Mihle Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 There are not that many blackouts every year here, but I have been considering one for a while. I just wonder, some say you have to replace them every 3-5 years, do they say that. Because it wears when it does its job? Wouldn't it then wear less if there doesn't happen that many blackouts? Couldn't you also just get a bigger one to get it to last longer? Quote Link to comment
glennv Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 You should not have to replace your UPS but just the battery . Typicaly the ups indicates when its time to do so. And then they are as good as new again. Quote Link to comment
ChatNoir Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 All UPS do not allow the battery change though. Those are generally a bit cheaper at first, but more expensive in the long term. Quote Link to comment
Vr2Io Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, ChatNoir said: All UPS do not allow the battery change though. Those are generally a bit cheaper at first, but more expensive in the long term. Just opposite, I never found a UPS design haven't replace battery feature. In fact it cost at first, then battery is long term running cost. Due to this behaviour, my current UPS were got from internet forum, people found it not working and give out free. My other UPS also a fault unit cost ~20USD and lucky just battery problem too. The 2nd unit still sitting as spare 3yr+ due to 1st unit still working by 3-4 yrs battery replacement. Edited October 8, 2020 by Vr2Io Quote Link to comment
ChatNoir Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 On a fixed battery UPS, once the battery dies, you have to buy the whole thing again. If you can replace the battery, the cost is much lower than a whole new unit. On a 5 or 10 year time, any gain made on the initial purchase is completly negated. Quote Link to comment
Mihle Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 hour ago, ChatNoir said: On a fixed battery UPS, once the battery dies, you have to buy the whole thing again. If you can replace the battery, the cost is much lower than a whole new unit. On a 5 or 10 year time, any gain made on the initial purchase is completly negated. Most people seem to say that they last 3-5 years before the batteries need to be changed, is that true no matter how many brownouts or blackouts happen or doesn't happen? Or can one a place where it doesn't happen much, can the batteries last longer if it doesn't? Also, would a UPS that is larger compared to what's actually needed make the batteries last longer? If I were to get one that the batteries is replacable, I should also check if I can actually buy batteries were I live. Quote Link to comment
JonathanM Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Mihle said: Most people seem to say that they last 3-5 years before the batteries need to be changed, is that true no matter how many brownouts or blackouts happen or doesn't happen? Or can one a place where it doesn't happen much, can the batteries last longer if it doesn't? Also, would a UPS that is larger compared to what's actually needed make the batteries last longer? If I were to get one that the batteries is replacable, I should also check if I can actually buy batteries were I live. They are VERY similar to automobile batteries. They typically last between 3-5 years, don't like extreme temperatures, don't like extreme discharges, don't like repeated deep discharges, can fail for no apparent reason sometimes. Configure your equipment to finish shutting down before the batteries drain below 50%, keep them at human comfortable temps, and you have the best chance of keeping them for as long as possible. Many name brand UPS's try to make you think the batteries are special, I have yet to find one that uses truly proprietary batteries, they all just add plastic bits and wire jumpers with strong double stick tape to generic batteries. If you have a local source for alarm panel batteries, they are generally the same. 1 Quote Link to comment
Michael_P Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 If the UPS uses MOVs for suppression, those do wear out Quote Link to comment
Mihle Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 4 hours ago, jonathanm said: They are VERY similar to automobile batteries. They typically last between 3-5 years, don't like extreme temperatures, don't like extreme discharges, don't like repeated deep discharges, can fail for no apparent reason sometimes. Configure your equipment to finish shutting down before the batteries drain below 50%, keep them at human comfortable temps, and you have the best chance of keeping them for as long as possible. Many name brand UPS's try to make you think the batteries are special, I have yet to find one that uses truly proprietary batteries, they all just add plastic bits and wire jumpers with strong double stick tape to generic batteries. If you have a local source for alarm panel batteries, they are generally the same. Worth noting that the power goes out maybe 3 times a year here, sometimes less. Also zero brownouts. Quote Link to comment
