PSA on SanDisk USBs

[Mattaton]

8 minutes ago, ConnerVT said:

I believe what ChatNoir was getting at is there's a difference between a card reader providing a GUID vs one that provides a unique GUID.

 

This is what is at the root of the issue that this thread discusses.  Many of the counterfeit flash drives don't bother to burn in a unique serial number, but rather just put the same number on every one they crank out (when they bother to do so at all).  These drives work in Unraid for the first person who registers it.  The second person (and everyone else that tries) is out of luck.

I think what was meant (or at least how I took it) is that if I potentially bought a used one on eBay, the GUID may have already been registered with unRAID and therefore would be worthless to me.

I get how it works and what the issues are, which is why I rely on folks like @Hoopster for some real-world experience with a particular device. Unless he is the only one ever successful in using one of these (which I suppose is possible - but it doesn't sound like it), then it probably has a unique GUID per reader, and not per model.

I certainly appreciate the caution! Thanks! 🙂 

[itimpi]

34 minutes ago, Mattaton said:

I think what was meant (or at least how I took it) is that if I potentially bought a used one on eBay, the GUID may have already been registered with unRAID and therefore would be worthless to me.

I get how it works and what the issues are, which is why I rely on folks like @Hoopster for some real-world experience with a particular device. Unless he is the only one ever successful in using one of these (which I suppose is possible - but it doesn't sound like it), then it probably has a unique GUID per reader, and not per model.

I certainly appreciate the caution! Thanks! 🙂 

I am successfully using both the G2 and G3 models with Unraid.    I believe that there is some question as to whether all G3 ones have unique GUIDs but hopefully you will find you are OK.

[Mattaton]

21 minutes ago, itimpi said:

I am successfully using both the G2 and G3 models with Unraid.    I believe that there is some question as to whether all G3 ones have unique GUIDs but hopefully you will find you are OK.

I ended up with G2s, so hopefully I'm good 🙂 

[neuronflow]

Is it possible to use a SD card instead of a USB stick?

I am building a very small NAS system based on an intel N100 and I don't want to sacrifice an USB port.

SD cards can also have unique identifiers and they are able to write large amounts of data (e.g. high-res video recording) for extended time periods, so they seem much better suited for this job than USB sticks?

 

If not is there a low-profile USB stick you can recommend? I want to keep the footprint of my system as minimal as possible.

 

[ConnerVT]

SD cards typically do not provide a unique GUID, and do not work properly as an Unraid boot device.  There are a limited few card readers which will allow for using a SD card, you would need to search through the forum about these.

 

As far as keeping a low profile for a flash drive.  I (and a number of people) use an inexpensive cable from a USB 2.0 motherboard header to USB Type A, and install the flash drive inside my server's case.  I tie wrap the USB connector out of the way, close to the case cover, so it is convienet if I wish to remove it for some reason.

[Lolight]

2 hours ago, ConnerVT said:

I (and a number of people) use an inexpensive cable from a USB 2.0 motherboard header to USB Type A, and install the flash drive inside my server's case.

Or a 9-pin adapter, plugged into the motherboard's USB header.

 

https://www.amazon.com/SinLoon-Female-Motherboard-Header-Adapter-Dual/dp/B0878S6BD5/ref=m_crc_dp_lf_d_t1_d_sccl_2_1/130-5525013-4443804?pd_rd_w=XGyCQ&content-id=amzn1.sym.76a0b561-a7b4-41dc-9467-a85a2fa27c1c&pf_rd_p=76a0b561-a7b4-41dc-9467-a85a2fa27c1c&pf_rd_r=4VSWPNZQRHEY1MPJ0TGT&pd_rd_wg=yxsE8&pd_rd_r=d46fe94b-df1f-4e5d-bda9-7abe6a0c0526&pd_rd_i=B0878S6BD5&psc=1

[jtech007]

On 3/25/2023 at 5:32 PM, jtech007 said:

I recently had a flash drive scare where I thought my original drive was finally going to die on me. I think it's over 10 years old at the point (4Gb HP). Watched Spaceinvader1's video and found the suggested Kingston and Samsung on Amazon, only to come here after I ordered and received those to see that they are probably counterfeit drives. So, I will be returning both per the suggestions of others. That led me on a search to find a backup for my original drive and I found some 16gb HP drives on sale at Office Depot/Max.  The have a unique GUID and work with Unraid though I had to do a manual install. Also, the website and packaging says it's a 16gb drive, but it shows up in windows as 28.8. They are USB 2.0 drives which I know is prefered. https://www.officedepot.com/a/products/5892874/HP-v150w-USB-20-Flash-Drive/

 

I am going to boot up one on my test server and see how long it lasts. 

