a lot of different "numbers" (9201-16i vs 9201-16e, etc.) but they don't mean much to me so I find it kind of hard to determine what I'd need. And then I also read about still having to 'flash' a SAS HBA to 'it' mode so it works nicely with unraid.

 

What would you recommend to me?

 

If it helps; I'm planning on using them in my 'home' NAS (i3 7100 2c4t) with disks of up to 8TB (WD Red).

For a solid inexpensive card you can go with the DELL H310 PERC. I have a few of them. They are just basic cards. I had to flash mine with the LSI firmware which worked fine.

[Frank1940]

Also see here:

 

     https://forums.unraid.net/topic/69018-sata-controller-replacement-question-and-advice/?tab=comments#comment-630097

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Frank1940

[Dissones4U]

4 hours ago, ssh said:

Although a lot of refurbished / 2nd hand stuff is available (for cheaper), I don't feel very comfortable going for that when it comes to my personal data.

This is a little off topic but worth mentioning, you should feel totally comfortable experimenting with your setup because your array should never be your only copy of irreplaceable data. Unraid provides data redundancy which in and of itself is not backup, in fact, data redundancy is only meant to ensure high availability. Unraid will never protect you from all types of data loss (think file system corruption) and in no way constitutes a backup if it's your only copy. To take it a step further I'd suggest that redundancy is far less important for most home users than a legitimate second copy of critical data. Just an FYI...

[Frank1940]

4 hours ago, ssh said:

Although a lot of refurbished / 2nd hand stuff is available (for cheaper), I don't feel very comfortable going for that when it comes to my personal data.

I might point that most of this 'second hand stuff' came out of servers that were manufactured by folks like Dell and IBM and often used by fortune 500 companies in their server farms.  This equipment became surplus when the servers not longer had the storage capability (or CPU capacity)  to meet their current needs.  Their solution is to simply replace the servers in mass.  (Upgrades are probably more expensive than replacement!)  They are then sold to companies that salvage the parts and offer them for sale.

[ssh]

Thanks for the suggestions. I can find 2/8 port SAS cards (second hand) for around 75€.

What would be the benefit of going for these cards over new and cheaper SATA HBA cards?

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by ssh

[Frank1940]

This is what I understand. 

 

Virtually no one is using Unraid with a pure SAS solution.  The difference is not in the controller but in the cabling and drives.  (Running a pure SAS solution requires SAS drives!)  However, the LSI chip sets can run programmed to do many different things. (Think of them as being a SOC!)  The firmware that LSI provided on their cards often allowed the cards to implement a hardware RAID solution.  (That is the reason that there were so many LSI card  part numbers as each part number had firmware that had a different RAID implementations.)  What Unraid requires is that the card be capable of running in what is called the  IT Mode.  Many of the used cards are not capable of running this mode as removed the server.  They have to cross-flashed (or flashed) to the IT Mode.  (The Dell and IBM cards are in this category.)  You can do it yourself or purchase the card from a vendor who has already done it.  (I, personally, have never cross-flashed a card.  I would rather pay a a few extra dollars and let someone else do it.)

 

One note of caution, I believe that there are some LSI based cards that either (1) can't be cross-flashed or (2) no one has found the way to do it. 

 

BTW, years ago, SAS drives had spindle speeds as high as 15,000 rpm which meant their data transfer rates were faster than for any SATA drive of that time.  Plus, the SAS drives were suppose to have a higher quality level.  (I believe that this concept resulted in the Enterprise class of SATA drives that you can purchase today.)

 

The problem with new LSI cards is this.  (LSI no longer exists.  It is now a part of Broadcom.)  Broadcom is still making a few LSI branded cards.  However, they are also selling the chip sets.  These chip sets are then purchased by board manufacturers.  They assemble boards using these chip sets and other components.  The art work on these boards are made to look identical to the original LSI board.  (Some even go so far as to duplicate the paper stickers of the original LSI product!)  So essentially, it is a counterfeit board of dubious quality--  it could be superb-- or it could be trash.  So if you buy a new board, buy the seller...

[ssh]

49 minutes ago, Frank1940 said:

Virtually no one is using Unraid with a pure SAS solution.  The difference is not in the controller but in the cabling and drives.  (Running a pure SAS solution requires SAS drives!)  However, the LSI chip sets can run programmed to do many different things. (Think of them as being a SOC!)  The firmware that LSI provided on their cards often allowed the cards to implement a hardware RAID solution.  (That is the reason that there were so many LSI card  part numbers as each part number had firmware that had a different RAID implementations.)  What Unraid requires is that the card be capable of running in what is called the  IT Mode.  Many of the used cards are not capable of running this mode as removed the server.  They have to cross-flashed (or flashed) to the IT Mode.  (The Dell and IBM cards are in this category.)

Sounds like most of the features that make a SAS card expensive (reprogrammable, hardware RAID, etc) are things I won’t even be using when using unraid, since it requires the card to run in ‘it’ mode (‘dumb’ mode?).

 

Why would I not just go for a simple ‘dumb’ SATA HBA? It can’t do hardware raid, it’s not programmable, but I don’t need that? Or am I missing something here?

[ssh]

Also, I’ve once been told that multiple SATA HBAs in one unraid system are not supported (something with Linux not being able to distinguish between them). Where as multiple SAS HBAs are.
 

I’m not planning in using more than one add-in card atm, but I’m curious if there is any truth to this?