whipdancer Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 57 minutes ago, Mihle said: Worth noting that the power goes out maybe 3 times a year here, sometimes less. Also zero brownouts. Doesn't really make a difference. @jonathanm said it very well: Quote They are VERY similar to automobile batteries. They typically last between 3-5 years, don't like extreme temperatures, don't like extreme discharges, don't like repeated deep discharges, can fail for no apparent reason sometimes. Configure your equipment to finish shutting down before the batteries drain below 50%, keep them at human comfortable temps, and you have the best chance of keeping them for as long as possible. Just plan on needing to replace the battery in 3 years. That way, when it doesn't happen, you get a happy surprise. Quote Link to comment
Mihle Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 Just now, whipdancer said: Doesn't really make a difference. @jonathanm said it very well: Just plan on needing to replace the battery in 3 years. That way, when it doesn't happen, you get a happy surprise. But also, automobile batteries is used to turn on the car and spark plugs regulary while the UPS wouldn't, so it doesn't make sense to me. Are all UPSes really lead batteries? Quote Link to comment
whipdancer Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=0Hp_X-j5C4auswWO74XoDQ&q=how+long+do+home+ups+batteries+last&oq=how+long+do+home+ups+batter&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAxgAMggIIRAWEB0QHjIECCEQCjoOCC4QsQMQxwEQowIQkwI6CAguEMcBEKMCOggILhCxAxCDAToICAAQsQMQgwE6CwguELEDEMcBEKMCOgIIADoCCC46BQgAELEDOgsILhCxAxCDARCTAjoFCAAQyQM6CwgAELEDEIMBEMkDOggIABCxAxDJAzoKCAAQyQMQRhD7AVDzHVifXmCPaGgEcAB4AIABpwGIAa4TkgEEMjcuNJgBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab Quote Link to comment
JonathanM Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, Mihle said: But also, automobile batteries is used to turn on the car and spark plugs regulary while the UPS wouldn't, so it doesn't make sense to me. Are all UPSes really lead batteries? Automobile batteries are normally used in 2 ways, 1, to start the car, 2, to smooth out the power supplied by the alternator. If your car's spark plugs are running off of the battery, you are going to have a bad time in a few minutes. If things are working properly, starting the car takes a VERY tiny percent of the batteries capacity. If it's really cold out, and the car is in a poor state of tune, you may end up using a good portion of the battery before it starts, but you won't do that very often before you are replacing the battery. And yes, 99% of UPS batteries are SLA (sealed lead acid) Quote Link to comment
whipdancer Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Mihle said: Are all UPSes really lead batteries? No, not all. Just most. https://www.google.com/search?ei=3np_X6PNE42ItQXNmaugAg&q=what+kind+of+batteries+do+home+ups+use&oq=what+kind+of+batteries+do+home+ups&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAxgAMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAE6BAgAEEc6BQgAEJECOggIABCxAxCDAToLCC4QsQMQxwEQowI6DgguELEDEIMBEMcBEKMCOgUIABCxAzoICC4QxwEQowI6AggAOggIABDJAxCRAjoICC4QyQMQkwI6BQgAEMkDOgYIABAWEB46CQgAEMkDEBYQHjoFCCEQqwI6BwghEAoQoAE6CAghEBYQHRAeUOP-BliOxwdg5tIHaAhwAngAgAGOAYgBpBmSAQQzMy43mAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesgBCMABAQ&sclient=psy-ab Edited October 8, 2020 by whipdancer Quote Link to comment
Mihle Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 Why aren't more UPSes that exist with lithium batteries? They should last much longer from what I know about battery technology. Not sure if I want to get an UPS if it's only last 3-5 years. Quote Link to comment
Michael_P Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 4 hours ago, Mihle said: Why aren't more UPSes that exist with lithium batteries? They should last much longer from what I know about battery technology. Cost, and they're a pain in the rear to ship Quote Link to comment
Mihle Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Michael_P said: Cost, and they're a pain in the rear to ship People would be willing to pay twice the amount for batteries that have much longer lifespan, at least I would. Quote Link to comment
Michael_P Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 It wouldn't be twice the cost, it would be more like 5-10 times. Logistics is a key factor driving costs for all products - lithium batteries in that kind of density could never be shipped air, and limited in weight when shipping ground. Special circuitry would need to be incorporated into the design and a bunch of testing performed before it's even allowed to ship ground. It's just impractical for consumer goods. And that's before you factor in the cost of the battery itself. Quote Link to comment