 

A follow up to my original post. I have used this HP drive for almost a year now with zero issues. I rebooted about 5 days ago to fix a drive issue with no hang ups. Hopefully it will last as long as the last HP one I had before. The still sell them at Office Depot for under $10.00

[Hoopster]

2 hours ago, jtech007 said:

 

A follow up to my original post. I have used this HP drive for almost a year now with zero issues. I rebooted about 5 days ago to fix a drive issue with no hang ups. Hopefully it will last as long as the last HP one I had before. The still sell them at Office Depot for under $10.00

They are good USB drives.  I have been using one for almost a year now on the recommendation of @jtech007

 

It worked when a lot of USB drives (even name brand ones) I had on hand would not work with Unraid.

 

It has been through weekly server reboots as it is used on my backup server which automatically backs up my main server once a week and then is automatically powered off until the next backup.

[tech3475]

Just want to confirm before buying, anyone have any issues with the Samsung fit plus recently?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07HPS8GQM

 

I'm after a low profile USB drive if anyone has any alternative suggestions, preferably around £10.

[JonathanM]

16 hours ago, tech3475 said:

I'm after a low profile USB drive if anyone has any alternative suggestions

Don't use a low profile, mount it inside the case instead. Your motherboard should have USB headers inside, probably 10 pin with one corner pin missing for keying. Adapters are cheap.

If the motherboard is cramped, one of these,

If the motherboard has room,

 

Internal with a full format USB stick is much preferable, no risk of snapping it off, or being removed by accident, plus full size sticks are typically better with heat dissipation, increasing the longevity of the drive.

[tech3475]

6 hours ago, JonathanM said:

Don't use a low profile, mount it inside the case instead. Your motherboard should have USB headers inside, probably 10 pin with one corner pin missing for keying. Adapters are cheap.

If the motherboard is cramped, one of these,

If the motherboard has room,

 

Internal with a full format USB stick is much preferable, no risk of snapping it off, or being removed by accident, plus full size sticks are typically better with heat dissipation, increasing the longevity of the drive.

 

Unfortunately the system I plan on using for the time being lacks a spare internal connectors.

 

If USB 3.x drives are that unreliable I might see if I can track down an older 2.0 drive from a reputable retailer, I've had zero issues (so far) with my two existing systems which use USB 2.0.

[SpencerJ]

3.7.24 Update: Caveat Emptor: Multiple users have run into GUID conflicts with these devices.

I will attempt again to contact Eluteng and ask about this to see if this was a recent manufacturing change or a one-off "bag batch".

 

Another option/alternative to USBs that we've been internally testing and vetting are mSATA adapters/drives:

This USB mSATA adapter (~$10) appears to provide unique GUIDs for Unraid:

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VP2WH73/ 

 

This 32GB mSATA drive works with the above adapter (~$15):

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07543SDVX/ 

 

To avoid having the adapter hang off the back of the machine, these can allow you to mount it inside your case (depending on your system):

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IV6S9S/
• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BRVBQVW/

 

Important notes/caveats:

1. The mSATA drive does not come pre-partitioned, so you have to create one yourself.
2. Windows sees it as a hard disk, not a removable drive, so the USB Creator might not write to it and you may need to use the manual method. The USB Creator worked fine from a Mac for me. 
3. While we're not officially officially recommending these just yet, multiple members of the Unraid team are running OS instances off of this exact set up. We hope to have a full blog/video on this alternative soon.

 

You can use them for Unraid VMs too, just be sure to configure "USB 3.0 (qemu XHCI)" in the VM template (even if the host only has USB 2 hardware!). As always, if you are running the same make/model of drive for both the host and the guest you will need the "USB Manager" plugin to pass the drive to the VM.

 

Major props to @AgentXXL over in our Discord server for doing much of the early testing on this.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7 by SpencerJ
caveat emptor update

[AgentXXL]

On 2/26/2024 at 2:56 PM, SpencerJ said:

Another option/alternative to USBs that we've been internally testing and vetting are mSATA adapters/drives:

This USB mSATA adapter (~$10) appears to provide unique GUIDs for Unraid:

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07VP2WH73/ 

 

This 32GB mSATA drive works with the above adapter (~$15):

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07543SDVX/ 

 

To avoid having the adapter hang off the back of the machine, these can allow you to mount it inside your case (depending on your system):

• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000IV6S9S/
• https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BRVBQVW/

 

Important notes/caveats:

1. The mSATA drive does not come pre-partitioned, so you have to create one yourself.
2. Windows sees it as a hard disk, not a removable drive, so the USB Creator might not write to it and you may need to use the manual method. The USB Creator worked fine from a Mac for me. 
3. While we're not officially officially recommending these just yet, multiple members of the Unraid team are running OS instances off of this exact set up. We hope to have a full blog/video on this alternative soon.