[Frank1940]

The LSI chip set  (and their board design) has proven to be the most consistent, reliable solution for use with Unraid.   The Marvell chip set, as an example, has had problems for the past few years with unreliable operation.  Remember the LSI chip set was designed to be used in a RAID environment.   Many of the other chip sets were designed to add more SATA ports to a PC.  IF you think about it, in this use case, only one drive is (usually) being accessed at a time.  Any chip set designed for a RAID environment has to be designed with the design parameter that all drives can (and will) be active simultaneously.  The same can be said for the board design. 

 

There really aren't that many chip sets out there.  There are just of a lot of manufacturers (mostly all in China) who use those few chip sets to make boards.

 

You are welcome to try another solution but be aware if you have a problem, the advice you will get is to use a board with an LSI chip set...

[JorgeB]

24 minutes ago, ssh said:

Why would I not just go for a simple ‘dumb’ SATA HBA?

Mostly because there aren't good 8+ ports SATA controllers.

[ssh]

13 minutes ago, johnnie.black said:

Mostly because there aren't good 8+ ports SATA controllers.

I don’t need that many ports at this time. I read in this ticket about a 5 port SATA hba (JMB585 chipset). That one seems fine?

 

Edited March 9, 2020 by ssh

[JorgeB]

8 minutes ago, ssh said:

That one seems fine?

Yep, I have one.

[itimpi]

1 hour ago, ssh said:

Also, I’ve once been told that multiple SATA HBAs in one unraid system are not supported (something with Linux not being able to distinguish between them). Where as multiple SAS HBAs are.

This does not seem to be an issue with the LSI based chipsets.    Lots of Unraid users have more than one in their system.

[ssh]

20 hours ago, opentoe said:

For a solid inexpensive card you can go with the DELL H310 PERC. I have a few of them. They are just basic cards. I had to flash mine with the LSI firmware which worked fine.

I found this one a Dell H310 (flashed to IT mode) on ebay for around 65 euros including shipping (which would be around the same I'd have to pay for that 5 port SATA card (although new). Guess this card is the better option then...

 

Anything I need to look out for? Better to go for LSI one (like this one? same price)? I heard that there are some fake ones going around but not sure how to know if the one i buy/receive is genuine

[Hoopster]

4 minutes ago, ssh said:

Anything I need to look out for?

If you get the Dell H310 (or any other LSI chipset card) make sure you have forward SFF-8087 to SATA cables. The reverse breakout cables look the same so you can't just go on appearance.  You need to make sure you are buying forward breakout cables.

 

I have a Dell H310 in IT mode with 8 SATA drives connected to it with two forward breakout cables and it works extremely well with unRAID.

[ssh]

Just found online that the Dell Perc h310 doesnt work with all drives. Not sure what it means but "Perc H310 works with 512n/e and not 4kn drives". I dont know what I have though.

Edited March 9, 2020 by ssh

[Hoopster]

12 minutes ago, ssh said:

Perc H310 works with 512n/e and not 4kn drives

That refers to the sector size on the drive.  It has nothing to do with the drive itself, just how it is formatted.  You should not have a problem with drives formatted in unRAID.  All of my drives work without issue with the Dell H310.

 

Here's a snip from one of my drive properites.  Notice that it has 512 byte logical sectors even though physically it has 4K sectors.  This is 512e (emulated).

 

 

https://www.datacore.com/blog/stories-from-the-bit-shift-or-what-means-512n-vs-512e-vs-4kn-vs-flash-pages/

Edited March 9, 2020 by Hoopster

[ssh]

3 minutes ago, Hoopster said:

That refers to the sector size on the drive.  It has nothing to do with the drive itself, just how it is formatted.  You should not have a problem with drives formatted in unRAID.  All of my drives work without issue with the Dell H310.

 

Here's a snip from one of my drive properites.  Notice that it has 512 byte logical sectors.

 

 

 

https://www.datacore.com/blog/stories-from-the-bit-shift-or-what-means-512n-vs-512e-vs-4kn-vs-flash-pages/

A thanks, mine says that as well

[ssh]

I am happy to say I just bought a second hand H310

On 3/9/2020 at 10:08 PM, Hoopster said:

If you get the Dell H310 (or any other LSI chipset card) make sure you have forward SFF-8087 to SATA cables. The reverse breakout cables look the same so you can't just go on appearance.  You need to make sure you are buying forward breakout cables.

I am searching for the right cables now, and I've found a few SFF-8087 to 4x sata cables between 15 and 40 euros. Anything I need to look out for specifically (except that they are forward breakout cables :))?

[Frank1940]

IF you can, get the 0.5m cables if they are long enough for your case.  The 1m cables can make of a real cabling mess in a smaller case. 

[Hoopster]

45 minutes ago, Frank1940 said:

IF you can, get the 0.5m cables if they are long enough for your case.  The 1m cables can make of a real cabling mess in a smaller case. 

Absolutely!  I have the 0.5 meter cables in my case and even those are too long.  I have a lot of excess cable to tie up out of the way.  I can't imagine messing around with 1 meter cables in most computer cases; even some larger ones.

[ssh]

I have everything installed in the server right now, and it works perfect  Currently I have only 1 SFF-8087->SATA(s) cable connected to it, as well as only one drive, because thats all I need for now.

I have set a fan to blow over the H310 to cool it down as it gets quite hot.

 

The card shows up as "[1000:0072] 01:00.0 Serial Attached SCSI controller: Broadcom / LSI SAS2008 PCI-Express Fusion-MPT SAS-2 [Falcon] (rev 03)" in 'System Devices' in unraid. Is that correct?

[JorgeB]

Yep.

[ssh]

33 minutes ago, johnnie.black said:

Yep.

Cool, thanks