sota Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 I've been a long term user of APC SmartUPS units, all the way back to the mid 90s. Heck I just "retired" a pair of units that have 1998 date codes on them; the electronics in them finally has worn out enough that they no longer accurately report battery life and power utilization figures. If you didn't mind them flashing and beeping for 90 minutes, they'd still power the load for that long. I did, since they talk to servers and tell them when to shut down. The number of batteries i've gone through on them is probably an impressive figure. Like many other things in this world, your cost of "consumables" (batteries) will far outstrip the cost of a good quality device, in the long term. Quote Link to comment
JonathanM Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Mihle said: Why aren't more UPSes that exist with lithium batteries? They should last much longer from what I know about battery technology. Not sure if I want to get an UPS if it's only last 3-5 years. Here you go. https://lithium-ion-ups.com/ Quote Link to comment
Mihle Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 So oversizing an UPS does not make it last longer, it's about max 5 years anyway? When do an UPS decide when it's time for the battery to be replaced? Btw, my NAS currently is idle around 40w ish, don't quite sure under load. Is it really worth getting an UPS for unRAID tho? I don't really run much else than Nextcloud and local storage on it where it's currently mostly me using it. Don't know the future tho. Quote Link to comment
trurl Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, Mihle said: Is it really worth getting an UPS for unRAID tho If your power goes out, you will get an automatic parity check for unclean shutdown, and probably some sync errors you need to correct. Even some possibility for corruption Quote Link to comment
JonathanM Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mihle said: So oversizing an UPS does not make it last longer, it's about max 5 years anyway The UPS itself can last many years longer, the batteries need to be replaced periodically. Oversizing does two things, allows longer runtime, and consume more electricity during normal non-backup running. 4 minutes ago, Mihle said: When do an UPS decide when it's time for the battery to be replaced? Most do a periodic test that simulates a power failure and starts drawing power from the batteries. If the batteries lose voltage faster than normal, the UPS signals a battery failure. Many UPS's also track the calculated runtime based on how much capacity the batteries had when new, and the tested capacity, and signal a failure when the battery is significantly weaker. 7 minutes ago, Mihle said: Btw, my NAS currently is idle around 40w ish, don't quite sure under load. Under full load is the only figure that matters, as shutting down the running system puts it at full load for the duration of the shutdown. Since you can't divine the future, there is no way to know how long the power outage will be, so you must plan to always shut down the system during an outage. That means to properly size a UPS, you find the full load power draw, and the maximum time it takes to do an unplanned shutdown, with all services and VM's being utilized. You then take that power and double the time, and look on the manufacturers spec sheet to find the appropriate UPS. If your system takes 100W at full load, and it requires 5 minutes to shut down, then you need to find a UPS capable of supplying 100W for 10 minutes. This is the minimum size required, and assumes you will configure the server to shut down almost immediately when the power is cut, waiting 1 minute at most. Also keep in mind that your network equipment should also be on the UPS if you plan on communicating with your server after the power goes out and before it's shut down. 14 minutes ago, Mihle said: Is it really worth getting an UPS for unRAID tho? I don't really run much else than Nextcloud and local storage on it where it's currently mostly me using it. Don't know the future tho. Do you keep a full current backup of everything on your server? If so, then you can probably skip a UPS. Quote Link to comment
Mihle Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, trurl said: If your power goes out, you will get an automatic parity check for unclean shutdown, and probably some sync errors you need to correct. Even some possibility for corruption My NAS has experienced maybe 5 times or so that power have gone out the last two years, there have never been any sync errors. Edited October 9, 2020 by Mihle Quote Link to comment
trurl Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mihle said: any sync errors yet 1 Quote Link to comment
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