 

You can use them for Unraid VMs too, just be sure to configure "USB 3.0 (qemu XHCI)" in the VM template (even if the host only has USB 2 hardware!). As always, if you are running the same make/model of drive for both the host and the guest you will need the "USB Manager" plugin to pass the drive to the VM.

 

Major props to @AgentXXL over in our Discord server for doing much of the early testing on this.

 

NOTE: This solution is no longer valid as the manufacturer is not longer implementing a unique GUID on the adapter. Sorry for bad news.

 

Thanks Spencer! If folks have a Discord account and want to see my original post, they can find it here:

 

https://discord.com/channels/216281096667529216/786598782870880258/1002363967508861008

 

Edited March 9 by AgentXXL
Update on adapter issue - no longer useable.

[ChatNoir]

Super interesting.

Can you confirm that even if seen as a hard drive, it will not be counted as such for licensing purpose ?

[JonathanM]

4 hours ago, SpencerJ said:

Another option/alternative to USBs that we've been internally testing and vetting are mSATA adapters/drives:

I'd recommend using appropriate insulation to cover the circuit boards if you want to put these inside your case. Either design and 3d print some sort of case for it, or maybe wrap it in Kapton tape.

(generic available for cheap) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017CSQJ6G/

[AgentXXL]

18 minutes ago, JonathanM said:

I'd recommend using appropriate insulation to cover the circuit boards if you want to put these inside your case. Either design and 3d print some sort of case for it, or maybe wrap it in Kapton tape.

(generic available for cheap) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017CSQJ6G/

 

There are some models for a case already available on 3D printing repositories like Thingiverse. I've tried all the ones I could find and none of them are an exact match for the Eluteng adapter. I've been meaning to make one with unRAID engraved into the case, but it's become a back-burner project. Guess I might have to get on that. For now I'm using just the case portion of one of the ones I printed - the end cap where the USB plug sticks out isn't a good fit for the Eluteng adapter so I just left it off.

 

[JonathanM]

4 hours ago, ChatNoir said:

Super interesting.

Can you confirm that even if seen as a hard drive, it will not be counted as such for licensing purpose ?

Pretty sure that Unraid excludes the boot / license volume in the device count regardless of what it is.

 

The real question here is whether the controller circuits that are critical to the GUID license link are going to be more durable long term than regular USB sticks. At least with separately removable media you can more easily use a backup without needing internet access to transfer a license.

[ChatNoir]

3 hours ago, JonathanM said:

Pretty sure that Unraid excludes the boot / license volume in the device count regardless of what it is.

Yeah I realized that some time after I posted. But I figured that having an official answer would still be useful for the Community.

[Miss_Sissy]

On 2/26/2024 at 6:36 AM, JonathanM said:

Don't use a low profile, mount it inside the case instead. Your motherboard should have USB headers inside, probably 10 pin with one corner pin missing for keying. Adapters are cheap.

That's a bad idea if you want to minimize downtime.  

 

I have removable drive trays because I don't want to pull my NAS out of service and disassemble it when something fails.  It's a lot easier to reach behind and swap a thumb drive in the blind than it is to demate all of the cables, pull it out of the shelf, put it on a workbench, remove the cover, swap the thumb drive, replace the cover, put it back into the shelf, and then blindly try to plug the power and network cables into the correct locations.

[ConnerVT]

If you are at the point that you need to swap your flash drive, the few moments it takes to open a cover to retrieve it is inconsequential.  The benefits are preventing it from accidental damage, theft, loss, being removed while server is running, ....

[JonathanM]

7 minutes ago, Sissy said:

That's a bad idea if you want to minimize downtime.  

How so? With all my running servers I've only swapped 3 failed flashdrives in all the years I've been running them. It's not a common occurrence normally.

[Miss_Sissy]

On 2/27/2024 at 4:09 PM, ConnerVT said:

If you are at the point that you need to swap your flash drive, the few moments it takes to open a cover to retrieve it is inconsequential.  The benefits are preventing it from accidental damage, theft, loss, being removed while server is running, ....

 

It takes more than just a few, inconsequential moments for me to get down on the floor and reach in to blindly detach cables and extract the NAS from the bottom shelf of a tightly packed unit in order to remove the cover -- and then reverse the steps to return the NAS to service.  There's a lot more chance for accidental damage in that operation than there is in just swapping an external flash drive.  

 

No one in my home is going to reach behind the NAS to remove, steal, or damage the USB flash drive plugged into the back of it.   If some stranger has broken into my home, I have much bigger concerns than whether they will take the flash drive out of my Unraid server.

 

On 2/27/2024 at 4:11 PM, JonathanM said:

How so? With all my running servers I've only swapped 3 failed flashdrives in all the years I've been running them. It's not a common occurrence normally.

 

 

If installing the flash drive inside of the cabinet adds twenty minutes of extra downtime every ten years, then downtime was not minimized.  I don't need more stress and delays when I'm already dealing with a server that's gone offline.  

 

Nor do I want to be the only person who can swap it since I might be on travel when it fails, just as I was when a NAS drive failed and I had to talk a family member through swapping the drive (illustrating the value of drive trays/sleds and spare, pre-cleared drives ready for installation).

 

What you're suggesting has its merits and it's something I considered when I put the NAS together.  But it was not ideal for me.

Edited February 29 by Sissy

[sonofdbn]

I'm with @Sissy on this. For a long time I used an adapter to run the flashdrive off a USB header on the motherboard, so it was of course inside the case. Was quite happy until one day the flashdrive died. Then I had to open up the server to replace the drive. Much as I love my Fractal Design R5, for me the glass side panel is incredibly difficult to align (too much flex) and closing it up while it's vertical involves a bit of non-techie thumping.

 

(I could place the server on its side, where replacing the panel is a bit easier, but my SATA cables seem to be quite sensitive, so didn't want to do that. Also, with 10 hard drives, it's not a trivial matter to move the server around.)

 

I had to test a few times to find out whether the problem was with the flash drive or the adapter - I think in the end it was indeed a dying flash drive. But after that I thought I might as well just stick the flash drive into one of the USB ports on top of the case. At the very least there would be no worrying about whether the adapter was working.

 

No one else comes near the server, and in my (untidy) situation, there are some many other things that are more likely to be dislodged or knocked over (ethernet cables, UPS cables, network switches and their power cords, etc.)

 

One possible additional advantage to mounting the flashdrive externally, admittedly not tested yet, is that it might be useful if I have a dualboot server. On my other server, I have Win11 installed on an NVME drive that is passed through to a VM. Usually unRAID runs on the server and I access Win11 via the VM. The BIOS boot order is unRAID first, then the Win11 drive.

 

A week or so ago, I managed to mess up the VM (I think when I tried to run WSL2) and could only access Windows by booting into the NVME drive directly. This meant fiddling with the BIOS to change boot device order so that I could boot directly into Windows, trying a Windows fix, and then resetting the boot order to go back to unRAID to test whether the VM was working. This had to repeated every time the fix didn't work, and I ended up having to do this a few times.

 

I think that if I had had the flash drive mounted externally, I could simply have removed it, so that when the BIOS couldn't find it, it would boot into the next item, the Windows NVME drive. After that I could just plug in the flash drive again to boot into unRAID.

 

Haven't tested this out because there hasn't been any reason to open up the case (another R5) to move the internally mounted flash drive).

 

I'm sure there's a better alternative boot process involving GRUB or something similar, but I haven't looked into that.

 

 

 

[JonathanM]

On 2/26/2024 at 9:37 PM, AgentXXL said:

There are some models for a case already available on 3D printing repositories like Thingiverse.

I spent a few hours in blender, here's a rough draft. I can add Unraid text pretty easily, but I just wanted to get a proof of concept going. It's a very tight fit, Printed in PETG, so stringing galore across all the tiny holes. First draft was no ventilation, just the two shells, which printed perfect in PETG, but I wanted airflow possibilities.

 

Have you checked temps after prolonged running yet?

[AgentXXL]

On 2/26/2024 at 7:51 PM, JonathanM said:

Pretty sure that Unraid excludes the boot / license volume in the device count regardless of what it is.

 

The real question here is whether the controller circuits that are critical to the GUID license link are going to be more durable long term than regular USB sticks. At least with separately removable media you can more easily use a backup without needing internet access to transfer a license.

 

@ChatNoir I validated that the USB key or boot device is not counted when using the USB to mSATA adapter. You can go to Tools --> Registration and it will show you the number of drives counted against your license. On my main unRAID server that's 41 drives, but I have 42 if I include the USB to mSATA SSD adapter.